Twins have "internal discussions" about Cabrera and Crede

[witesoxfan]

Let OC go be a cancer with the Twins.

 

I've agreed with a lot that you've said and will still continue to do so, but I don't understand. His teammates don't like him, that I get, but how is OC a cancer? He just seems like the guy that will get a single when a single is necessary (minus Balfour, of course).

 

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing OC resigned, but I obviously doubt that will happen.

[caulfield12]

Wow, that actually could make a lot of sense. CC obviously is gone, and I haven't followed the situation closely enough to know if Sheets is in the Brewers plans. With that said, I have to imagine the Brewers want to continue to contend, and not rebuild. Vazquez would be a real inning eater for them, and a serviceable #2 in the NL.

 

 

I'm onboard with getting Hardy, but it's definitely not going to be straight-up for Vazquez. We'd have to include something else (but not Poreda) to sweeten the pot.

 

 

I wouldn't mind taking a chance on Weeks...I could see something like the old "change of scenery" trade with Vazquez and Weeks switching teams, and the White Sox possibly subsidizing a small part of his salary, like the D-Backs did when they traded us Vazquez. Traditionally, this hasn't been the way KW and JR operate, but I think they might have to consider it in order to offload Vazquez's contract on someone.

 

As we've seen with Floyd and Quentin, one "off season" or a confused season (mentally) or injuries can be overcome...if only the right, supportive environment is there to nurture them back to confidence in their abilities.

 

 

 

[Disco72]

I'm onboard with getting Hardy, but it's definitely not going to be straight-up for Vazquez. We'd have to include something else (but not Poreda) to sweeten the pot.

 

 

I wouldn't mind taking a chance on Weeks...I could see something like the old "change of scenery" trade with Vazquez and Weeks switching teams, and the White Sox possibly subsidizing a small part of his salary, like the D-Backs did when they traded us Vazquez. Traditionally, this hasn't been the way KW and JR operate, but I think they might have to consider it in order to offload Vazquez's contract on someone.

 

As we've seen with Floyd and Quentin, one "off season" or a confused season (mentally) or injuries can be overcome...if only the right, supportive environment is there to nurture them back to confidence in their abilities.

 

While the last month has made all of us sour on Vazquez, I think his trade value is lower than when the Sox traded for him but not so low that the Sox couldn't get Hardy for him without throwing something extra in. Hardy is a very good player, but he's not great. His power is nice (20+ HRs), but his OBP (career .329, .343 in 2008) isn't anything to write home about. He wouldn't solve the "speed" and "OBP" issue, though he is a nice player. Vazquez is still a workhorse (200+ innings) at a league-average (probably better in the NL) ERA.

[elrockinMT]

You don't think Joe Crede will be a clutch hitter again if healthy? I'd rather have Joe Crede at 70 percent than Juan Uribe at 110 percent. THe only good thing of him going to the Twins is he won't be able to increase his speed. He'll still be slow on the basepaths.

 

 

I obviously am a big fan of Joe Crede's and would like to him his sign again with the Sox. I really think we have abetter shot with Joe than making a trade for someone that can do the job at 3B. It will be intersting to see how his medical condition progresses over the winter.

[caulfield12]

Disco nailed it, but I'll add just a bit. Vazquez obviously had a terrible end to the season, but still has a lot of value to teams, especially on the open market. He takes the ball every 5th day, has posted around an 8.30 K/9 the last 3 years, and all the while doing this in a much tougher league. You write like Vazquez has an unmovable contract, but if he were a FA this off-season, he would be looking for a dollar amount higher than 11.5 a year.

 

I would add a bullpen arm to the trade, (Wass,Russell, Link) but thats about as far as I would stretch it.

 

 

I'd like to see him go out and get more than $11.5 million from someone...at any rate, the Brewers are a "small market" team trading a young/affordable player for a very expensive (by their standards) one. If they get swept out the the playoffs and lose Sabathia and Sheets, would they want to add someone like Javier? I just don't know.

 

Normally it's not good to trade position players for starting pitchers (as pitchers are, as a rule, more valuable), but I wouldn't mind this one at all.

 

I just think Javier needs another change of scenery, we'd have an everyday SS again and we'd have basically the money saved on Vazquez to invest in another starting pitcher who more than likely (going by KW's track record with acquiring talent outside the draft) have a much bigger impact than Vazquez has on the South Side.

 

 

[Disco72]

I'd like to see him go out and get more than $11.5 million from someone...at any rate, the Brewers are a "small market" team trading a young/affordable player for a very expensive (by their standards) one. If they get swept out the the playoffs and lose Sabathia and Sheets, would they want to add someone like Javier? I just don't know.

 

Normally it's not good to trade position players for starting pitchers (as pitchers are, as a rule, more valuable), but I wouldn't mind this one at all.

 

I just think Javier needs another change of scenery, we'd have an everyday SS again and we'd have basically the money saved on Vazquez to invest in another starting pitcher who more than likely (going by KW's track record with acquiring talent outside the draft) have a much bigger impact than Vazquez has on the South Side.

 

You make some good points, but with Hardy as the SS, Alexei would be at 2B. Where does our OBP at leadoff come from? That would leave only CF or 3B with the roster as presently constructed. I don't see any legit options in FA, so the Sox would have to trade using our logjam in OF/1B/DH as the bait. I'm not against the move, I'm just not sure if it is the "best" move KW could make. The only FAs that really fit the leadoff bill are Furcal (definitely) and Hudson (a little better than OC but still not "typical" at leadoff). As much as we, as Sox fans, want him gone, Javy is probably the best trading chip the Sox have, especially on a FA pitching market that gets thin after CC. Javy is guaranteed production - you know what you are going to get. He'd be an ideal #2 or #3 for a lot of NLC or NLE teams. I'm not defending Javy - I wrote a 3 page email to my Sox fan friends outlining why I want him voted off Sox island this winter, but I do want to see KW get appropriate value for him in a way that really helps the Sox.

[Kalapse]

I obviously am a big fan of Joe Crede's and would like to him his sign again with the Sox. I really think we have abetter shot with Joe than making a trade for someone that can do the job at 3B. It will be intersting to see how his medical condition progresses over the winter.

If you could have either Joe Crede or Adrian Beltre at 3B next year who would you take? How about Chipper Jones?

[jenksycat]

Your team for what? You want to get rid of 90 HR's and replace them with what? Are the Sox moving away from the Cell?

 

those / mean or, not and. Get rid of one of them.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

He just seems like the guy that will get a single when a single is necessary (minus Balfour, of course).

 

My hatred for him may be blinding me, but what are all these clutch base hits you speak of?

[witesoxfan]

My hatred for him may be blinding me, but what are all these clutch base hits you speak of?

 

I don't know what I was thinking last night when I wrote that, being drunk and all, but what I really meant was that you know exactly what you get with Cabrera. He puts up a good average, puts the ball in play a lot, and plays good defense (not outstanding but good). I just wouldn't mind seeing him back really is all, but there are certainly better options.

[caulfield12]

You make some good points, but with Hardy as the SS, Alexei would be at 2B. Where does our OBP at leadoff come from? That would leave only CF or 3B with the roster as presently constructed. I don't see any legit options in FA, so the Sox would have to trade using our logjam in OF/1B/DH as the bait. I'm not against the move, I'm just not sure if it is the "best" move KW could make. The only FAs that really fit the leadoff bill are Furcal (definitely) and Hudson (a little better than OC but still not "typical" at leadoff). As much as we, as Sox fans, want him gone, Javy is probably the best trading chip the Sox have, especially on a FA pitching market that gets thin after CC. Javy is guaranteed production - you know what you are going to get. He'd be an ideal #2 or #3 for a lot of NLC or NLE teams. I'm not defending Javy - I wrote a 3 page email to my Sox fan friends outlining why I want him voted off Sox island this winter, but I do want to see KW get appropriate value for him in a way that really helps the Sox.

 

 

I think we would be fine with CoCo Crisp leading off. I think he would really take off again if playing in the AL Central again. And it strikes me as the most typical KW move, not very splashy, but solid, and logical the more one chews it over. I'm also thinking that Crisp/Ramirez or even Ramirez/Crisp would be a much better way to spark the top of the line-up than what we presently have. A lot of this depends on Ramirez becoming a bit more patient and raising his walk totals/OBP. BUT, he has all the tools as a hitter for the position. He's a very smart baseball player, has lightning quick hands, I think he could make the adjustment...he certainly can bunt as well as any player on the team and he's usually pretty good at execution. I have a lot more faith in him at 1/2 than Uribe or Brian Anderson, FWIW.

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

What's ironic about the whole debate is when most people call out this teams makeup, and talk about what the offense needs, Cabrera fits pretty much all the things supposedly missing from the team.

 

This isn't defending Cabrera, as he is my least favorite White Sox in the last 5 years, but you can find some humor in it.

 

I agree, and that's why I've brought up the points that I have.

[Disco72]

I think we would be fine with CoCo Crisp leading off. I think he would really take off again if playing in the AL Central again. And it strikes me as the most typical KW move, not very splashy, but solid, and logical the more one chews it over. I'm also thinking that Crisp/Ramirez or even Ramirez/Crisp would be a much better way to spark the top of the line-up than what we presently have. A lot of this depends on Ramirez becoming a bit more patient and raising his walk totals/OBP. BUT, he has all the tools as a hitter for the position. He's a very smart baseball player, has lightning quick hands, I think he could make the adjustment...he certainly can bunt as well as any player on the team and he's usually pretty good at execution. I have a lot more faith in him at 1/2 than Uribe or Brian Anderson, FWIW.

 

I wouldn't hate Crisp. He's had another season to prove that he can perform at a .344ish OBP, and the price would likely be much lower than Roberts as Ellsbury seems to have solidified his hold on CF. Sadly, Crisp's .344 OBP would have been tied for 4th best (with Paulie and JD) on the Pale Hose this year behind TCQ, Thome, and Griffey Jr. He provides a bit more speed on the basepaths than OCab.

 

I agree completely on Uribe and Brian Anderson. Include Wise in that as guys that have no business at the top of the order.

 

For those advocating getting rid of Thome, he's the only left handed power bat the Sox have, and he has very good numbers of the course of a season. There's no way you let him go. It has to be one of Dye/Paulie/Swish that goes unless you can find a LH power bat in FA at a position of need.... and good luck wtih that at SS, 2B, or CF!

 

For the record, I think Swish rebounds next year, but any chance the Orioles would be interested in him as the centerpiece of a Roberts deal? Jones and Markakis have earned their spots, and people seem to like Luke Scott, who wasn't bad this year (.807 OPS). Millar was pretty bad in 2008, so Swish could be an upgrade there. I believe the only other 1B on their 40-man is journeyman minor leaguer Oscar Salazar.

 

(Oh, and thanks for the compliment Tony)

[RockRaines]

You don't think Joe Crede will be a clutch hitter again if healthy? I'd rather have Joe Crede at 70 percent than Juan Uribe at 110 percent. THe only good thing of him going to the Twins is he won't be able to increase his speed. He'll still be slow on the basepaths.

Actually Juan just proved that he is better than Crede at 70 percent. Crede is done. Keep waiting for him to "be healthy."

[greg775]

Are you still waiting for Magglio to be healthy as well? Uribe is a dog. Pure and simple. A clueless hitter who swings sooo hard and misses so often (or fouls the ball off). Please Sox finally say bye to Juan.

[caulfield12]

Uribe was one of the key reasons we won in 2005. For that reason, I would never call him a "dog" or disrespect him. He's limited offensively, is a streak hitter, and has virtual no patience. He is what he is...which is a good back-up, but not a starter for 75-85% of the teams in MLB.

 

I also think he's been exposed a little defensively at 3B on turf. He doesn't have the quick first step that Crede used to have...don't get me wrong, he's made some great defensive plays to save us down the stretch, and we wouldn't have made the playoffs with Fields playing 3B, but the time has come for KW and Uribe to part company and say thanks for the memories, particularly that catch down the line going into the stands in the final game of the World Series, and the first two months after we acquired him, when he was hitting about .400.

 

The thing about Uribe, no matter what, he consistently drove in runners from 3rd with less than 2 outs, he always managed 20 homers and 70+ RBI's, and those are respectable numbers from a SS. Put that together with his defensive ability and arm, he has nothing to be ashamed about as a player.

 

 

[Kalapse]

Are you still waiting for Magglio to be healthy as well? Uribe is a dog. Pure and simple. A clueless hitter who swings sooo hard and misses so often (or fouls the ball off). Please Sox finally say bye to Juan.

1.) Magglio Ordonez is 100X the player Joe Crede ever will be, they're not even comparable. Magglio Ordonez will be a borderline hall of famer by the time he retires.

 

2.) Totally different injuries. There's nothing that says Joe Crede will ever be healthy again, the same was not said about Magglio.

[SoxAce]

1.) Magglio Ordonez is 100X the player Joe Crede ever will be, they're not even comparable. Magglio Ordonez will be a borderline hall of famer by the time he retires.

 

Eh.. depends. If writers and fans would accept him being a former juicer, then yes. So far, especially in this day and age, it's not looking good. Maybe later in time... perhaps.

[greg775]

1.) Magglio Ordonez is 100X the player Joe Crede ever will be, they're not even comparable. Magglio Ordonez will be a borderline hall of famer by the time he retires.

 

No way he is 100 times the player Joe is. We could use a Joe Crede clutch hit the past few games/weeks. I do take back calling Uribe a dog. I am sick of him swinging so hard and not producing though.

[witesoxfan]

Eh.. depends. If writers and fans would accept him being a former juicer, then yes. So far, especially in this day and age, it's not looking good. Maybe later in time... perhaps.

 

Statistically he will be a borderline Hall of Fame player.

[caulfield12]

Ordonez came to the majors too late to do much more than get 2,000 hits in his career.

 

2) He's not a true home run hitter, and the players with the homers get the most attention from voters (if the voters speculate those are legit #'s)

 

3) He's an average (at best) outfielder...certainly not Roberto Clemente or Vladimir Guerrero.

 

Actually, I think Carlos Lee will end up with higher HR and RBI numbers when both their careers are over...but neither will get even 10% of the votes to gain HOF entrance. There's just a difference between very good/almost great and the Hall of Fame.

[almagest]

Uribe was one of the key reasons we won in 2005. For that reason, I would never call him a "dog" or disrespect him. He's limited offensively, is a streak hitter, and has virtual no patience. He is what he is...which is a good back-up, but not a starter for 75-85% of the teams in MLB.

 

I also think he's been exposed a little defensively at 3B on turf. He doesn't have the quick first step that Crede used to have...don't get me wrong, he's made some great defensive plays to save us down the stretch, and we wouldn't have made the playoffs with Fields playing 3B, but the time has come for KW and Uribe to part company and say thanks for the memories, particularly that catch down the line going into the stands in the final game of the World Series, and the first two months after we acquired him, when he was hitting about .400.

 

The thing about Uribe, no matter what, he consistently drove in runners from 3rd with less than 2 outs, he always managed 20 homers and 70+ RBI's, and those are respectable numbers from a SS. Put that together with his defensive ability and arm, he has nothing to be ashamed about as a player.

We've had this discussion about Uribe before. He gets hot for short stretches and can almost carry a team during them, but he also disappears for long stretches, becoming an almost automatic out. All in all, he posts a mid-high .600 OPS which isn't acceptable from a starter. He's proven to be best at the super-sub role, and I wouldn't mind keeping him next year in that role. But not as a starter.

 

[santo=dorf]

I don't know what I was thinking last night when I wrote that, being drunk and all, but what I really meant was that you know exactly what you get with Cabrera. He puts up a good average, puts the ball in play a lot, and plays good defense (not outstanding but good). I just wouldn't mind seeing him back really is all, but there are certainly better options.

He had a .705 OPS and lead the AL in outs made with 509. Screw him and his misleading batting average.

[Wanne]

Ok...is Figgins a FA or not?!? A lot my hinge on whether Texiara resigns with LA IMO.... Nothing is a a given...but I really think prying Figgins over to this team is a priority for Kenny this offseason. Either Figgins or Roberts. Just my 2¢...

[almagest]

Ok...is Figgins a FA or not?!? A lot my hinge on whether Texiara resigns with LA IMO.... Nothing is a a given...but I really think prying Figgins over to this team is a priority for Kenny this offseason. Either Figgins or Roberts. Just my 2¢...

He signed a 3 year deal on Jan 14, 2006, so he should be a free agent, since I didn't see any other contract info on him since then.