Carlos Gomez

[whitesoxbrian]

Really?

Yeah.

[rangercal]

I'd trade Jenks for Gomez straight up, any day.

 

I'd quit watching baseball if that happened. I'm happy you are not GM.

[whitesoxbrian]

I'd trade a guy who be a middle relief guy in 2 years for a guy who is 22 and has all the potential in the world. Carlos Gomez's don't just come around every year in 3's or anything.

[lostfan]

I'd trade a guy who be a middle relief guy in 2 years for a guy who is 22 and has all the potential in the world. Carlos Gomez's don't just come around every year in 3's or anything.

We already have Carlos Gomez on this team, except he is a few years older and his name is actually Jerry Owens. Would you trade a Jerry Owens for a Bobby Jenks?

 

I don't know what "world of potential" everyone is talking about by the way... he hit a pretty average .278 BA and an okay .336 in the minors. Didn't blow anybody away there. Dewayne Wise's numbers are just a couple shades below that.

Edited September 27, 2008 by lostfan

[gosox41]

Add in like 30 bunt hits...

 

He's not a professional hitter. He's just using his speed at this point. He's also getting some fat fastballs 24% of the time too.

 

 

Then the Sox should be truly embarassed that they let a guy like this beat us.

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

We already have Carlos Gomez on this team, except he is a few years older and his name is actually Jerry Owens. Would you trade a Jerry Owens for a Bobby Jenks?

 

I don't know what "world of potential" everyone is talking about by the way... he hit a pretty average .278 BA and an okay .336 in the minors. Didn't blow anybody away there. Dewayne Wise's numbers are just a couple shades below that.

Jerry Owens couldn't hold Carlos Gomez's jock.

[WilliamTell]

Carlos Gomez just did the Fox lineup for the Twins and proclaimed himself as Superman while showing his Superman shirt under his jersey.

[almagest]

Carlos Gomez just did the Fox lineup for the Twins and proclaimed himself as Superman while showing his Superman shirt under his jersey.

I didn't know Superman meant .660 OPS. What a tool.

[santo=dorf]

Well superman just grounded into an inning ending double play with a runner on third.

 

f*** him and his overbite.

[WilliamTell]

I didn't know Superman meant .660 OPS. What a tool.

 

lol Anderson and Wise have a higher OPS than he does. OK Superman.

[lostfan]

Jerry Owens couldn't hold Carlos Gomez's jock.

Yeah, the difference in OPS during their time in the major leagues has been simply staggering. About 25 points, Gomez accomplishing that with a major assist from the Sox.

 

Carlos Gomez sucks.

[chw42]

I'd trade Jenks for him.

 

Wow, way to overreact because the guy had a good couple of games against us. Are you all jumping on the Hawk Harrelson bandwagon proclaiming Gomez as the next Ricky Henderson? Please...

[witesoxfan]

I would like Gomez as much as I liked Erstad. If anything, I'd trade damn near anybody on the team for Denard Span. A CF with an arm who hits for average, is disciplined at the plate, and can steal bases...he's a 4-tool outfielder with an eye. Carlos Gomez might have more power, but he's also a moron of a baseball player who can't draw a walk and misreads a lot of balls in CF.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, the difference in OPS during their time in the major leagues has been simply staggering. About 25 points, Gomez accomplishing that with a major assist from the Sox.

 

Carlos Gomez sucks.

Gomez is 9 months older than Gordon Beckham. Compare him to an almost 30 Jerry Owens. Good example. You have the most accurate name on soxtalk.

[almagest]

Gomez is 9 months older than Gordon Beckham. Compare him to an almost 30 Jerry Owens. Good example. You have the most accurate name on soxtalk.

Jerry Owens career minors (6 years): .291 .359 .359 (.718 OPS) 162 SB 66 CS (71%)

Carlos Gomez career minors (4 years): .278 .336 .399 (.735 OPS) 141 SB 39 CS (78%)

 

So Owens gets on base more and gets more hits, but Gomez has more power. a .017 point difference in OPS is basically nothing. Gomez is also a little better at stealing. But yeah, basically the same player.

 

Also, Owens didn't start in Low A until he was 22, due to football. He's been a couple years behind the curve development-wise. Owens is also NOT "almost 30". He's 27.

 

Gomez probably has a much higher ceiling due to his young age, but who knows if he'll reach it? If his attitude to this point ("The .660 OPS Superman") is any indication, he won't. And to say he and Owens are anything but almost the same player based on their careers to this point is silly.

[lostfan]

Gomez is 9 months older than Gordon Beckham. Compare him to an almost 30 Jerry Owens. Good example. You have the most accurate name on soxtalk.

That is very original. You are the first person to ever think to say that.

 

Jerry Owens career minors (6 years): .291 .359 .359 (.718 OPS) 162 SB 66 CS (71%)

Carlos Gomez career minors (4 years): .278 .336 .399 (.735 OPS) 141 SB 39 CS (78%)

 

So Owens gets on base more and gets more hits, but Gomez has more power. a .017 point difference in OPS is basically nothing. Gomez is also a little better at stealing. But yeah, basically the same player.

 

Also, Owens didn't start in Low A until he was 22, due to football. He's been a couple years behind the curve development-wise. Owens is also NOT "almost 30". He's 27.

 

Gomez probably has a much higher ceiling due to his young age, but who knows if he'll reach it? If his attitude to this point ("The .660 OPS Superman") is any indication, he won't. And to say he and Owens are anything but almost the same player based on their careers to this point is silly.

This about summarizes everything. Seriously... on paper, stat-wise, slice it any way you want but they are about 90% the same player. Literally the only major differences between them are a.) Gomez is 22, Owens is 27 and b.) Gomez is Hispanic, Owens is black. If you think Jerry Owens sucks, so does Carlos Gomez. If you think Carlos Gomez is the goods, so is Jerry Owens. Both of them should be 4th or 5th outfielders in the majors.

[Dick Allen]

Jerry Owens career minors (6 years): .291 .359 .359 (.718 OPS) 162 SB 66 CS (71%)

Carlos Gomez career minors (4 years): .278 .336 .399 (.735 OPS) 141 SB 39 CS (78%)

 

So Owens gets on base more and gets more hits, but Gomez has more power. a .017 point difference in OPS is basically nothing. Gomez is also a little better at stealing. But yeah, basically the same player.

 

Also, Owens didn't start in Low A until he was 22, due to football. He's been a couple years behind the curve development-wise. Owens is also NOT "almost 30". He's 27.

 

Gomez probably has a much higher ceiling due to his young age, but who knows if he'll reach it? If his attitude to this point ("The .660 OPS Superman") is any indication, he won't. And to say he and Owens are anything but almost the same player based on their careers to this point is silly.

If you really think Jerry Owens and Carlos Gomez are anywhere the same player, lets just say, I'm glad you're not a White Sox scout, or if you are or ever were, I can understand the condition of the system. What about defense? What about throwing arms? Comparing what Jerry Owens does when he's 25 or 26 or 27 to what Carlos Gomez does offensively when he's 19 or 20 or 21 is beyond silly. Gomez is a far better prospect. He will make a lot more money playing baseball than Jerry Owens.

Look at Robin Ventura when he was 22 offensively in the major leagues.

[almagest]

If you really think Jerry Owens and Carlos Gomez are anywhere the same player, lets just say, I'm glad you're not a White Sox scout, or if you are or ever were, I can understand the condition of the system. What about defense? What about throwing arms? Comparing what Jerry Owens does when he's 25 or 26 or 27 to what Carlos Gomez does offensively when he's 19 or 20 or 21 is beyond silly. Gomez is a far better prospect. He will make a lot more money playing baseball than Jerry Owens.

Look at Robin Ventura when he was 22 offensively in the major leagues.

Ventura played all of 1 season in AA at the age of 21. By the time Ventura had 5 years of pro experience (what Gomez has now), he put up MLB OPS+ of 57 (Sept. of 1989, at the age of 21), 83, 126, 127, and 120. He was also one of the best defensive 3rd basemen in the league after his first year or two (Gold Glove in 1991). Gomez, on the other hand, has put up an OPS+ of 79 in his only season in MLB, his 5th pro season, at the age of 22 -- worse than Ventura's age 22 season, when Ventura only had 2 years of pro experience.

 

Gomez's defense relies largely on speed because he gets bad reads. He does have a solid arm, though -- not the most important thing for a CF. Overall, I doubt anyone considers him a good defensive player. Hmm... sounds a lot like what people say about Owens, minus the good arm...

 

So, let's see here... you compare Gomez to Ventura, which is a terrible comparison because they haven't had anywhere near the same career path so far (as I've shown), then you mention defense, which Gomez isn't very good on and appears to parallel (gasp!) Jerry Owens the most. Are you going to keep trying, or will you finally admit you've got a chubby for Superman .660 and are selectively picking and making up evidence to support your points?

[Dick Allen]

Ventura played all of 1 season in AA at the age of 21. By the time Ventura had 5 years of pro experience (what Gomez has now), he put up MLB OPS+ of 57 (Sept. of 1989, at the age of 21), 83, 126, 127, and 120. He was also one of the best defensive 3rd basemen in the league after his first year or two (Gold Glove in 1991). Gomez, on the other hand, has put up an OPS+ of 79 in his only season in MLB, his 5th pro season, at the age of 22 -- worse than Ventura's age 22 season, when Ventura only had 2 years of pro experience.

 

Gomez's defense relies largely on speed because he gets bad reads. He does have a solid arm, though -- not the most important thing for a CF. Overall, I doubt anyone considers him a good defensive player. Hmm... sounds a lot like what people say about Owens, minus the good arm...

 

So, let's see here... you compare Gomez to Ventura, which is a terrible comparison because they haven't had anywhere near the same career path so far (as I've shown), then you mention defense, which Gomez isn't very good on and appears to parallel (gasp!) Jerry Owens the most. Are you going to keep trying, or will you finally admit you've got a chubby for Superman .660 and are selectively picking and making up evidence to support your points?

The only thing I said was Owens couldn't hold Gomez's jock. You said they are essentially the same player. I used Ventura as a 22 year old just to show that at that age numbers don't mean a lot. Ask a scout. Numbers for a 18 19 20 21 year old in the minor leagues aren't very important. For an older player they become more significant. If I were a GM and I could have either to trade, I know I could get a lot more for Gomez than I could for Owens. Gomez sure got a horrible read on AJ's ball last week didn't he?

[almagest]

The only thing I said was Owens couldn't hold Gomez's jock. You said they are essentially the same player. I used Ventura as a 22 year old just to show that at that age numbers don't mean a lot. Ask a scout. Numbers for a 18 19 20 21 year old in the minor leagues aren't very important. For an older player they become more significant. If I were a GM and I could have either to trade, I know I could get a lot more for Gomez than I could for Owens. Gomez sure got a horrible read on AJ's ball last week didn't he?

Except Ventura's numbers were at 22 in the majors, after only 1 year in the minors. Gomez has had 4 years in the minors. You keep glossing over this fact. You also gloss over Ventura's stellar college numbers, which Gomez hasn't even approached in any of his minor league seasons. I also sincerely doubt scouts will tell you numbers don't matter from 18-21. Most every scouting report I've seen mentions things like K/BB ratio. I bet that can tell you a lot about a player at any age -- Gomez has a "stellar" 82 BB / 250 K rate in 4 minor league seasons. Gomez also has an even more "stellar" 33 BB / 168 K rate in about 1.5 major league seasons. So, he has essentially no discipline so far, which sure doesn't help a speed guy. The stats I posted earlier also shows he has little power (low SLG), and can't hit much or walk (low AVG/OBP). Maybe you're right, and numbers don't matter that much at a young age, but Gomez has to improve in every single aspect of his game (besides speed) to become a good player, and he's going to have to improve a lot to earn that "5 tool player".

 

Also, I like how you, a fan, are telling me, a fan, that I need to "ask a scout" about all these things. Since when did you go to scouting school and suddenly learn how to evaluate talent? You know no more than I do about it, except I at least have SOME evidence to back my opinion up.

[Dick Allen]

Except Ventura's numbers were at 22 in the majors, after only 1 year in the minors. Gomez has had 4 years in the minors. You keep glossing over this fact. You also gloss over Ventura's stellar college numbers, which Gomez hasn't even approached in any of his minor league seasons. I also sincerely doubt scouts will tell you numbers don't matter from 18-21. Most every scouting report I've seen mentions things like K/BB ratio. I bet that can tell you a lot about a player at any age -- Gomez has a "stellar" 82 BB / 250 K rate in 4 minor league seasons. Gomez also has an even more "stellar" 33 BB / 168 K rate in about 1.5 major league seasons. So, he has essentially no discipline so far, which sure doesn't help a speed guy. The stats I posted earlier also shows he has little power (low SLG), and can't hit much or walk (low AVG/OBP). Maybe you're right, and numbers don't matter that much at a young age, but Gomez has to improve in every single aspect of his game (besides speed) to become a good player, and he's going to have to improve a lot to earn that "5 tool player".

 

Also, I like how you, a fan, are telling me, a fan, that I need to "ask a scout" about all these things. Since when did you go to scouting school and suddenly learn how to evaluate talent? You know no more than I do about it, except I at least have SOME evidence to back my opinion up.

I do know several scouts. I never said numbers don't matter, I said they weren't all that important. Its what you can become being more important than what you currently are. You now are using Ventura's numbers in college using aluminum bats vs. Gomez playing professional baseball with wooden bats? That is as crazy as it gets. As 22 year olds, they were major league hitters needing to improve. Of course Gomez has to improve, but there's a very reasonable chance of that happening. Many don't like his brashness, but as I said earlier in the thread, I bet if he was a White Sox you and others would have a different opinion of him. I bet you wouldn't think he was a Jerry Owens clone if he was a White Sox.

[almagest]

I do know several scouts. I never said numbers don't matter, I said they weren't all that important. Its what you can become being more important than what you currently are. You now are using Ventura's numbers in college using aluminum bats vs. Gomez playing professional baseball with wooden bats? That is as crazy as it gets. As 22 year olds, they were major league hitters needing to improve. Of course Gomez has to improve, but there's a very reasonable chance of that happening. Many don't like his brashness, but as I said earlier in the thread, I bet if he was a White Sox you and others would have a different opinion of him. I bet you wouldn't think he was a Jerry Owens clone if he was a White Sox.

So what do these scouts say about Gomez? What has his mediocre 1.5 seasons on the majors done to impress them? Nothing about what Gomez currently is, or has been in the minors, points to him becoming anything special. Quite simply, he has a bunch of raw tools he hasn't done anything impressive with in 5 years.

 

And no, I wouldn't want him on the Sox. He's all attitude, no ability. When he puts up an OPS of .800 or better at ANY professional level, he can punch his chest and scream and yell all he wants.

 

Oh, and I guess Ventura's 3-time All-American, 58-game hitting streak, Golden Spikes Award, Dick Howser Trophy, .428 batting average, .792 slugging percentage, 302 RBI (in 3 years), and inaugural induction into the College Baseball Hall of Fame mean absolutely nothing because he hit with a metal bat. Right. None of that comes close to Gomez's magnificent .735 career MiLB OPS.

 

Seriously, do you think before you post some of this? It took me all of 1 minute to check Wikipedia and find Ventura's gaudy college career numbers.

 

You are right about one thing, though. Both were 22 year olds who need(ed) to improve. Except Ventura actually had a track record that indicated he had a good shot to improve -- Gomez has nothing but hype.

[Dick Allen]

So what do these scouts say about Gomez? What has his mediocre 1.5 seasons on the majors done to impress them? Nothing about what Gomez currently is, or has been in the minors, points to him becoming anything special. Quite simply, he has a bunch of raw tools he hasn't done anything impressive with in 5 years.

 

And no, I wouldn't want him on the Sox. He's all attitude, no ability. When he puts up an OPS of .800 or better at ANY professional level, he can punch his chest and scream and yell all he wants.

 

Oh, and I guess Ventura's 3-time All-American, 58-game hitting streak, Golden Spikes Award, Dick Howser Trophy, .428 batting average, .792 slugging percentage, 302 RBI (in 3 years), and inaugural induction into the College Baseball Hall of Fame mean absolutely nothing because he hit with a metal bat. Right. None of that comes close to Gomez's magnificent .735 career MiLB OPS.

 

Seriously, do you think before you post some of this? It took me all of 1 minute to check Wikipedia and find Ventura's gaudy college career numbers.

 

You are right about one thing, though. Both were 22 year olds who need(ed) to improve. Except Ventura actually had a track record that indicated he had a good shot to improve -- Gomez has nothing but hype.

Gomez was playing rookie professional ball at 18. You really think Ventura would put up the same numbers he did in college in rookie ball? Compare them at the same levels. How come Gomez in AA as a 20 year old had a higher OPS than Ventura had as a 21 year old in AA? You are the one that doesn't think. You are the one that has already written off a 22 year old talent because when he was 18 he didn't tear up the minor leagues. This is why I'm using Ventura as an example. Talented 22 year olds in the major leagues tend to improve. Hard for you to believe I'm sure. But even if he only improves slightly, and I think he'll improve You can't compare college stats with professional stats. You're boasting about a .428 college average, that turned into a .249 major league average with no power as a 22 year old. The funny thing is my point still is Jerry Owens can't hold Carlos Gomez's jock. Why don't you email KW and ask if he would trade Owens for Gomex. I bet he would say yes. I bet he would even give up more. Why don't you call into a radio program when they have some baseball people on and tell them how Jerry Owens is the same player as Carlos Gomez? Owens has a career sluggling pct. of .312. Gomez is 50 points higher as a 22 year old rookie. Yeah, they are the same player. Saying Carlos Gomez has no abililty while slamming me saying I don't think, is beyond hilarious.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Dick Allen

[danman31]

Carlos Gomez is awful at baseball. Stop trying to sugarcoat him into any sort of a talent. He has none. Any player who can't post a .800 OPS in the minors has no chance of ever being a useful Major League hitter. His best OPS in the minors was in the PCL, .777. He never walks, can't hit for a high enough average to make up for it, and doesn't have any power. He's never hit even .290, never hit 10 HRs, and has only posted a useful walk rate once. I don't care how old he is, he's overmatched in the Majors. Just because he has speed and solid d to put him on the roster doesn't mean he is a real Major League hitter. He's not.

[whitesoxbrian]

Yeah, the Twins got back a piece of crap for the best pitcher in baseball. Good point.