One Man's Timidity Can Set the Tone

[Soxbadger]

Where is anyone giving Javy a free pass for today?

 

Every single post Ive seen has been about how Javy is the worst player etc.

 

Even when some one says "Hey other things went bad today" people just keep harping on Javy.

 

Im just sick of reading it for the last 3 years, maybe some people find it fun and amusing, but it just is annoying as hell imo. The Sox have a great chance this series, todays game they easily could have won. I blame Javy, I blame Ozzie, I blame the team for not winning that game. Javy didnt pitch amazing, but at the same time the Sox had an opportunity with the leading run at the plate. Its not like Javy flat out lost the game for them and gave them no chance at winning.

 

This game was there for the taking, even with Javy's performance. At the end of the day the blame belongs on a lot of people, my belief is that Ozzie cost the Sox the most this game.

 

But you dont see me saying that I hope Ozzie dies or that he never manages another game etc, Ill critique what he did, and then hope he does better the next time. Thats the part I dont get, why do people want Javy to fail? Shouldnt they be hoping that each time hell some how figure it out?

Edited October 2, 2008 by Soxbadger

[iWiN4PreP]

Id rather our offense put hits together to score runs in big innings, then anything with the pitching staff.

[Flash Tizzle]

Answer this for me, Soxbadger -- if we were to make it to the ALCS and the choice was between Vazquez on full rest, Richard on full rest, or one of our other starters on three days rest who do you go with? In order, for me, it'd be Buehrle/Danks/Floyd on three days rest, Richard, then Vazquez. And I'm not second guessing Guillen for today, either. I'm just tired of Vazquez. There shouldn't be a next time for him unless we have exhausted all other options.

 

Over last four starts he has proven he can't figure it out. Whether there's a legitimate reason aside form choking I don't know. It's not like he hasn't pitched over 200 innings before. His velocity was good today, as well, so you can't blame injuries.

Edited October 2, 2008 by Flash Tizzle

[Wanne]

I'm just amazed he won 12 friggin games this year...

[Soxbadger]

Okay if we make the ALCS it depends on how we do it.

 

For the sake of argument lets say that we go to game 5 where Buerhle has to pitch.

 

In that scenario if its Danks on 4 days rest and then Gavin on full rest, I would start Danks 1, Gavin 2, Buerhle 3, Javy 4.

 

I dont really like the idea of taxing our starters to much especially if they are going to for sure get the ball (ie in Alcs all 4 will start no matter what so no reason to start them tired and screw the whole series.)

 

The argument for Richard and Javy I break down as follows:

 

Javy is a veteran, he may not be the best pitcher but usually even in his worst start he only gives up 6-7 runs. If he gets hit, Ozzie can leave him in there to die and save our pen.

 

Richard is a rookie and completely unproven. He looked good today, but Im not 100% sure that he wont have control problems or feel the pressure starting an important game. Id like to say just give the kid a shot, but I think that the more prudent position is to start Javy and then have Richard come in later. If you dont start Javy, you are just asking for a world of trouble if you bring him in from the pen because you just have no clue how he will react to that.

 

 

[Ron]

it was a bulls*** strike out. the called strike (strike 2) was a ball.

 

Agreed.

 

while cabrera looked pretty foolish, he would have been a savior and a badass if he hits a double there, probably sparking the team enough to even get paul konerko pumped up.

 

Yea, I thought the same thing as it was happening. I'm like this dude could go from douche to cult hero in one AB. He gets a hit after that, and it could've been a big momentum shift. Woulda made him look like AJ-like.

 

Thats the part I dont get, why do people want Javy to fail? Shouldnt they be hoping that each time hell some how figure it out?

 

Man, please. Javier Vazquez has no bigger cheerleader than I everytime he comes to the mound. I don't want the man to fail, not so long as he wears a White Sox uniform, that's for sure. I know he has talent, we all know that. He can do it; he just doesn't. Which is the exact reason why I'm frustrated in him. How many times can the organization and the fans go through that before you get tired of it?

Edited October 3, 2008 by Ron

[fathom]

Okay if we make the ALCS it depends on how we do it.

 

For the sake of argument lets say that we go to game 5 where Buerhle has to pitch.

 

In that scenario if its Danks on 4 days rest and then Gavin on full rest, I would start Danks 1, Gavin 2, Buerhle 3, Javy 4.

 

I dont really like the idea of taxing our starters to much especially if they are going to for sure get the ball (ie in Alcs all 4 will start no matter what so no reason to start them tired and screw the whole series.)

 

The argument for Richard and Javy I break down as follows:

 

Javy is a veteran, he may not be the best pitcher but usually even in his worst start he only gives up 6-7 runs. If he gets hit, Ozzie can leave him in there to die and save our pen.

 

Richard is a rookie and completely unproven. He looked good today, but Im not 100% sure that he wont have control problems or feel the pressure starting an important game. Id like to say just give the kid a shot, but I think that the more prudent position is to start Javy and then have Richard come in later. If you dont start Javy, you are just asking for a world of trouble if you bring him in from the pen because you just have no clue how he will react to that.

 

This is the freaking playoffs. We're not talking about sucking up innings to save the bullpen. I guarantee that no one feels worse about having to pencil Javy into the rotation than Ozzie. Of all people, he knows that Javy is a coward.

[Soxbadger]

The problem is the Sox have no other starting options that would likely get them a better result.

 

Javy's era is lower than Richard's era.

 

Youd just be playing a gut feeling basically.

[Leonard Zelig]

Solution: Start Javy or Richard, let him go 4 innings only, bring in the other for 4 innings.

[caulfield12]

They said something telling during the pre-game show.

 

That when Ozzie was being questioned by the reporter (Jesse) about Vazquez starting, he hemed and hawed and said everything to support him, but you could tell by his evasive answer that Guillen didn't have confidence or faith in him anymore but felt like he had no choice.

 

Said the only other time this year he (Guillen) had the same reaction (evasive, rambling, not entirely honest or forthright like usual) was on the constant questioning of Griffey playing CF...that deep down it was implied or inferred he knew that was also a questionable decision for him to make, and that he felt a bit uncomfortable with Griffey playing so much center, but his recent improved play and obviously the play the other day against Cuddyer validated his playing. In fact, Anderson, as a defensive sub, was inserted into LF, not CF.

[TheBigHurt]

I can't see putting the ball in Javier's hand in game 5 should we tie the series 2-2. No way.

[Soxbadger]

Game 5 would be Mark on regular rest so thats not really a problem at all.

[GoodAsGould]

The problem is the Sox have no other starting options that would likely get them a better result.

 

Javy's era is lower than Richard's era.

 

Youd just be playing a gut feeling basically.

 

Thats only if your going by season, Javy has been completely destroyed his last 4 starts I think. You cant keep marching him out there, either we go with the 3 man rotation or we put in Richard.

[Milkman delivers]

Why would the players be mad at Javy?

 

From what I remember Javy has been given some of the most brutal defensive plays over the last 3 years by his team.

 

Today there was a dropped ball on potential double play, a pop up to left field that no one decided to even try for, and 2-3 weak ground balls to the left side of the infield that rolled right through with out the Sox even getting a glove on them.

 

You can all have your scape goat if it makes you feel better at night, but the bases were loaded with 1 out and the Sox couldnt even score 1 run.

 

Since when is giving up 6 runs impossible to come back from?

 

This team is not going to get far if the pitchers have to keep the other team to 4 runs or less, the Sox are not built that way.

 

From what I remember, you are a lawyer. You definitely seem like a defense attorney. I hope you're better at defending your clients than you are at defending Vazquez. Nobody's buying it.

[WinningUgly85]

Vazquez hasn't been performing, well he is good at getting the strike out but if he can't go at least 6 or more innings without getting lit up then I think we should part ways after this season. Who should we consider picking up this off season if we do dump him.

Edited October 3, 2008 by WinningUgly85

[whitesoxfan101]

Javy is a mediocre innings eater until it matters, at which point he becomes a pathetic choke artist. I REALLY hope we don't see him starting again this postseason, and I also hope he's traded this offseason. He's a total waste of talent as he does nothing despite having great stuff, and it's annoying as hell to watch him pitch. Not much more needs to be said.

[Soxbadger]

Its true I am a lawyer, but Im not a criminal lawyer so some times I sue some times I defend, really just depends on who my client is

 

As for defending Javy, Im not.

 

Im just saying that some people are being ridiculous calling for hurt on him, that people are starting to make Javy a scape goat.

 

They are not mutually exclusive, Javy can be at fault and fans can be over reacting.

 

Im just tired of reading about Javy, just like I was tired about reading about Garland, just like I was tired about reading how Floyd sucked.

 

I just dont see the point on ragging on a player constantly, how is that constructive? How is that in any way going to do anything?

 

Maybe I just remember the days when the Sox didnt even win 1 game from their 5th starter and now we have people who are to good for Javy. Does anyone remember the seasons before 2005 and the parade of garbage that used to pitch for the Sox.

 

I guess its not so much defending Javy as it is that Im sick of reading half the posts on these boards.

 

Not to mention, Javy may be with the Sox next year. If he is, Im going to give him a chance just like any other player.

[BlackBetsy]

Let me distill what my thoughts are about Javy Vazquez and see if people agree.

 

Scouts rave about Javy Vazquez's stuff. He's apparently got three plus pitches. He produces excellent sabremetrical "peripheral" stats - low BB/9, high K/9. He can be dominant at times and make it look easy. No one on the list questions his talent.

 

But it is unmistakeable that Vazquez has performed poorly when the Sox need him. I've scatterplotted Vazquez's ERA vs. his team's winning percentages and there is a clear pattern - his ERA rises as his team's lot improves. His last four starts speak for themselves.

 

It's the way he loses. He gets flustered when a call goes against him. He seems to never be able to pitch around an error. He has blow up innings that tend to end games for the Sox. But more than that, he loses because he shows little or no aggressiveness. He tosses his plus fastball right down the middle and it gets hammered. He gives up on his breaking pitches. And hitters are comfortable in the box against him - he's apparently totally unwilling to hit a batter to send a message. Or even pitch inside to send a message.

 

And then, when he loses, he doesn't seem to care. Just another day at the office - he punches the clock by taking the ball and punches out by giving it back. No passion, no fire.

 

Then he pours salt in our wounds by saying he's going to the beach and doesn't care what we think about him. Not only does he choke, but he doesn't care that he does.

 

I think as Sox fans, we are indisposed to guys like Vazquez. We'd prefer a guy who goes out and fights with bad stuff by intimidating hitters and bears down in tough situations. El Duque had a bad season ERA wise for the Sox but we loved him because he pitched out of tough situations and knocked down hitters. We like fighters who care whether the team wins or loses. That's why we love AJ, why we love Uribe (who dove into the stands). It's also why the Yankees love Jeter.

 

And, at the end of the day, it's the reason why we don't like Vazquez.

[Milkman delivers]

Its true I am a lawyer, but Im not a criminal lawyer so some times I sue some times I defend, really just depends on who my client is

 

As for defending Javy, Im not.

 

Im just saying that some people are being ridiculous calling for hurt on him, that people are starting to make Javy a scape goat.

 

They are not mutually exclusive, Javy can be at fault and fans can be over reacting.

 

Im just tired of reading about Javy, just like I was tired about reading about Garland, just like I was tired about reading how Floyd sucked.

 

I just dont see the point on ragging on a player constantly, how is that constructive? How is that in any way going to do anything?

 

Maybe I just remember the days when the Sox didnt even win 1 game from their 5th starter and now we have people who are to good for Javy. Does anyone remember the seasons before 2005 and the parade of garbage that used to pitch for the Sox.

 

I guess its not so much defending Javy as it is that Im sick of reading half the posts on these boards.

 

Not to mention, Javy may be with the Sox next year. If he is, Im going to give him a chance just like any other player.

 

That's the thing. Blindly supporting a player also isn't constructive, nor does it help anything. We, as fans, can't do anything to change how the guy pitches. But, we can make known how we feel about the guy, and sometimes we need an outlet to vent our frustrations with players like Vazquez. Many of us see this site as a place to do this.

[greg775]

I'd keep him and turn him into a middle reliever, salary be damned. I think he'd be like Dotel, some days good, some awful.

 

As far as the thread, yes he was the biggest reason we lost. You take the 3-1 lead and immediately are behind? I wish I could have heard what Stone said about that. That was a killer.

 

That said, great relief job and we still could have made it interesting with some clutch home runs (we don't get clutch hits, only hrs of course).

 

Nice job by Wise; we had a chance to stun them ala the Dodgers vs. Nubs in Game One had we held them at bay a couple innings. But Javy giving up the lead immediately!! My god that cooked us. Poor Javy, what a stiff.

 

 

-- I was talking to somebody who was not a big baseball fan who wanted to know why a guy with 16 losses was pitching in a playoff game (and I don't blame Ozzie; I'd go with the headcase Vazzy today over a rookie)? I just said I don't know.

[greg775]

Excellent column in my opinion by Couch. Have to nod my head in agreement here.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/11994...g100308.article

[caulfield12]

I'd keep him and turn him into a middle reliever, salary be damned. I think he'd be like Dotel, some days good, some awful.

 

As far as the thread, yes he was the biggest reason we lost. You take the 3-1 lead and immediately are behind? I wish I could have heard what Stone said about that. That was a killer.

 

That said, great relief job and we still could have made it interesting with some clutch home runs (we don't get clutch hits, only hrs of course).

 

Nice job by Wise; we had a chance to stun them ala the Dodgers vs. Nubs in Game One had we held them at bay a couple innings. But Javy giving up the lead immediately!! My god that cooked us. Poor Javy, what a stiff.

 

 

-- I was talking to somebody who was not a big baseball fan who wanted to know why a guy with 16 losses was pitching in a playoff game (and I don't blame Ozzie; I'd go with the headcase Vazzy today over a rookie)? I just said I don't know.

 

 

We can't afford a $11.5 million dollar middle reliever and long man...we couldn't afford El Duque at roughly half that salary for 2006, which is basically why we let him go...that and durability/age concerns. And his "sulking" presence in the pen (if he's not a starter) would not be constructive at all. Let him go and start somewhere else, please KW.

 

 

[DABearSoX]

That's the thing. Blindly supporting a player also isn't constructive, nor does it help anything. We, as fans, can't do anything to change how the guy pitches. But, we can make known how we feel about the guy, and sometimes we need an outlet to vent our frustrations with players like Vazquez. Many of us see this site as a place to do this.

 

nice work

[Jordan4life_2007]

Nice article that greg posted. Summed up Javy and OC perfectly.

[Flash Tizzle]

Excellent column in my opinion by Couch. Have to nod my head in agreement here.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/11994...g100308.article

That's a strong comment to suggest that Vazquez can't pitch for the White Sox again. Not that I disagree with him, but aside from Mariotti (and maybe Cowley) I rarely sense frustration within an article like I did here with Couch. It reads like someone just disgusted with what he has seen with Cabrera and Vazquez.