Basic math

[gosox41]

 

White Sox Twins

Year Wins Losses Finish Wins Losses Finish

2001 83 79 3 85 77 2

2002 81 81 2 94 67 1

2003 86 76 2 90 72 1

2004 83 79 2 92 70 1

2005 99 63 1 83 79 3

2006 90 72 3 96 66 1

2007 72 90 4 79 83 3

 

OUtside of 2005, this says a lot about KW and the Sox as an organization. In each of these 7 years, we have had a payroll at least $15 mill more then the Twins and as much as $40 mill more. And outside of the magical 2005 year, we can't finish ahead of these guys let alone have more then one playoff appearance.

 

Why do I bring this up?? Because it shows that KW has to have a change in philosophy. It's been spoken about here a thousand times, and yet every year the same freaking team is trotted out. It's getting to be where mayble KW's slow, old power line up theor will out play good fundamental basbeall with a well balanced team about 10 of the time.

 

Why can't KW get it already? I know we're not done yet this year, but does anyone feel good about the Sox after the last couple of weeks. And some fans make excuses about how we lost our 2 best hitters in 2004 or how TCQ and Crede were hurt this year. And while those have some validity, shall we discuss the players the Twins have lost over the last 7 years?

 

It's time for KW to figure it out and put a balanced team in place that actually knows how to do more hten hit home runs. HR's are exciting, but you know what's more exciting winning. And you can win (and score lots of runs) if you have a more balanced offensive attack then this plodding station to station crapfest.

 

Maybe people reading this will say this has been talked about way too much and it's old news. Appearantly it hasn't been talked about enough to reach KW and his ego.

 

GET SOME GUYS ON THIS TEAM WHO KNOW HOW TO DO MORE THEN SWING FOR THE FENCES

 

[SoxFan562004]

They need better OBP guys. They play 81 games at the Cell, they need to be power based. I agree they need a little more flexability, but a radical change from the power lineup would not be good

[Bhay99]

eh....the twins obviously have better scouts and know how to draft and develop for the ballpark they play in....let's see how much of an advantage they have in 2010.

[greg775]

I feel your pain, but a lot of teams with much higher payrolls than the Twinks have fared way worse than the Twinks.

In reality, we have the team that could/should win at least a division title this year (likely won't, I'm not drinking any koolaid).

We have name pitchers in the bullpen (Dotel, Linebrink, Thornton, Jenks) that on paper are good enough to play on a division titlist.

Considering Floyd and Danks have been terrific, we have the starting staff on paper good enough to win a division.

We have tons of power hitters and a good backstop.

We have a good enough manager though many of you disagree.

 

All we lack is outfield defense and speed ... on paper.

We have the pieces any general manager would be satisfied with, we just can't beat the Twins.

 

That said ... if we blow the division title I could see KW blowing it up. That doesn't mean we'll be a better team next year or five years down the line. No guarantees. We had the team on paper this year to do it.

[Cali]

The only difference is this.....what did the Sox do in '05 that the Twins didnt do any other year?

 

I dont want to be just good enough to make the playoffs every year only to get eliminated in the ALDS. What fun is that? That would be a 1000x more frustrating than this....

[jenksycat]

how many rings do those pesky piranhas have? If given the choice between 4 first round sweeps in the playoffs or 1 ring? I'll take the ring every f***in time.

 

The twins play 82 games in that stupid stadium, which benefits from speedy guys who slap the ball around. The sox play 82 games in a park where a pop-fly has a high chance of going out. Do we need some balance? Sure, but I don't want a team full of fast .260 hitters with 5 HR's either.

 

I'd recommend people put aside the emotion from a tough loss and actually think for a second.

 

-Our 2 biggest needs were OBP and Bullpen. He bought a new bullpen, which for the most part worked out (sans injuries). He then brought in 2 good career OBP guys, which didn't work out so well.

-We now have Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd, Danks, Swisher, and Jenks to build around. I think pretty much any team in the MLB would take those building blocks, especially considering they cost us ~$100 a day in salary.

-BA has shown he can play, so he will either get traded or get a shot. That leaves us with Thome-Konerko-Dye as DH options, and Swisher as a solid 1B option. So we have decent pieces to trade

-You can't "brush aside" injuries to our only 2 All-Star players, our 5th starter, our setup man, our closer, and our first baseman as "minor".

[fathom]

-Our 2 biggest needs were OBP and Bullpen. He bought a new bullpen, which for the most part worked out (sans injuries). He then brought in 2 good career OBP guys, which didn't work out so well.

-We now have Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd, Danks, Swisher, and Jenks to build around. I think pretty much any team in the MLB would take those building blocks, especially considering they cost us ~$100 a day in salary.

-BA has shown he can play, so he will either get traded or get a shot. That leaves us with Thome-Konerko-Dye as DH options, and Swisher as a solid 1B option. So we have decent pieces to trade

-You can't "brush aside" injuries to our only 2 All-Star players, our 5th starter, our setup man, our closer, and our first baseman as "minor".

 

Who were these OBP players we brought in besides Swisher? Please tell me you weren't saying OC and his career .322 OBP was included i that. Also, Swisher loses any value he might have as a solid offensive contributor by putting him at first base. KW failed to get this team what it really needed....a leadoff hitter!

[caulfield12]

I feel your pain, but a lot of teams with much higher payrolls than the Twinks have fared way worse than the Twinks.

In reality, we have the team that could/should win at least a division title this year (likely won't, I'm not drinking any koolaid).

We have name pitchers in the bullpen (Dotel, Linebrink, Thornton, Jenks) that on paper are good enough to play on a division titlist.

Considering Floyd and Danks have been terrific, we have the starting staff on paper good enough to win a division.

We have tons of power hitters and a good backstop.

We have a good enough manager though many of you disagree.

 

All we lack is outfield defense and speed ... on paper.

We have the pieces any general manager would be satisfied with, we just can't beat the Twins.

 

That said ... if we blow the division title I could see KW blowing it up. That doesn't mean we'll be a better team next year or five years down the line. No guarantees. We had the team on paper this year to do it.

 

 

The problem is blow up what? How? It's going to be very difficult to deal Thome, now that his option has vested.

 

That leaves the obvious, like trading Vazquez...to make a bigger change, you need to deal Konerko, Dye and let Uribe go. I think the idea of Uribe as the everyday 3B for next season is going out the window quickly.

 

He's best as a supersub or starter on another team. Ramirez is wearing down now, finally.

 

The pieces that have the most value to other teams (outside of the obvious 4) are going to be Jenks, Thornton, Konerko and Dye.

 

As someone mentioned, Nick Swisher is, at best, an average MLB 1B, because he's not a consistent 100 RBI type of player. He'll hit 20-30 homers (many expected 30-40 this year), but his .230-250 average weighs down his RBI numbers.

 

The other problem with ditching Dye and Konerko is that the home run/power game is our biggest weapon and home field advantage. Retooling our team to mimic the Twins isn't essential.

 

It is essential that we get more players like Ramirez and Tadahito Iguchi to complement the middle of the line-up. Right now, our offense is dead in the water...we need a 2009 version of Pods, and it's very hard to find someone like that. They just don't grow on trees. And they have to play SS/2B, unless you trade Dye and move Swisher/Quentin to RF.

 

So KW simply has to scour the majors and minors for a CF and 2B/SS (depending on where he wants to put Ramirez, and I think SS is the obvious place, it's easier to find offense on the market (trade or FA) than at SS. And paying a very good SS, traditionally, is twice as expensive as a solid/average MLB 2B.

Edited September 24, 2008 by caulfield12

[Middle Buffalo]

how many rings do those pesky piranhas have? If given the choice between 4 first round sweeps in the playoffs or 1 ring? I'll take the ring every f***in time.

 

The twins play 82 games in that stupid stadium, which benefits from speedy guys who slap the ball around. The sox play 82 games in a park where a pop-fly has a high chance of going out. Do we need some balance? Sure, but I don't want a team full of fast .260 hitters with 5 HR's either.

 

I'd recommend people put aside the emotion from a tough loss and actually think for a second.

 

-Our 2 biggest needs were OBP and Bullpen. He bought a new bullpen, which for the most part worked out (sans injuries). He then brought in 2 good career OBP guys, which didn't work out so well.

-We now have Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd, Danks, Swisher, and Jenks to build around. I think pretty much any team in the MLB would take those building blocks, especially considering they cost us ~$100 a day in salary.

-BA has shown he can play, so he will either get traded or get a shot. That leaves us with Thome-Konerko-Dye as DH options, and Swisher as a solid 1B option. So we have decent pieces to trade

-You can't "brush aside" injuries to our only 2 All-Star players, our 5th starter, our setup man, our closer, and our first baseman as "minor".

The Twins won the World Series in 1987 and 1991.

 

Oh, and I know it's being a little picky, but both teams play 81 home games.

 

 

[greg775]

I wish we'd pick a different team to acquire players from than the Royals. How bout the Pirates in the future. Some of their guys might be good. They should be our new farm system.

[BearSox]

White Sox Twins

Year Wins Losses Finish Wins Losses Finish

2001 83 79 3 85 77 2

2002 81 81 2 94 67 1

2003 86 76 2 90 72 1

2004 83 79 2 92 70 1

2005 99 63 1 83 79 3

2006 90 72 3 96 66 1

2007 72 90 4 79 83 3

 

OUtside of 2005, this says a lot about KW and the Sox as an organization. In each of these 7 years, we have had a payroll at least $15 mill more then the Twins and as much as $40 mill more. And outside of the magical 2005 year, we can't finish ahead of these guys let alone have more then one playoff appearance.

 

Why do I bring this up?? Because it shows that KW has to have a change in philosophy. It's been spoken about here a thousand times, and yet every year the same freaking team is trotted out. It's getting to be where mayble KW's slow, old power line up theor will out play good fundamental basbeall with a well balanced team about 10 of the time.

 

Why can't KW get it already? I know we're not done yet this year, but does anyone feel good about the Sox after the last couple of weeks. And some fans make excuses about how we lost our 2 best hitters in 2004 or how TCQ and Crede were hurt this year. And while those have some validity, shall we discuss the players the Twins have lost over the last 7 years?

 

It's time for KW to figure it out and put a balanced team in place that actually knows how to do more hten hit home runs. HR's are exciting, but you know what's more exciting winning. And you can win (and score lots of runs) if you have a more balanced offensive attack then this plodding station to station crapfest.

 

Maybe people reading this will say this has been talked about way too much and it's old news. Appearantly it hasn't been talked about enough to reach KW and his ego.

 

GET SOME GUYS ON THIS TEAM WHO KNOW HOW TO DO MORE THEN SWING FOR THE FENCES

Great post, I completely agree.

[RockRaines]

eh....the twins obviously have better scouts and know how to draft and develop for the ballpark they play in....let's see how much of an advantage they have in 2010.

well that drafting isnt going to help them much longer because they are building a new outside/grass ballpark.

[chisoxdavid]

What have the Twins done in the playoffs? Sure they are saving money but they havent won anything.

[elrockinMT]

That was alot of numbers and I'm not good at math

[elrockinMT]

well that drafting isnt going to help them much longer because they are building a new outside/grass ballpark.

 

 

I belieev that is a very astute observation and I agree. Get them out of that so called baseball dome they are in and on grass and things even out in Minny especially between the Twins and Sox

[jenksycat]

Who were these OBP players we brought in besides Swisher? Please tell me you weren't saying OC and his career .322 OBP was included i that. Also, Swisher loses any value he might have as a solid offensive contributor by putting him at first base. KW failed to get this team what it really needed....a leadoff hitter!

 

They thought they had one in J.O.

 

Swisher plays RF/LF while we get rid of one of PK/JD/Thome then.

 

He made a run at Hunter, Rowand, Fukindome, etc. What more did you want him to do? And you cannot respond with "well we should have just traded a couple guys for X leadoff hitter" because nobody here knows a single damn thing that happens in the front office.

 

But in the end, this is a team that has been in 1st place for a good majority of the season. Despite injuries to key players, they have hung in there. So despite whatever emotional outburst people have after each loss, you're still b****ing about a 1st place team.

[fathom]

They thought they had one in J.O.

 

Swisher plays RF/LF while we get rid of one of PK/JD/Thome then.

 

He made a run at Hunter, Rowand, Fukindome, etc. What more did you want him to do? And you cannot respond with "well we should have just traded a couple guys for X leadoff hitter" because nobody here knows a single damn thing that happens in the front office.

 

But in the end, this is a team that has been in 1st place for a good majority of the season. Despite injuries to key players, they have hung in there. So despite whatever emotional outburst people have after each loss, you're still b****ing about a 1st place team.

 

 

You said we brought in 2 OBP guys this offseason. Who's the other guy besides Swisher?

[whitesoxfan101]

You said we brought in 2 OBP guys this offseason. Who's the other guy besides Swisher?

 

Quentin. He had a long history of OBP awesomeness in the minor leagues and even a dummy like me predicted he's finish with a very high OBP this year.

[fathom]

Quentin. He had a long history of OBP awesomeness in the minor leagues and even a dummy like me predicted he's finish with a very high OBP this year.

 

No, that wasn't who he was talking about, as he said the two OBP guys that were acquired both were disappointing this season. I thought he meant OC, and I pointed out this his OBP was mediocre in his career.

[jenksycat]

No, that wasn't who he was talking about, as he said the two OBP guys that were acquired both were disappointing this season. I thought he meant OC, and I pointed out this his OBP was mediocre in his career.

 

ok, you caught me red handed. Will you address any other points or just stick with that one?

 

And he still brought in OC to fill a need at SS. So while it wasn't OBP, it wasn't just for s***s and giggles.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Jenksy Cat

[whitesoxfan101]

No, that wasn't who he was talking about, as he said the two OBP guys that were acquired both were disappointing this season. I thought he meant OC, and I pointed out this his OBP was mediocre in his career.

 

Ahh ok. Maybe I should read the whole thread before posting next time.

[fathom]

ok, you caught me red handed. Will you address any other points or just stick with that one?

 

Sure, if this team actually thought they could compete with Jerry Owens as their leadoff hitter, then shame on them.

[jenksycat]

Sure, if this team actually thought they could compete with Jerry Owens as their leadoff hitter, then shame on them.

 

yeah they should have just traded gio+josh fields for Ichiro or something.