Fixing the speed problem while remaining revenue neutral

[Princess Dye]

Thing is we can make all these guesses, but what KW will inevitably end up doing is make the move no one talked about

 

CQ,Alexei, Iguchi, Pods trade etc

[False Alarm]

By trading Dye to the Angels, are you assuming they are going to DH him or Guerrero?

 

Neither one of those guys wants to sit on the bench the majority or even half the season? Or I guess you're thinking they would move Dye to LF?

 

Generally, not the wisest move to include top young pitching prospects in trades for position players. Keep in mind, the Angels probably won't re-sign Garland, so Adenhart will be given every chance to be the fifth starter IMO.

 

Adenhart has been perenially ranked in the Top 30-40 players in baseball...and, once again, he's a young/affordable pitcher (which is the single most valuable commodity in the game).

 

Many fans here would not even be convinced we should accept a Figgins for Poreda deal...and Poreda isn't even a consensus member of the Top 50 MLB prospects list, probably closer to 75-125.

 

But you want them to give up Adenhart too? I just doubt, with their history of holding on to most of their prospects, that they would contemplate such a move. It also makes them too old...they have Guerrero already getting into his 30's as well, along with Hunter. They would become more like the White Sox, and I don't think that's Scioscia's goal. Of course, that style which has led to the highest winning percentage in baseball has failed to even get them into the World Series once during that time.

i guess i could rebut each point here, but you're kinda using a bazooka on an anthill by fixating on my off-the-cuff angels trade. (though, yes, of course i was thinking they'd stick dye in left. that's why i was talking about dye in relation to anderson.) trade him to a different team, if you can find a match.

 

main point, as i said, was that i think we should focus on trading dye. don't matter to me where he goes as long as it gets us help in some of the areas we've talked about. there seems to be a thought floating around that by emptying all our guys who had s***ty seasons (eg, swish, vazquez, fields) we'll get good value back. that mystifies me. no one'll want those guys coming off seasons like this, and given their age and past performance they're all reasonably likely to perform better next season. you'd be selling low on them and hanging on to a good candidate for decline in dye. that's strange to me.

[max power]

Dye played excellent defense in right field this year, better than Quentin in left, a somewhat easier position. If you need swish in your lineup, you put him at first, not dye. Dye slowing down and playing crappy D is nothing more than yet another soxtalk myth.

[Princess Dye]

Dye slowing down and playing crappy D is nothing more than yet another soxtalk myth.

 

Are you saying he's never going to slow down??

 

I mean, he'll be 80 at some point

[max power]

Are you saying he's never going to slow down??

 

I mean, he'll be 80 at some point

 

People were saying he was slowing down in 2007, when he wasn't playing great D. He looked fantastic out there most of the time in 2008. I'm saying the people here suck at predicting when it will happen and should suspend their disbelief in his ability to be an above average right fielder.

 

The bottom line is the 2009 defense would still be better with quentin in left and jermaine in right, than swisher in left and quentin in right. I expect Quentin to improve defensively and take the right field job in 2010.

[caulfield12]

I get that we would be selling "low," but how many times has KW gone out of traded one of our best players (on the major league roster) in the prime of their career, down year or not? Aaron Rowand? Well, 2005 wasn't his best year, not even close. Garcia was coming off a so-so year and was injury-plagued and had diminished velocity when we dealt him for Gavin.

 

He very rarely makes trades with our core players (from the starting line-up)...with the exception of Carlos Lee, and that was mostly about payroll, but also about changing the "me first" attitude of the team offensively, along with letting Magglio go (and we all agree, coming off hernias and Swiss doctors and the mystery that it would have been insane to sign him for the money and length of contract the Tigers did).

 

Recently, the only other players that come to mind are probably McCarthy and Chris Young, although there were question marks if they were ready to be regular contributors for the Sox in the following seasons...

 

[greg775]

It's funny we are discussing the future so much. I doubt we did this in 05. Too excited about what was going on in the present at that time. We actually could come back and win this series if the Sox play the kind of ball they've been playing at home most of the year.

Edited October 5, 2008 by greg775

[caulfield12]

Did anyone see that play Dye made in the first? Whether it's the post-season, or he's just feeling better physically...we're seeing Dye get to some balls he ordinarily wouldn't reach.

 

We're also seeing Dotel and Jenks find another 2-3 MPH on our their fastballs, which is encouraging, especially with Dotel. You just wonder why he couldn't pitch with that sense of urgency all season long, like he did with Longoria. Maybe his arm IS bouncing back final after all the injuries and surgery...I know some here are skeptical of Dotel and compare him to a train wreck or Ebola, but there's no doubting he can get a strikeout when he's "on."

 

Matt Thornton continues to be a pitcher that broadcasters paying attention to him for the first time are saying "wow" about. How the Mariners could give up on Matt, and the Phillies with Floyd, is beyond me.

 

Nice to see that as Danks has matured, he's also found an extra 2-3 MPH on his fastball. The first time I saw him in a ST game on WGN, I thought he was going to struggle to throw 90 MPH. This was something I waited for with Garland...but it never really happened. I guess with Garland, throwing the sinking fastball actually has a detrimental affect and gets it up in the zone instead of creating more natural movement.

Edited October 6, 2008 by caulfield12

[False Alarm]

I get that we would be selling "low," but how many times has KW gone out of traded one of our best players (on the major league roster) in the prime of their career, down year or not? Aaron Rowand? Well, 2005 wasn't his best year, not even close. Garcia was coming off a so-so year and was injury-plagued and had diminished velocity when we dealt him for Gavin.

 

He very rarely makes trades with our core players (from the starting line-up)...with the exception of Carlos Lee, and that was mostly about payroll, but also about changing the "me first" attitude of the team offensively, along with letting Magglio go (and we all agree, coming off hernias and Swiss doctors and the mystery that it would have been insane to sign him for the money and length of contract the Tigers did).

 

Recently, the only other players that come to mind are probably McCarthy and Chris Young, although there were question marks if they were ready to be regular contributors for the Sox in the following seasons...

yeah, kenny doesn't deal core guys--except when he does. and are you saying the perception of 2005 aaron rowand was that he had a disappointing season? cuz that's not what i remember at all. but you'll have trouble finding me someone who doesn't consider swish's 2008 disappointing.

 

also, stop conflating our speculating about what we think would be best for the team with what we think kenny'll do. i already said he probably sees angles here you and i'll never consider. i thought this was basically a thread for joe fan to discuss what he thinks are the best ways to reshape the team. my bad if i was mistaken.

 

i like dye. love him even. but he makes the most sense to move at this point. you've said nothing to make anyone think otherwise, from where i stand. i guess i'd like to see you make a case for him rather than harping on kenny's history or talking about how some team wouldn't like him or basically dwelling on the idea of unloading our trash for someone else's really good avg-contact-def middle infielder.

[caulfield12]

1) Dye's going into the final year of his contract in 09...so he's worth less to another team

2) He's 35 years old

3) Most scouts and GM's consider his numbers inflated by playing at US Cellular...for instance, this year he had 62 RBI's at home, versus 34 on the road. (Although actually he's had almost the same number of homers on road as at home, but more RBI's in Chicago).

4) You'd have to move Quentin from LF to RF, where he's subpar defensively and lacks Dye's arm strength

5) There's concern he can't keep having years like this one statistically...that eventually his bat speed will slow down

6) You're going to be very hard-pressed to find another player who can lead the American League in homers from RF from 2005-2008...we need to tailor our team to our ballpark, and that's why we're 20+ games over .500 at US Cell, despite the problems it causes on the road and on turf

 

Rowand's best season with the White Sox wasn't 2005...in fact, at the end of the season, he was a walking DP machine. If my memory is correct, 2004 was, when he had loads of doubles and had much better overall numbers than 05. He got a lot of attention because of how he played defensively in NY in 2003 and 2005, but 2005 was a "meh" season for him offensively and in the post-season.

 

I never said Swisher's season wasn't disappointing...just that he has equal or more value (vis a vis Dye) to another team because of his youth and "predictable/locked in" contract status for the immediate future. I just don't think KW would keep Swisher and trade Dye...even though he's not sentimental about parting with Sox players, Dye is one of his favorites. And he came to play for the Sox in 05 for a bargain contract coming off an injury. So I think there's a lot of reciprocal respect, whereas Swisher has made no friends by pouting so much on the bench the final two weeks. Fortunately for the Sox, it's hard to pout on the bench during the playoffs without looking like an A-S.

Edited October 6, 2008 by caulfield12

[Kalapse]

Carlos Quentin is not a sub par defender in RF. Before arriving in Chicago he played exclusively in RF and was considered to be an excellent defender. Carlos spent the 2008 season learning a new position, LF. After spending his entire professional baseball career on the right side of the OF he had to learn the angles of the left side, he's definitely had some growing pains out there but that's to be expected, it is a totally different position (hence why Griffey isn't comfortable playing LF, he has no experience at the position.)

 

And his arm strength is definitely comparable to that of Jermaine Dye (Edgar Renteria says hi), actually one could argue that Carlos has a more dangerous throwing arm since Jermaine's fundamentals f***ing suck. (if you're going to teach your kid how to throw from the OF whatever you do, do NOT let him watch Jermaine Dye)

[caulfield12]

Well, I think everyone would agree it would have been very difficult for the White Sox to win this year (or next) with Ryan Sweeney starting in RF.

 

His fundamentals are nearly perfect in terms of defense and throwing...maybe I've have some bias in Jermaine's case because he is (along with Thome) such a genuine "good guy" both on the off the field, and I fell in love with the way he and Vladimir Guerrero played when I saw both of them all the time playing for Albany and Macon way back in 1994.

 

In fact, in the SAL All-Star game, Guerrero took a ball off the fence and threw a laser in the air from RF that got the runner coming into 3rd standing up...he had no clue what had just happened, or that it was possible to happen.

 

PS Why couldn't Torii Hunter play against us in CF (like he has done tonight for the Angels against BOS tonight) this way when he was with the Twins?

Edited October 6, 2008 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,5813216.story

 

Phil Rogers article on this subject: mentions Figgins and Hudson, idea that the leading candidate for 5th starter is definitely Clayton Richard

 

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=240489

 

Very worthwhile article on KW, his philosophy and thinking about current team and future

Edited October 6, 2008 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

PS Why couldn't Torii Hunter play against us in CF (like he has done tonight for the Angels against BOS tonight) this way when he was with the Twins?

 

He did last year. He still makes the highlight reel play but he's lost a good 3 steps in CF.

[caulfield12]

Thought I would put this back on the first page...I'm sure those who feel inclined (maybe not tonight...give it a day or two) will chime in with their thoughts as KW approaches the off-season with the goal of somehow getting us back into the playoffs next year without blowing the budget or giving away Aaron Poreda.

Edited October 6, 2008 by caulfield12

[DaGame]

Thought I would put this back on the first page...I'm sure those who feel inclined (maybe not tonight...give it a day or two) will chime in with their thoughts as KW approaches the off-season with the goal of somehow getting us back into the playoffs next year without blowing the budget or giving away Aaron Poreda.

Sign Hudson, trade PK for Figgins.

[witesoxfan]

Sign Hudson, trade PK for Figgins.

 

PK for Figgins would be an absolutely horrendous move. Add to I could very easily see Anaheim resigning Tex and it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

[caulfield12]

It makes sense only from a Lee/Pods sense, depending on KW does with the money saved. If it was Figgins and reliable 5th starter=Konerko, then maybe. Or solidifying 2B, 3B and CF. Like the Garza/Bartlett for Delmon Young deal...same idea.

[DaGame]

PK for Figgins would be an absolutely horrendous move. Add to I could very easily see Anaheim resigning Tex and it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yeah I know, what was KW thinking when he traded Lee for Pods. lol, it's the same idea.

 

Also I would try to sign Punto to replace Uribe.

Edited October 7, 2008 by DaGame2584

[witesoxfan]

It makes sense only from a Lee/Pods sense, depending on KW does with the money saved. If it was Figgins and reliable 5th starter=Konerko, then maybe. Or solidifying 2B, 3B and CF. Like the Garza/Bartlett for Delmon Young deal...same idea.

 

The Twins got Brendan Harris and gave up a damn good relief prospect in Eduardo Morlan (who they could have dearly used this season). I don't think that trade holds the same grounds. I also think Lee was dealt because Ozzie no longer liked him and the Sox needed the financial flexibility, and that it was strictly a cost-cutting move while plugging a couple holes at the same time.

 

I wouldn't care if Konerko was traded or not, but I just strongly doubt it's going to be with the Angels. I also still don't understand the fascination with Chone Figgins...he's versatile and can draw a walk. Figgins and Willits can stay in Anaheim for all I care.

[caulfield12]

Yeah I know, what was KW thinking when he traded Lee for Pods. lol, it's the same idea.

 

Also I would try to sign Punto to replace Uribe.

 

 

Essentially

 

Ordonez/Valentin/Carlos Lee

 

The thing that people forget is that our payroll was so low that year, compared to what it has become since 06.

[witesoxfan]

Yeah I know, what was KW thinking when he traded Lee for Pods. lol, it's the same idea.

 

Also I would try to sign Punto to replace Uribe.

 

Because the Sox are still a poor organization with several holes to fill and only so much cash left to fill them...? Paul Konerko is going to make like $12 mill and I'd imagine Figgins is going to be somewhere around $5-7 mill. That's not enough salary disparity for the Sox to get anything super beneficial out of it. Lee was making $8 mill while Podsednik and Vizcaino combined were making $2 mill in a market that was not nearly as crazy as the current free agent market is. The comparison isn't valid.

 

I'm also going to puke merely at the suggestion of Punto for Uribe. There'd be virtually nothing he could do in a White Sox uniform that would make me like him.

 

The thing that people forget is that our payroll was so low that year, compared to what it has become since 06.

 

That

Edited October 7, 2008 by witesoxfan

[BurlyMan56]

Welcome Aboard Nate Mclouth, Ian Snell, Doug Brocail, Casey Blake and Robinson Cano. See ya OC, Crede, Macdougal, Logan, Griffey, Dye and whoever else it'll take to get those guys here.

[witesoxfan]

Welcome Aboard Nate Mclouth, Ian Snell, Doug Brocail, Casey Blake and Robinson Cano. See ya OC, Crede, Macdougal, Logan, Griffey, Dye and whoever else it'll take to get those guys here.

 

Yeah no

[caulfield12]

Don't think we have the talent to get either McLouth (that the Pirates would desire) or Cano...let alone both of them.

 

Nobody is interested in MacDougal, unless we just release him outright.

 

We don't need to overpay for veteran loogies and we certainly don't want Snell on our team? Was this person listening/watching when he faced the Sox? Even the Pirates' announcers, usually mild-mannered, were getting really agitated/irritated with him.

Edited October 7, 2008 by caulfield12