Does anyone think Guillen did a poor job managing?

[caulfield12]

 

I saw some of the threads yesterday, and I was just curious where this idea comes from...

 

Because he started Vazquez over Richard? Well, I wonder how many of us, if we were managing the Sox, would have actually made the same decision? It's easy to say in hindsight, and Richard did acquit himself very well yesterday, but you can't compare pitching under pressure with a lead or tie game and a three run deficit. I also felt the Rays were starting to get his number the second time around, and he would undoubtedly have given up 3-4 runs as well in the middle innings. Not to mention the fact that Pena, one of the Rays' biggest weapons and a better match-up for the lefty Richard, was already out of the line-up due to the eye scratch.

 

Many thought Ozzie should have started Anderson or Swisher over Wise. Starting Wise might have been the smartest thing Ozzie did yesterday. Anderson wet the bed and looked like a deer in the headlights against Howell, I don't think he even swung the bat once...I know he was attempting to draw a walk and get on base, but not even one swing?

 

The ball that Iwamura hit over Griffey's head, I am sure some will argue would have been caught by Anderson, but I'm doubtful about that one. And there's certainly no defense for the faster turf fields and homerun balls.

 

There were some positives, Clayton Richard was the biggest one (although I'm not sure if he should be a starter or the Nick Masset out of next year's pen to the begin the season). With the fact that Logan/Ramirez don't look serviceable, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the second lefty. A lot depends on what KW does with Vazquez, if they give Broadway/Carrasco/Poreda a serious look in the spring and any FA signings or trades. I'm fine with Richard starting or in the pen, I think he's earned a place on next year's team, fwiw.

 

Wise got some confidence back, and Konerko continues to impress over the final six weeks. Also, if they have to go to Wheeler, we elevated his pitch count and worked him every at-bat in the 9th, so maybe that will have adverse consequences if they go to him for two consecutive games. At least we put up some offense, the 2000 playoffs were undoubtedly more frustrating than this. I felt more resigned to this loss than anything, but I will still thinking Roberto Clemente Ramirez might get on and we could tie it up in the 9th.

 

I guess the big thing the game will be remembered for are the strikeouts of Uribe and Cabrera's confrontation/K against Balfour. Look at it this way, if the Twins held onto Grant and he pitched this way for them, we would have finished 5-7 games behind Minnesota in the standings, EASILY. Then we would only be on the outside looking in, dreaming of the playoffs. And we haven't self-destructed/imploded/choked like the Cubs have, on their home field, for two consecutive games. We just saw something with about a 90% probability before the game (Vazquez sucking) come home to roost...but we were still in the game, the offense just couldn't get it done and we had to put up at least 2 runs in the 7th but didn't get it done. That happens. We come back tomorrow and try again. We don't have anything to hang our heads about, and I actually like the amped up passion/rivalry we might have with the Rays as a result of this series. Better than remembering TB for spanking Billy Koch dead-straight fastballs into the bleachers, I suppose.

 

 

 

 

[G&T]

No. Vazquez was the right move. I'm pissed at OC this morning more than Vazquez. He was brought in for the purpose of getting THAT hit with the bases loaded and 2 out in the playoffs. Instead...nothing.

Edited October 3, 2008 by G&T

[caulfield12]

No. Vazquez was the right move. I'm pissed at OC this morning more than Vazquez. He was brought in for the purpose of getting THAT hit with the bases loaded and 2 out in the playoffs. Instead...nothing.

 

 

Not to mention he did about the only thing you could do (besides striking out) not to score a run with runners on 2nd and 3rd...fortunately, in that situation, Wise really bailed him out.

 

Cabrera's trying to be a leader in an effort to take the team on his shoulders, I just don't think he has the respect of enough of the team to do that. The Buehrles, Dyes, Konerkos, Thomes, Griffeys, AJ's, Credes won't allow it...I think perhaps there is some resentment even about his explicitly and publicly attempting to do that, because they care (the veteran Sox players) more about the team winning than individual goals. Or at least they usually come off that way 95% of the time.

 

When you leave the stadium right away after every game and almost never grant interview requests, you're allowing the media and fans to create the wrong impression, simply by not countering with one of your own. The comments (alleged) to Morneau at first base in the final series against the Twins...both Javier and Cabrera are not exactly the most popular Sox players at this point, among fans or in the clubhouse. I'm sure Anderson, Hall and Swisher will have a few things to say (maybe not on the record) after he is gone to a team that makes his heart beat faster.

 

I also sense the tension between Guillen and Cabrera, it has been there all season long. Not so coincidentally, they're both from neighboring S. American countries and played the same position.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

The problem is that Vazquez increasingly sh*tty performances down the stretch basically forced Guillen into starting him in Game 1 because of how Guillen had to use Danks, Buehrle and Floyd to clinch. If the Sox were able to capitalize just one of those games that Javy started, Ozzie may have been able to set his rotation and we probably would have seen Danks start game 1.

 

And I understand it isnt all on Javy as it is a team game, but Javy really has a hard time holding onto any lead given to him and has collapses that really suck the life out of a team.

[caulfield12]

I have a sense that if we held the lead to two runs (I think Clayton gave up a single up the middle to Crawford) that we would have been in a much better position to come back and win. (Of course, overall, Clayton pitched a wonderful game). The TB pitching staff is too good...with the exception of Wheeler and Howell, I'm convinced they are vulnerable. I remember when the Royals drafted him, and I saw him pitch in KC, most of his pitches were 82-85 and I thought of the White Sox drafting Broadway and McCulloch in the late first round as well.

 

But, lo and behold, there's a former Royals relief pitcher (not named Carrasco, Ramirez, MacDougal, Sisco) who's gone out there and had a very good season. Howell, with his stuff (what was Harold Reynolds talking about???), is never going to get it done as a starter, but he's very good (I think of him and Jamie Walker in a similar vein) in his role.

 

 

[Texsox]

Oz was fine yesterday, sadly he was not put in a position to really f*** things up.

[RockRaines]

Ozzie is painted into a corner on several things. his 5th starter goes does for his career, his 4th starter craps himself down the stretch. He puts out there what he has in the clubhouse, and somehow still won the division with scotch tape and geriatrics. Yesterday? The hit and run was bad, other than that, nothing too negative.

[caulfield12]

Kind of an aside, but this is a very interesting article, FWIW.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ...tors/index.html

 

BP tried to measure the factors that most account for post-season success, and rated defense, closer and strikeout pitching/pitchers as the three most important individual categories/predictors. Actually, our rating was just ahead of TB and sixth in the majors.

 

Of course, our weakest point is defense and speed. (Although Javier is probably our biggest "asset" in these rankings as a strikeout pitcher, yet anyone who's watched him for 3 seasons knows those numbers always come with caveats).

 

If we put a line-up out there with Crede (healthy), Uribe at SS, Ramirez at 2B, Swisher at 1B, Anderson in CF...with Dye and Quentin on the corners, we'd be in much better shape. But then we'd lose Konerko's offensive numbers, which wouldn't be offset by the defensive gain by having Swisher there. We just don't have any easy answers at the corner outfield spots and with AJ's throwing (although 50% relates to Floyd/Contreras/Jenks, Vazquez doing a horrible job of holding runners on or paying attention to them once they reach).

Edited October 3, 2008 by caulfield12

[BigSqwert]

I don't agree that Swisher is better at 1B.

[Soxbadger]

The only thing that you could get on Ozzie for is if he calls pitch selection and/or not pinch hitting Swisher for Uribe.

 

It really wasnt a game where managers decided it, more was decided by the players on the field, and in this case the Sox being unable to score runs with 2 outs versus the Rays being able to.

[caulfield12]

The only thing that you could get on Ozzie for is if he calls pitch selection and/or not pinch hitting Swisher for Uribe.

 

It really wasnt a game where managers decided it, more was decided by the players on the field, and in this case the Sox being unable to score runs with 2 outs versus the Rays being able to.

 

 

Who were you planning to play 3B if you pinch-hit in the 7th? You'd have a subpar defender, on turf, for at least two and maybe more innings.

 

Uribe is a very good fastball hitter, and Swisher, with the lack of playing time, I don't know how he's going to get Balfour. Yes, he got Zumaya, but that was when he was getting regular AB's.

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Im not saying what Ozzie did was wrong, Im saying those are the only things you can even question him on and they arent really clear cut (well pinch hitting for Uribe wasnt clear cut, I think pitch selection was once again horrendous but that has been a problem for the Sox all year.)

 

In the game thread I said that you couldnt pinch hit for Uribe cause of Fields defense, but the more I think about it the more I feel that the Sox should have first worried about tying the game, and then secondly worry about then keeping that tie or lead.

 

But as I said, it really wasnt a game decided by the manager, I just was pointing out the only situations that I saw that potentially could be blamed on Ozzie.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Soxbadger

[jenksycat]

ozzie is a bad manager only when he loses. Thats a simple fact on these boards and in the media.

[greg775]

I laughed when somebody posted before Game Two that this was the best lineup they'd seen in a while.

That's only because Swisher and Anderson hadn't started in a while. It's like begging for the second team quarterback, the unknown. Yesterday's lineup was just as bad as any we've had lately in road games.

 

Our lousiness on the road against good teams is depressing.