4 players that went home AFTER getting to Tampa

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, the studied Javy and Thome

.

 

Who were the non roster guys on the bench in 2005? That would be really interesting to see how it affected their careers.We know Anderson was there every step of the way.

Brian Anderson is one of the popularplayers on the team with his teammates. Like I said before, maybe it doesn't effect future performance, but it will have an effect on your status with teammates. Frankly, I don't think any of the 3 are guys that are good enough to have much of a career if they are perceived as anything but good guys and good teammates. Some mediocre to bad players hang around a long time just because of that. Personally, if I was a guy like Broadway, 24 or 25 years old, spending most of my time playing in the sticks, I would think working out with the team and hanging in the clubhouse for major league playoff games would be cool. There's plenty of time to hang out at home once the playoffs are over.

[Texsox]

Brian Anderson is one of the popularplayers on the team with his teammates. Like I said before, maybe it doesn't effect future performance, but it will have an effect on your status with teammates.

 

We are talking about the same players who will say adios in a heartbeat for a bigger paycheck? Sorry, there are no loyalties in baseball anymore. If there were, Maggs and Thomas would still be on the team. So I can just as easily see the same greedy teammates who are there say, "hey it's a business and they aren't getting paid to be here, so they left, I can understand that". In fact, how often do we hear, "it's a business"?

 

And look how much the fans truly appreciate the loyalty and support angle. Anderson was awesome in 2005. Man, he was on that top rail, leaping over and jumping and really supporting his teammates. Yet at any given time half the board wants him gone.

 

I agree they probably should have stayed. But I don't agree it sent any message to their teammates. I don't think it helped BA in 2006 or 2008 that he hung around. And I don't recall any fans sticking up for him when he sucked because he was so loyal and supported his teammates. Some guys rise to the occasion and others fold. I believe you have to be in the game to learn which you are. I believe you need experience in the game to truly make a difference.

[greg775]

Dotel was worth the cash. 2008 Octavio Dotel was worth every penny of the 5 million he made, no doubt in my mind.

 

I wish I could do my job as poorly as Octavio Dotel and have somebody deem my performance a success. Is baseball so out of pitching that Dotel is considered good? My god that guy when he is bad, and he was bad a lot, is horrific.

I'd agree with Steve Stone's assessment that Thornton was good to great; Dotel was sickeningly bad at times.

Edited October 10, 2008 by greg775

[NorthSideSox72]

I wish I could do my job as poorly as Octavio Dotel and have somebody deem my performance a success. Is baseball so out of pitching that Dotel is considered good? My god that guy when he is bad, and he was bad a lot, is horrific.

I'd agree with Steve Stone's assessment that Thornton was good to great; Dotel was sickeningly bad at times.

Dotel has two settings - on and off. There is no in between. And you know immediately, from the first batter, which Dotel you have that day.

 

But overall, yes, Dotel did do a good job this year. He put up a 1.21 WHIP, a 3.76 ERA, a fairly amazing 12.4 K/9, and hitters had only a .208 average against him. He also posted 21 holds, and only 28% of his inherited runners scored.

 

For your 7th inning guy, that's more than acceptable. The key with Dotel is just making sure you watch him carefully with that first batter, and take him out quickly when needed.

 

 

[greg775]

For your 7th inning guy, that's more than acceptable. The key with Dotel is just making sure you watch him carefully with that first batter, and take him out quickly when needed.

 

But worth the money? My god has baseball dipped in pitching talent if that's the case. I agree I'd be happy with Dotel if Oz has him on a one batter presentation. If that batter slams a double or OD walks the batter ... TAKE HIM OUT! Cause the bad Dotel is a trainwreck to see.

[Kalapse]

But worth the money? My god has baseball dipped in pitching talent if that's the case. I agree I'd be happy with Dotel if Oz has him on a one batter presentation. If that batter slams a double or OD walks the batter ... TAKE HIM OUT! Cause the bad Dotel is a trainwreck to see.

Yes he's worth the damn money. $5M for a middle reliever who's going to increase your chances of victory 75% of the time is an incredibly valuable commodity to have. Maybe you don't have a full grasp on the finances of the game (Chad Bradford, a ROOGY is going to make $3.5M next year), perhaps you didn't see many Sox games this year and Dotel happened to be bad in all the games you watched or maybe you're looking at different stats than I but Octavio Dotel earned his pay this year and to call him an overpaid bum (as you did in another thread) is just ridiculous.

[greg775]

I'm surprised the sight of Dotel the last six weeks hasn't soured him on you at all. I could not stomach his implosions. He's definitely not one of my favorites. I do realize once in a while he'd strike out the side and look unhittable. But his suckiness on several occasions down the stretch I felt was unacceptable for a team fighting for postseason berth and postseason success.

[Heads22]

I'm surprised the sight of Dotel the last six weeks hasn't soured him on you at all. I could not stomach his implosions. He's definitely not one of my favorites. I do realize once in a while he'd strike out the side and look unhittable. But his suckiness on several occasions down the stretch I felt was unacceptable for a team fighting for postseason berth and postseason success.

 

It's because his arm was still barely attached to his torso by the end of the season. I have no doubt it was deadarm.

[Kalapse]

I'm surprised the sight of Dotel the last six weeks hasn't soured him on you at all. I could not stomach his implosions. He's definitely not one of my favorites. I do realize once in a while he'd strike out the side and look unhittable. But his suckiness on several occasions down the stretch I felt was unacceptable for a team fighting for postseason berth and postseason success.

I broke this down a few weeks ago, you seemed to accept it at the time but I guess that wore of: his arm was about to fall off. He hadn't thrown more than 30 innings in 4 years, was coming off ligament replacement surgery and shockingly it seemed to bother him at about the 51 inning mark when he lost the ability to throw a slider. When I look at the data available (like the fact that Dotel was great through his first 50 innings this year) I see 2008 as a good year for Dotel, you can come to whatever conclusion you want. I'm done trying to convince you otherwise.

[GoodAsGould]

I was more than satisfied with the production Dotel gave us. If everyone stays healthy next season and we add Richard to the pen, it will definitely be a strength of ours.

[Dick Allen]

We are talking about the same players who will say adios in a heartbeat for a bigger paycheck? Sorry, there are no loyalties in baseball anymore. If there were, Maggs and Thomas would still be on the team. So I can just as easily see the same greedy teammates who are there say, "hey it's a business and they aren't getting paid to be here, so they left, I can understand that". In fact, how often do we hear, "it's a business"?

 

And look how much the fans truly appreciate the loyalty and support angle. Anderson was awesome in 2005. Man, he was on that top rail, leaping over and jumping and really supporting his teammates. Yet at any given time half the board wants him gone.

 

I agree they probably should have stayed. But I don't agree it sent any message to their teammates. I don't think it helped BA in 2006 or 2008 that he hung around. And I don't recall any fans sticking up for him when he sucked because he was so loyal and supported his teammates. Some guys rise to the occasion and others fold. I believe you have to be in the game to learn which you are. I believe you need experience in the game to truly make a difference.

There's where we disagree. I think if any of these guys are still with the White Sox next year, pretty much every player and maybe even more importantly, Ozzie and KW, won't forget they would rather go home than have to stay in a nice hotel, hang out with their teammates and watch a playoff game their team is playing on a huge television in the clubhouse. As far as your, "they aren't getting paid" argument, its the playoffs, every player is in the same boat. Their salaries have been paid. This argument isn't about the fans. As a huge fan, It wouldn't have bothered me if they told these 3 to go home after Charlotte's season ended, costing at least Broadway $65k which is what he was paid to sit around and not play for a month. It wouldn't have bothered me if the Sox told the 3 to go home after they won the division, but that isn't what happened. The most important opinions are of White Sox players and all reports say their departures were well-noted. Even Farmio and Stone, 2 guys who played MLB, travel with the Sox and would have a better perspective of this than you or me, were perplexed that going home would even be a consideration for these guys.

[Texsox]

There's where we disagree. I think if any of these guys are still with the White Sox next year, pretty much every player and maybe even more importantly, Ozzie and KW, won't forget they would rather go home than have to stay in a nice hotel, hang out with their teammates and watch a playoff game their team is playing on a huge television in the clubhouse. As far as your, "they aren't getting paid" argument, its the playoffs, every player is in the same boat. Their salaries have been paid. This argument isn't about the fans. As a huge fan, It wouldn't have bothered me if they told these 3 to go home after Charlotte's season ended, costing at least Broadway $65k which is what he was paid to sit around and not play for a month. It wouldn't have bothered me if the Sox told the 3 to go home after they won the division, but that isn't what happened. The most important opinions are of White Sox players and all reports say their departures were well-noted. Even Farmio and Stone, 2 guys who played MLB, travel with the Sox and would have a better perspective of this than you or me, were perplexed that going home would even be a consideration for these guys.

My not getting paid is more to the point that "it's a business". You can talk about bonding and being a team mate, but IMHO that lasts until the next contract negotiations.

 

Thomas came to the park during 2005, yet he still was not offered a new contract? Did KW not see him? He was loyal to his team mates for years, even accepting lower contracts to play for the Sox. He was arguably the greatest player to play for the Sox, AND flew in special to be with his teammates, and the following year was playing for Oakland. So we know how unimportant it is if you are a HoF caliber player to be around the team and bonding. Clearly these guys are not HoF material.

 

So now let's look how important it will be for a AAAA player. Setting aside a few things, and for the sake of the discussion. I'll agree with all you said, now, let's put this in a practical manner.

 

How much better will Broadway now have to pitch to make the team over someone who stayed?

 

IF during Spring Training Logan or Broadway are putting up better numbers compared to guys who were in the clubhouse, will people here argue that they should spend more time in AAA and leave the roster spots to the guys that stayed? I've never heard an argument around here for keeping someone with less stats than someone playing better because they are better ass patters and cheer harder for the teammates. If that were the case, we would have a whole lot more Anderson love.

 

Bottom line, by Spring Training, all this is forgotten. Guys are going to have to earn their roster spots by their play on the field, not by donning cheerleader outfits and patting asses in the clubhouse.

[YASNY]

My not getting paid is more to the point that "it's a business". You can talk about bonding and being a team mate, but IMHO that lasts until the next contract negotiations.

 

Thomas came to the park during 2005, yet he still was not offered a new contract? Did KW not see him? He was loyal to his team mates for years, even accepting lower contracts to play for the Sox. He was arguably the greatest player to play for the Sox, AND flew in special to be with his teammates, and the following year was playing for Oakland. So we know how unimportant it is if you are a HoF caliber player to be around the team and bonding. Clearly these guys are not HoF material.

 

So now let's look how important it will be for a AAAA player. Setting aside a few things, and for the sake of the discussion. I'll agree with all you said, now, let's put this in a practical manner.

 

How much better will Broadway now have to pitch to make the team over someone who stayed?

 

IF during Spring Training Logan or Broadway are putting up better numbers compared to guys who were in the clubhouse, will people here argue that they should spend more time in AAA and leave the roster spots to the guys that stayed? I've never heard an argument around here for keeping someone with less stats than someone playing better because they are better ass patters and cheer harder for the teammates. If that were the case, we would have a whole lot more Anderson love.

 

Bottom line, by Spring Training, all this is forgotten. Guys are going to have to earn their roster spots by their play on the field, not by donning cheerleader outfits and patting asses in the clubhouse.

 

I don't think it will all be forgotten. These things linger. Jon Rauch's antics weren't forgotten, nor were D'Angelo Jiminez or Royce Clayton. Orlando Cabrera's crap won't be forgotten either, I don't care how good he was. I can see AJ as one of the guys shaking his head. Ozzie won't forget it either, at least until these guys prove themselves over the lang haul, if given the chance. I think Brian Anderson is a prime example. His attitude was not looked upon favorably at the end of 2007. I believe 2008 was his year of 'paying his dues' and proving to Ozzie and the team that he had matured. I also believe that BA will get a legit shot to earn the starting CF job in ST of '09, because he took his lumps in '08 and never complained about lack of playing time or lack of opportunities. At least, nothing publically came out from Brian that indicated he was a problem in '08. These 3 guys have to prove something to their teammates and management. That is a hurdle none of them needed and could turn out to be their ticket right out of the organization.

 

[Dick Allen]

My not getting paid is more to the point that "it's a business". You can talk about bonding and being a team mate, but IMHO that lasts until the next contract negotiations.

 

Thomas came to the park during 2005, yet he still was not offered a new contract? Did KW not see him? He was loyal to his team mates for years, even accepting lower contracts to play for the Sox. He was arguably the greatest player to play for the Sox, AND flew in special to be with his teammates, and the following year was playing for Oakland. So we know how unimportant it is if you are a HoF caliber player to be around the team and bonding. Clearly these guys are not HoF material.

 

So now let's look how important it will be for a AAAA player. Setting aside a few things, and for the sake of the discussion. I'll agree with all you said, now, let's put this in a practical manner.

 

How much better will Broadway now have to pitch to make the team over someone who stayed?

 

IF during Spring Training Logan or Broadway are putting up better numbers compared to guys who were in the clubhouse, will people here argue that they should spend more time in AAA and leave the roster spots to the guys that stayed? I've never heard an argument around here for keeping someone with less stats than someone playing better because they are better ass patters and cheer harder for the teammates. If that were the case, we would have a whole lot more Anderson love.

 

Bottom line, by Spring Training, all this is forgotten. Guys are going to have to earn their roster spots by their play on the field, not by donning cheerleader outfits and patting asses in the clubhouse.

Comparing these 3 with the Frank Thomas situation is absurd. Frank wasn't coming back no matter what. KW hates him, and he was hurt. These are guys that still need to establish their place. Going home doesn't help that. They are in the doghouse, and once you get in a White Sox doghouse, its difficult to get out. The White Sox are a baseball TEAM. Those 3 may not have been on the roster, but the organization which includes the other players still considered them part of the TEAM. Too bad the players didn't feel the same way. I have a feeling they will regret it.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Dick Allen

[Texsox]

Basically I agree with you Yas. But once again I ask, How much better will Broadway now have to pitch? If he is 2-1 in Spring training with a 4.3 and someone else is 1-2 with a 5.2, does Broadway have no shot?

 

You don't think Anderson's situation was more his performance on the field? I find it hard to believe that hitting .235 and being "supportive to his teammates" is better for his career than batting .285 and not talking to them.

[Texsox]

Comparing these 3 with the Frank Thomas situation is absurd. Frank wasn't coming back no matter what. KW hates him, and he was hurt. These are guys that still need to establish their place. Going home doesn't help that. They are in the doghouse, and once you get in a White Sox doghouse, its difficult to get out. The White Sox are a baseball TEAM. Those 3 may not have been on the roster, but the organization which includes the other players still considered them part of the TEAM. Too bad the players didn't feel the same way. I have a feeling they will regret it.

 

Again, How much better will Broadway have to pitch than someone else to make the team?

[YASNY]

Basically I agree with you Yas. But once again I ask, How much better will Broadway now have to pitch? If he is 2-1 in Spring training with a 4.3 and someone else is 1-2 with a 5.2, does Broadway have no shot?

 

You don't think Anderson's situation was more his performance on the field? I find it hard to believe that hitting .235 and being "supportive to his teammates" is better for his career than batting .285 and not talking to them.

 

No, I don't think it was BA's performance at all. There were countless times that he should have been in CF late in the game to replace Swish/Jr. that he wasn't. If he would have been inserted more often defensively, he would have gotten a few more PA's on a regular basis and very possibly would not have been quite so rusty facing live pitching. As for Broadway, he might make the team, but he's going to have a short leash when it comes to attitude. As I said, he might get the chance to prove himself but he's made it that much more difficult for himself.

[Dick Allen]

Again, How much better will Broadway have to pitch than someone else to make the team?

If it comes down to him or Wassermann, a guy who stayed, I would say a lot better. I think KW probably has an idea to send Broadway away this offseason. Clubhouse chemistry is often mentioned today as well. Once Cabrera finds a new team, you will hear how disruptive he was to that particular aspect. Another thing to keep in mind as these guys left, is that teams can change their roster with eligible players every series. Tampa changed theirs. What if there happened to be an injury or 2 and the White Sox advanced to the ALCS? Guys that could have been throwing with their major league coaches and working out before games would have to come back from home if they were added to the roster. It was an idiotic move to make, especially considering the thin ice the 3 guys careers are basically on. MacDougal can't throw a strike. Logan has trouble with strikes and homers, and Broadway can't get AAA hitters out. If you think a guy like AJP will ever let these guys forget how they disrespected him and the rest of the White Sox by going home, I think you're sadly mistaken.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Dick Allen

[Texsox]

No, I don't think it was BA's performance at all. There were countless times that he should have been in CF late in the game to replace Swish/Jr. that he wasn't. If he would have been inserted more often defensively, he would have gotten a few more PA's on a regular basis and very possibly would not have been quite so rusty facing live pitching. As for Broadway, he might make the team, but he's going to have a short leash when it comes to attitude. As I said, he might get the chance to prove himself but he's made it that much more difficult for himself.

 

.225 in 365 ABs in 2006

.232 in 181 ABs in 2008

 

I think that is limiting his playing time more than attitude. And look who he replaced. I thought Rowand had a great attitude and was well liked by his teammates. Yet, KW felt he could break that up.

 

As far as Broadway, I agree with your assessment. I just don't think it will take much to overcome any of this. Perhaps less than a day in the locker room. There was no mention of a bad attitude prior to this, I can't believe one act, especially after being flown to Florida to get cut, will linger. Plus, I just have seen some pretty crappy humans playing all sports because they have ability. (T.O., Pacman, Bonds)

 

At the end of your career you may be able to squeeze out another season or two based on attitude and intangibles (Griffey, Maddux), but at the start of a career, you have to be able to play.

 

And players are too transient. Reading the other threads, despite this wonderful supportive, bonding experience that happened during the playoffs, we want a fourth of the players gone by next year. Why, if this is so important, don't we want them together next year?

[Texsox]

If it comes down to him or Wassermann, a guy who stayed, I would say a lot better. I think KW probably has an idea to send Broadway away this offseason. Clubhouse chemistry is often mentioned today as well. Once Cabrera finds a new team, you will hear how disruptive he was to that particular aspect. Another thing to keep in mind as these guys left, is that teams can change their roster with eligible players every series. Tampa changed theirs. What if there happened to be an injury or 2 and the White Sox advanced to the ALCS? Guys that could have been throwing with their major league coaches and working out before games would have to come back from home if they were added to the roster. It was an idiotic move to make, especially considering the thin ice the 3 guys careers are basically on. MacDougal can't throw a strike. Logan has trouble with strikes and homers, and Broadway can't get AAA hitters out. If you think a guy like AJP will ever let these guys forget how they disrespected him and the rest of the White Sox by going home, I think you're sadly mistaken.

 

The team already told these guys who the first alternate was. Which was Wasserman and specifically asked Wasserman to stay. They gave the other guys a choice to stay or leave.

 

Throwing, working out? No mention of that at all. And why would the coaches, during the playoffs, move their attention away from the guys on the roster to spend time with AAAA guys who would not be playing? Seems distracting to me. Tryouts in the middle of the playoffs? No Thanks.

 

Cabrera will find a team. I guess that shows how important attitude is compared to ability.

 

Interesting you would take these guys with the problems you outlined, if they stayed. I believe they have to prove it on the field, not in the locker room. But you fill your roster with guys who

MacDougal can't throw a strike. Logan has trouble with strikes and homers, and Broadway can't get AAA hitters out.

but who can pat asses and cheer their fool little heads off. I'll take the guys who can play.

[YASNY]

.225 in 365 ABs in 2006

.232 in 181 ABs in 2008

 

I think that is limiting his playing time more than attitude. And look who he replaced. I thought Rowand had a great attitude and was well liked by his teammates. Yet, KW felt he could break that up.

 

As far as Broadway, I agree with your assessment. I just don't think it will take much to overcome any of this. Perhaps less than a day in the locker room. There was no mention of a bad attitude prior to this, I can't believe one act, especially after being flown to Florida to get cut, will linger. Plus, I just have seen some pretty crappy humans playing all sports because they have ability. (T.O., Pacman, Bonds)

 

At the end of your career you may be able to squeeze out another season or two based on attitude and intangibles (Griffey, Maddux), but at the start of a career, you have to be able to play.

 

And players are too transient. Reading the other threads, despite this wonderful supportive, bonding experience that happened during the playoffs, we want a fourth of the players gone by next year. Why, if this is so important, don't we want them together next year?

 

 

I'm looking at this from two perspectives. First, what would I have done if I was in Lance Broadway's situation. It certainly wouldn't be the choice he made. Second, if I was one of the veterans, I would have been doing some head shaking as well. Also, looking at things from my current job situation, you have to show that you are a team player to a certain extent. I pull my weight, look down on those that don't and appreciate the others that do.

[Dick Allen]

The team already told these guys who the first alternate was. Which was Wasserman and specifically asked Wasserman to stay. They gave the other guys a choice to stay or leave.

 

Throwing, working out? No mention of that at all. And why would the coaches, during the playoffs, move their attention away from the guys on the roster to spend time with AAAA guys who would not be playing? Seems distracting to me. Tryouts in the middle of the playoffs? No Thanks.

 

Cabrera will find a team. I guess that shows how important attitude is compared to ability.

 

Interesting you would take these guys with the problems you outlined, if they stayed. I believe they have to prove it on the field, not in the locker room. But you fill your roster with guys who but who can pat asses and cheer their fool little heads off. I'll take the guys who can play.

That's right. There are a lot of guys who have hung around a long time, not because of playing ability but because they are good guys who work hard, and are a good influence to the rest of the roster. As I've stated, I don't want any 3 of these guys to ever pitch for the White Sox again, and I would have said this before they blew off their teammates and instead of staying in Tampa, which would be the easier thing to do physically, they went home. As you said, there are plenty of bad attitudes in sports, but they guys you mentioned have something these 3 don't. A lot of abilility and a history of performance. If Manny Ramirez had Alex Cora's abillity and still was the Manny being Manny guy, he wouldn't be in the major leagues. You have to earn your stripes. The 3 who went home haven't. As far as getting their work in during the playoffs, that's really no problem. There's plenty of time. These guys get to the park sometimes 5 or 6 hours before the game starts.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Dick Allen

[Texsox]

I'm looking at this from two perspectives. First, what would I have done if I was in Lance Broadway's situation. It certainly wouldn't be the choice he made. Second, if I was one of the veterans, I would have been doing some head shaking as well. Also, looking at things from my current job situation, you have to show that you are a team player to a certain extent. I pull my weight, look down on those that don't and appreciate the others that do.

 

Agree, I would have stayed. No doubt about it. I can't think of a good reason to leave. Hell the party would have been fun. Getting ready for next season could wait a couple weeks.

 

If I were a veteran, I'd would not give these guys a second thought. There is a core, I doubt the vets really cared. Guys hang out based on a number of factors. It's not like all 30 would be at a hotel bar screaming to "play some f***ing Journey". Some of the guys have been together three or four years. I doubt they lack for friends on the team or really need the support of Logan. They had a job to do and were doing it. Do you really believe, for example, that AJ is thinking "damn I wish Broadway stayed around, I could have used his support"? AJ had 11 other pitchers he needed to pay attention to.

 

One instance is not going to make or break their reputation as a teammate. The guys who left already have an impression with their teammates from their time actually as teammates. If they were good guys before that, I doubt it will change much. If they were already viewed as asses, this will just confirm. Talent always wins out. Hey it's "just Manny being Manny".

 

And think about relationships in sports. How much did the Bull players and Bull fans dislike Rodman? Remember he shoved Pippen into the basket supports. Boom! They are playing together and all is forgotten.

[Texsox]

That's right. There are a lot of guys who have hung around a long time, not because of playing ability but because they are good guys who work hard, and are a good influence to the rest of the roster. As I've stated, I don't want any 3 of these guys to ever pitch for the White Sox again, and I would have said this before they blew off their teammates and instead of staying in Tampa, which would be the easier thing to do physically, they went home. As you said, there are plenty of bad attitudes in sports, but they guys you mentioned have something these 3 don't. A lot of abilility and a history of performance. If Manny Ramirez had Alex Cora's abillity and still was the Manny being Manny guy, he wouldn't be in the major leagues. You have to earn your stripes. The 3 who went home haven't. As far as getting their work in during the playoffs, that's really no problem. There's plenty of time. These guys get to the park sometimes 5 or 6 hours before the game starts.

 

So I ask you again, how important is this attitude stuff compared to ability? You did say that Broadway has to show a lot more ability to get a roster spot over someone like Wasserman. In other words you would take Wasserman's attitude over better performance from Broadway. This post seems to be more along the points that I've been saying.

 

And even though there was never a mention that any of these guys had a bad attitude while playing, did this one instance seal their fate? That other players will not look at the previous year or three, instead judge based on just the playoffs? Because what you would be saying is a year or two as a teammate is not as important as one playoff series when you are not on the team. Perhaps there is some merit to that statement.

[Texsox]

In rereading through the thread I think I've been really unclear.

 

• They should have stayed, no doubt
• Attitude at this age is important
• Ability is always more important, even more at this age.
• Rookie 90% Ability and 10% Intangibles
• HoF Veteran 50%-50%
• Of the 10% Intangibles, ass patting and cheer leading is 2%. Hustle, working out, is 8%.
• A year or two as a teammate playing together is way more important than one decision when you are not on the team.
• Cheering is overrated. Playing together and winning together bonds the team. You don't get that watching on a couch.
• Rookies need the support of veterans way more than veterans need the support of rookies.
• The playoffs are about winning, not about tryouts, and bonding. They should have bonded long before this.
• Players talk about the distractions of the playoffs. 25 men in the club house is normal, 35 is not.
• It's a long off season. How they prepare for Spring Training will be a better indicator. Logan works his ass off and Wasserman comes in fat, edge Logan.