Twins have "internal discussions" about Cabrera and Crede

[Brian]

Sabean probably has an offer to give Crede as soon as he can.

[Kalapse]

Ordonez came to the majors too late to do much more than get 2,000 hits in his career.

 

2) He's not a true home run hitter, and the players with the homers get the most attention from voters (if the voters speculate those are legit #'s)

 

3) He's an average (at best) outfielder...certainly not Roberto Clemente or Vladimir Guerrero.

 

Actually, I think Carlos Lee will end up with higher HR and RBI numbers when both their careers are over...but neither will get even 10% of the votes to gain HOF entrance. There's just a difference between very good/almost great and the Hall of Fame.

That's why I said borderline. He's not going to get in but a career .300-.310 AVG, ~350 career HR, ~2,400 career hits, 6 All Star appearances, 3 silver sluggers, a batting title and a second place finish in MVP voting is more than enough to garner consideration.

[Kalapse]

Ok...is Figgins a FA or not?!? A lot my hinge on whether Texiara resigns with LA IMO.... Nothing is a a given...but I really think prying Figgins over to this team is a priority for Kenny this offseason. Either Figgins or Roberts. Just my 2¢...

Figgins is not a free agent. He'll be arbitration eligible in '09 and hit free agency following next season.

[almagest]

Figgins is not a free agent. He'll be arbitration eligible in '09 and hit free agency following next season.

Everything I've seen shows that he's a free agent following the 2008 season.

 

[Kalapse]

Everything I've seen shows that he's a free agent following the 2008 season.

Figgins' service number will be 5.145 at season's end. That'll put him 27 days short of free agency meaning he'll have to wait another season before filing. He'll be a free agent following the 2009 season, anything or anyone that says otherwise is either wrong or is under the impression that the Angels will non-tender him this offseason.

[witesoxfan]

He had a .705 OPS and lead the AL in outs made with 509. Screw him and his misleading batting average.

 

You'll generally make a lot of outs when you hit at the top of the order for any team when you play 161 games. He's a sound fundamental hitter who does a lot of things very well other than hit for power.

 

As I said before, I wouldn't mind him coming back, understand that he won't, and am perfectly fine with it. It's just a bit hypocritical that people want to become more of a middle of the road team where it's not do or die every game (other than game 3 against the Rays) where the team hits for average, advances from 1st to 3rd, can lay down a bunt, steal a base, play good defense, not strike out, and whatever the hell else there is. I understand not liking him because he's a douche in the clubhouse, but not liking him because he puts up mediocre numbers when he's arguably exactly what this lineup was lacking in previous seasons isn't really that cool.

[caulfield12]

I just think it's a matter of playing "winning" baseball, and finding complementary players that fit in and approach the game in the correct manner...that's why I am personally disposed to like someone like Casey Blake or even Nick Punto, despite his egregious slides into first base.

 

Ozuna had some of these characteristics as well...players that just don't go up there hacking away but approach every at-bat with intention and purpose in mind.

 

We had Rowand...Erstad was like this as well, but he was well past his prime (due to injuries) when we got him...it's not necessarily adding a bunch of "rabbits" (Ozzie's term) but finding players that do what they're supposed to do, depending on the situation. Professionals, I guess you'd call them. The problem is we use the label "grinder" so often, but we need "faster/younger/grinder" players to mix in and around the veteran core to continue to get the best of the veterans and keep the team from becoming stagnant.

 

Despite my reservations, I think Cabrera is a winning ballplayer, does many little things well, and is usually on playoff-caliber teams. I don't think that's an accident, any more than Vazquez's winning percentage on losing versus playoff-seeking teams.

 

When you look at it, we did our first major restructuring when we shed Valentin, Ordonez and Carlos Lee before 05...I don't see a similar move this offseason (why fix what's not completely broken), but I do see a lot tinkering, like before the 06 season. I think KW has actually regretted some of those moves, as they made the team better on paper but something happened to the chemistry or synergy or whatever you want to call it from the 05 team that couldn't be recaptured. Many blamed the loss of Everett and Rowand, I think the reality is that the pitchers just got worn down and team wasn't quite as hungry as they were the previous season.

Edited October 6, 2008 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

Jose Valentin had become a pretty mediocre ballplayer when he'd left the White Sox. He got his first 30 homer season in 2004, but he hit .216 for the year and hit .167 in the second half. There was no way he would have come back as anything more than a super-utility player and he was still more than capable of finding regular playing time at that point. Ordonez's knee was messed up and he had a milestone breaking surgery on his knee to even get back to where he was, and adding onto the fact that he hired Boras, there was no chance of him coming back. Lee I tend to agree with but even he was traded for financial purposes and to fill holes. KW mainly did a lot of hole filling in the 04/05 offseason and the team was really pretty complete up and down the entire roster going into the season. I don't think he was getting rid of non-winning players (aside from Lee) as much as there were extenuating circumstances where he couldn't bring back a few of the players.

 

I do agree with what you've said about the 2006 season though...the pitching staff was completely shot and inconsistent throughout, and even though they said they were just as hungry, they lost their edge in the second half of that year. When Slightly above .500 ball gets them into the postseason and another good half gets them 100 wins, and they crapped the bed like they did, they lost something. I still think Ozzie lost a few of the guys that year, especially when Garland stood Ozzie up and didn't hit someone.

[caulfield12]

Which is another reason I think KW keeps bringing in new blood...Ozzie's style works, to a point...but you couldn't keep the same veteran team together with him for 5 years in a row, now that this is possible in the age of free agency anyway.

 

We have, what, 6 players only left from 2005? Konerko, Dye, Uribe, AJ, Buehrle, Jenks? That's a huge roster turnover in 3 seasons. But those are the "core" players who nothing Ozzie does will faze them at all. They're also the players KW trusts most and will go to (along with Thome and now Griffey) if there's the possibility of adding another player to improve the team.

 

I think KW learned with Royce Clayton and Lofton about what the effect of bringing in a veteran who might be susceptible to "attitude" problems, and how that affected other players like Lee and Ordonez, making them a bit more selfish or me first, and Manuel tolerated it and never called the players out like Guillen has consistently done from Day 1, beginning with Thomas (just like Manuel did, ironically enough).

 

Ordonez also was coming off a hernia or "sports hernia" at the time I think, correct? Another problem was that the final years of Ordonez's contract were so backloaded, I think he made $14.5 million in 2004, and there was no way KW was going to give him a long-term deal that averaged that amount....nor an easy way for Ordonez, his agent or the player's union to accept less. Things worked out fine for both sides, I think. I always had concerns about Ordonez adding more weight and being more of a liability in RF as he aged...he's still "serviceable" but he might be a season or two from full-time DH duty IMO.

 

Yep...the whole Sean Tracey incident, the back and forth with Mariotti over it in the newspapers...Garland not hitting a batter he was told to hit. I also think that Jenks just started to fall apart physically and our offense went dead at about the same time, in early August. Those games we lost to "no name" Red Sox pitchers stand out now in my memory...despite great pitching from our starters, even Javy!

Edited October 6, 2008 by caulfield12

[RockRaines]

No way he is 100 times the player Joe is. We could use a Joe Crede clutch hit the past few games/weeks. I do take back calling Uribe a dog. I am sick of him swinging so hard and not producing though.

Yet Uribe has been producing at 3rd base better than Crede was. Oh and he had a clutch hit last night. Crede has had a procedure done on his back, came back, got worse, and now cant play. Explain to me how thats anything like the Maggs situation?

 

2008

100% Uribe: .285 .333 .442

70-100% Crede: .248 .314 .460

Edited October 6, 2008 by RockRaines

[caulfield12]

Yet Uribe has been producing at 3rd base better than Crede was. Oh and he had a clutch hit last night. Crede has had a procedure done on his back, came back, got worse, and now cant play. Explain to me how thats anything like the Maggs situation?

 

2008

100% Uribe: .285 .333 .442

70-100% Crede: .248 .314 .460

 

 

Well, about $10 million dollars in salary...in all seriousness, the only similarity is that the White Sox can't afford to go into 2009 with the uncertainty of Crede's back situation again. They need to go with Fields or find another option through trade or Free Agency.

 

With Ordonez's situation, it was simply a matter of the numbers not making sense for the White Sox to pay superstar money to a non-superstar. They hid behind the injury excuse, and rightly so, in order to appease the fans and make them feel they at least were considering Magglio, but that decision was made as soon as Ordonez signed a long-term deal with the final year ballooning up to $14.5 million. NO way they could give him a long-term deal, even without any injuries, with that as the baseline/bottom average salary per year, for 3-5 years. It would have been insane IMO, despite the way Magglio has recovered and played in DET. Then again, maybe a healthy Ordonez is more valuable than a $11.5 million Vazquez!!! Except we're paying Dye much less, over a short-term, and he's been just as, if not more, productive. You could argue the merits. But we saved a ton of money in 05 and 06 on JD, vis a via Magglio.

 

Crede would probably like to come to Chicago, at least as a fallback position. Even if it's just a one year deal based almost entirely on incentives. A lot depends on the health exams of the other teams and the prognosis if he gets a guaranteed contract for more than one year or not. It's too risky for the White Sox to chance it...and...as noted, Uribe has actually been about as productive offensively as the 70-80% Crede.