Trading Swisher

[rangercal]

You people that would rather have Swisher than Dye because "Swisher's value is low right now"

 

lol...

 

you may have a few people to agree with you. But, you are in the minority. For the record, I'd rather keep Swisher over Thome. Let Dye DH.

[witesoxfan]

you may have a few people to agree with you. But, you are in the minority. For the record, I'd rather keep Swisher over Thome. Let Dye DH.

 

That I strongly disagree with. You'll get little to no value for a player who is solely a DH. You can get value for a player who can play an adequate RF. You also lose the left handed presence in the middle of the lineup.

[GoodAsGould]

That I strongly disagree with. You'll get little to no value for a player who is solely a DH. You can get value for a player who can play an adequate RF. You also lose the left handed presence in the middle of the lineup.

 

I like JD a lot more than I do Thome, but if we are going to get a far superior package of players for Dye than it's a no brainer in who to get rid of.

[SouthsideDon48]

Because one of these guys have to be traded and Swisher is the only one who can't block a trade. It's not really that complicated. Thome would be the guy I'd want to dump too, but he'll only go to the Indians or Cubs. Cubs don't need him and we're not dealing with the Indians, so Thome is here no matter what. Paulie might go to the West Coast, but only if he feels like it. He doesn't have to go anywhere.

 

 

Hmmmmm, why not deal with the Indians? If Thome would let us trade him there, then lets do it. He's been clogging up our basepaths for years now, let him clog up theirs, instead.

[witesoxfan]

Hmmmmm, why not deal with the Indians? If Thome would let us trade him there, then lets do it. He's been clogging up our basepaths for years now, let him clog up theirs, instead.

 

yeah trade your third best hitter to a team that finished 7.5 games back when they traded CC Sabathia in June.

[Dick Allen]

That is what people often forget. Not just about Thome, but when it comes to player value. It's not always black and white. Players have different values to different teams.

 

One of the players that has been brought up recently is Vazquez. One obvious destination is Milwaukee. Some argue that Vazquez doesn't have much value, but it's all relative. IMO, a starting pitcher signed to a reasonable dollar figure(11.5) for two years much more attractive to a team like the Brewers than the Red Sox, or even the Pirates. I say that because the Brewers are in a position with money to spend and a window to compete, but in a small market, long term, high priced deals can be franchise killers. A 2 year commitment to a above average, inning eating starter is a really solid fit. With the Red Sox, money really hasn't been a huge issue for the Saux, so more risks are able to be taken. With the Pirates, Vazquez basically has no value to them, as it will be at least 3+ years until they are a competitive ballclub, making Vazquez irrelevant.

 

 

That was kind of drawn out for a short point, but it's late.

I can't understand how $11.5 million a year is considered a "reasonable" dollar figure for a guy who probably will perform league average or slightly below like he has 3 of his 4 AL years and like he did his year in Arizona. There was some telling quotes from him during the playoffs when asked about winning big games. He didn't say he could win them, only that he hasn't been involved in many of them.

The other thing to consider is the economy is probably going to get worse before it gets better, and that will trickle down to MLB eventually. Average to below average performers making $11.5 million aren't going to be highly sought after.

[Reddy]

why don't any of you swish bashers actually look at the stats! his batting average to balls in play showed that he was sickeningly unlucky in the first half, and things would have rebounded if he hadn't been benched for Griffey. If you recall his average was up to the .230s and then Griff showed up. without consistent playing time, nobody does well, especially a guy who's been struggling. he. will. be. fine.

[rangercal]

That I strongly disagree with. You'll get little to no value for a player who is solely a DH. You can get value for a player who can play an adequate RF. You also lose the left handed presence in the middle of the lineup.

 

It's not about just trying to get the best value. I'm looking at a fine balance of trying to get value in return and fielding the best team possible. I'm not too worried about losing the LH presence, either. Heck, if Nick Swisher turns it around like this organization would be banking on by keeping him and moving Thome, he's a switch hitter. So it would be different from our early 2000's RRRR middle of the order. Do you Think the value of JD is so high that it would be worth moving him over Thome? That's the stumbling block for me.

[witesoxfan]

It's not about just trying to get the best value. I'm looking at a fine balance of trying to get value in return and fielding the best team possible. I'm not too worried about losing the LH presence, either. Heck, if Nick Swisher turns it around like this organization would be banking on by keeping him and moving Thome, he's a switch hitter. So it would be different from our early 2000's RRRR middle of the order.

 

Swisher is going to hit in the bottom of the order unless he proves himself capable of hitting 30+ homers again with a respectable average. I don't think you can quite count on that. Aside from that, the only other left handed hitters the Sox will have will be Wise and possibly Owens and/or Getz. You also force the opposing manager's with a lefty in the middle of the lineup, as he burns up a pitcher quicker.

 

Do you Think the value of JD is so high that it would be worth moving him over Thome? That's the stumbling block for me.

 

Quite the opposite; I think Thome's value is so low that it's not worth moving him. He'd likely only accept a trade to like 3 teams, whereas you can move Dye to any of like 23 or 25 teams, and his value is higher as well, seeing as how Thome can't play the field and stay healthy either.

[elrockinMT]

Right now if I were a GM of another team, I'd freaking drool at the chance to buy Paulie low. The guy is an above average first baseman with a great contract. He showed that when healthy he is as productive as ever and he's been a very good post-season player (this post-season included). The guy was huge for the Sox down the stretch this year and I don't think I'd trade him without getting very good value.

 

Thome would be a guy I'd consider moving, but he's just too cheap so really the only spots you can upgrade are 2B/3B/CF and the Sox may go in-house at one of those spots and need to move Swish to free up another one of those spots.

 

 

I have to agree with what you are saying here. Why trade Dye, who is still a productive hitter, a great RBI guy, good fielder and a team player. PK is the captain of the team and was plagued by injuries in 2008. When healthy he will hit .300/35 HR/110 RBI

 

Thome maybe, but you are limited to DH roles and he still can hit the homer and get on base via the walk so I see CF/3B and 2B as the spots where upgrades can be made too. But, I am thinking Swisher is in CF most of the time again with some at LF/RF and 1B

[scotty22hotty]

I love it when people who know nothing about baseball propose trades...

The Sox were 2 players short of going to the ALCS, TCQ and Count...

With these 2 players, the Sox would not have gone to the 4man and would have clinched in MIN. (also allowing rest for the starting 8)

Trust me, going into the Playoffs with your rotation set does wonders for your entire team.

 

[Chisoxfn]

I would love to package Swisher and a prospect for David DeJesus. Heck, maybe even offer up Brian Anderson in the package. DeJesus would be a perfect fit in the 2 spot and would allow the Sox to focus the rest of the off-season finding a 3B/2Bman. DeJesus hits for an average and is well liked, but Swisher still can hit for power and is a guy that I'm sure the fan base would rally around in KC. Again, I don't know if the Royals do that deal but DeJesus would be one of my top priorities if I were Kenny.

 

Kenny could than decide what to do with Josh Fields. Personally I'd target a young 3rd baseman and than consider going with Alexei and DeJesus a top the order with Getz and a young 3rd baseman (Not FIELDS though) rounding things out. IT would be a cheap off-season and Kenny could potentially find a way to pick up another reliever and than obviously the club would have to find another starter as I'd anticipate the trade of Javy Vazquez.

[SoxFan562004]

Swisher probably doesn't have a ton of value. He OPS+ about 125 the last two full years. He was playing a new position and his batting style is more valubable in the 2nd or 1st hole. With him and Q back next year hitting 2 and 3 the Sox will see a lot of pitches, something the lineup at the end of the year was not doing. He is still a good player and I want to see him have another shot

[jenksycat]

I have to agree with what you are saying here. Why trade Dye, who is still a productive hitter, a great RBI guy, good fielder and a team player. PK is the captain of the team and was plagued by injuries in 2008. When healthy he will hit .300/35 HR/110 RBI

 

Thome maybe, but you are limited to DH roles and he still can hit the homer and get on base via the walk so I see CF/3B and 2B as the spots where upgrades can be made too. But, I am thinking Swisher is in CF most of the time again with some at LF/RF and 1B

 

You trade Dye, because of the 4, he has the most value and is coming off a good year and would be the easiest to trade. He isn't getting any younger or faster, so why not trade him at almost top value?

[Dick Allen]

One other thing to keep in mind is Dye's option at the end of 2009. If he stays with the Sox and they exercise that option at that time, Dye will be a 5 and 10 man.

[caulfield12]

I would love to package Swisher and a prospect for David DeJesus. Heck, maybe even offer up Brian Anderson in the package. DeJesus would be a perfect fit in the 2 spot and would allow the Sox to focus the rest of the off-season finding a 3B/2Bman. DeJesus hits for an average and is well liked, but Swisher still can hit for power and is a guy that I'm sure the fan base would rally around in KC. Again, I don't know if the Royals do that deal but DeJesus would be one of my top priorities if I were Kenny.

 

Kenny could than decide what to do with Josh Fields. Personally I'd target a young 3rd baseman and than consider going with Alexei and DeJesus a top the order with Getz and a young 3rd baseman (Not FIELDS though) rounding things out. IT would be a cheap off-season and Kenny could potentially find a way to pick up another reliever and than obviously the club would have to find another starter as I'd anticipate the trade of Javy Vazquez.

 

 

The problem with DeJesus is that he's just a so-so CFer (arm strength again)...he's essentially a corner outfielder playing CF. Traditionally, you need to have more pop from the corner/s, which is where they have Guillen and Teahen (who also lacks pop for RF/3B on a good team) playing the majority of time.

 

He's a nice little player, but I don't think he's the answer either. And I highly doubt that Dayton Moore would make that move...certainly not for Anderson, they have a player with more potential (Gathright) but many of the same offensive woes, as well as nagging injury problems.

 

DeJesus is the kind of player who will be quietly making about $8 million soon, and I'm not sure he's THAT good...I mean, I would rather keep Anderson and not pay DeJesus that much of a difference (like the discussion about Getz at minimum versus Hudson at $12 million). All things being equal, I would rather put $8 million in the starting rotation than David DeJesus over BA.

 

I don't see why we have to anticipate a Vazquez trade, unless the Great Depression really is upon us, in which case the entire payroll would have to come down 25-30% to offset a loss of season ticket sales...it will be interesting if the Dow falls another 1-2,000 points, how that drop starts affecting revenues, payrolls, company promotions and season ticket sales, and which markets will be hardest hit. The irony is the economy going south really helps the Sox, because the Chicago area is more resilient I think than Detroit and Cleveland. I don't know if KW is having this thought, and maybe I'm reading too much into the downturn, but I think this will be an interesting area to monitor...cutbacks in sports promotion and advertising in general during times of austerity. Well, as Darth Vader/James Earl Jones said famously, "people will come."

Edited October 9, 2008 by caulfield12

[Chisoxfn]

The problem with DeJesus is that he's just a so-so CFer (arm strength again)...he's essentially a corner outfielder playing CF. Traditionally, you need to have more pop from the corner/s, which is where they have Guillen and Teahen (who also lacks pop for RF/3B on a good team) playing the majority of time.

 

He's a nice little player, but I don't think he's the answer either. And I highly doubt that Dayton Moore would make that move...certainly not for Anderson, they have a player with more potential (Gathright) but many of the same offensive woes, as well as nagging injury problems.

 

DeJesus is the kind of player who will be quietly making about $8 million soon, and I'm not sure he's THAT good...I mean, I would rather keep Anderson and not pay DeJesus that much of a difference (like the discussion about Getz at minimum versus Hudson at $12 million). All things being equal, I would rather put $8 million in the starting rotation than David DeJesus over BA.

 

I don't see why we have to anticipate a Vazquez trade, unless the Great Depression really is upon us, in which case the entire payroll would have to come down 25-30% to offset a loss of season ticket sales...it will be interesting if the Dow falls another 1-2,000 points, how that drop starts affecting revenues, payrolls, company promotions and season ticket sales, and which markets will be hardest hit. The irony is the economy going south really helps the Sox, because the Chicago area is more resilient I think than Detroit and Cleveland. I don't know if KW is having this thought, and maybe I'm reading too much into the downturn, but I think this will be an interesting area to monitor...cutbacks in sports promotion and advertising in general during times of austerity. Well, as Darth Vader/James Earl Jones said famously, "people will come."

The Sox will trade Javy because he's a pussy. And they can be cheap all they want but they don't have s*** out there that can play CF and produce offensively and I'm sick and tired of seeing absolute s*** production in CF. They need to get an average hitter, yes, an actual guy that can hit for an average (novel concept I know) and they don't have anyone in house who can do that with the exception of Ramirez. Thats why DeJesus makes a ton of sense. I'd give up Poreda for DeJesus. He's perfectly fine in CF too, imo.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Not really, people don't want to dump Swish for a s***ty A ball pitcher after his worst year ever. Dye is old and had a good year and we may be able to get decent value from him.

Why in the world would you think Swisher's value is a s***ty A ball pitcher? This is yet another case of Sox fans way overvaluing or undervaluing their own players.

 

Think about it this way: if Swisher comes here and does what he did that one year in Oakland, and he performs to his ceiling, Swisher isn't available for anything less than the superstars on the market, like possibly Roy Halladay, Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard, and Jake Peavy.

 

Swisher had a down year in 2007 - and "selling low" on Swisher netted Billy Beane Gio, DLS, and Sweeney. I don't know why people think Beane sold high on Swish, he didn't sell high at all. Swisher seriously regressed from the previous year, and had he not regressed he would've cost much more than the Sox could have offered.

 

Let's say you are a GM. There is a guy like Swish available who is still coming into his prime, is versatile, and on a cheap contract for the next few seasons. Players like this don't usually become available. If you offer nothing but garbage then you're not getting that player.

 

There are teams out there with young players who haven't set the world on fire that the Sox like. If a deal could be made that swaps out one underachieving player with a star ceiling for another, and that deal addresses other needs and in turn makes the club as a whole better, why wouldn't you consider it? Because Swisher's value is low? That's stupid. You guys make all these comments about not wanting GM's who will sell low on a player, but every GM is forced to sell low on players. If Swish comes back next year and has a season just like 2008 people all over this board will be b****ing about KW acquiring a s***ty player and waiting too long to deal him.

 

Kenny isn't going to give up Swish for scraps if he trades him at all, and no GM out there is going to actually think he can pick up Swisher for some s***ty A-ball pitcher. If the Giants on the other hand offer a deal centered around Fred Lewis, who would give us a lead-off hitter and fill CF, or the Yankees offered Melky Cabrera and a prospect, or the Rays offered a young pitcher, etc. why wouldn't you consider it?

 

Out of the four players mentioned, Swish/Dye/Paulie/Thome, Swisher might have the most value of the group. He at the very least has the 2nd most value of the group and there's no reason to think that just because he had a bad year no other team would offer anything of value for him.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The Sox will trade Javy because he's a pussy. And they can be cheap all they want but they don't have s*** out there that can play CF and produce offensively and I'm sick and tired of seeing absolute s*** production in CF. They need to get an average hitter, yes, an actual guy that can hit for an average (novel concept I know) and they don't have anyone in house who can do that with the exception of Ramirez. Thats why DeJesus makes a ton of sense. I'd give up Poreda for DeJesus. He's perfectly fine in CF too, imo.

I agree, I like DeJesus too. He's not a blazing speed guy, but he hits for average, walks, and is clutch. He's just a smart hitter, plain and simple, and because of his production, even though he doesn't hit for a lot of power you can still move him to LF in the future, with Carlos moving to RF if you want a better CF. We do need speed on this team, and we need to be able to manufacture runs, but that's not the only thing missing from this lineup. We also need some guys who will hit the f***ing ball when they are supposed to hit the f***ing ball.

[jenksycat]

Why in the world would you think Swisher's value is a s***ty A ball pitcher? This is yet another case of Sox fans way overvaluing or undervaluing their own players.

 

Think about it this way: if Swisher comes here and does what he did that one year in Oakland, and he performs to his ceiling, Swisher isn't available for anything less than the superstars on the market, like possibly Roy Halladay, Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard, and Jake Peavy.

 

Swisher had a down year in 2007 - and "selling low" on Swisher netted Billy Beane Gio, DLS, and Sweeney. I don't know why people think Beane sold high on Swish, he didn't sell high at all. Swisher seriously regressed from the previous year, and had he not regressed he would've cost much more than the Sox could have offered.

 

Let's say you are a GM. There is a guy like Swish available who is still coming into his prime, is versatile, and on a cheap contract for the next few seasons. Players like this don't usually become available. If you offer nothing but garbage then you're not getting that player.

 

There are teams out there with young players who haven't set the world on fire that the Sox like. If a deal could be made that swaps out one underachieving player with a star ceiling for another, and that deal addresses other needs and in turn makes the club as a whole better, why wouldn't you consider it? Because Swisher's value is low? That's stupid. You guys make all these comments about not wanting GM's who will sell low on a player, but every GM is forced to sell low on players. If Swish comes back next year and has a season just like 2008 people all over this board will be b****ing about KW acquiring a s***ty player and waiting too long to deal him.

 

Kenny isn't going to give up Swish for scraps if he trades him at all, and no GM out there is going to actually think he can pick up Swisher for some s***ty A-ball pitcher. If the Giants on the other hand offer a deal centered around Fred Lewis, who would give us a lead-off hitter and fill CF, or the Yankees offered Melky Cabrera and a prospect, or the Rays offered a young pitcher, etc. why wouldn't you consider it?

 

Out of the four players mentioned, Swish/Dye/Paulie/Thome, Swisher might have the most value of the group. He at the very least has the 2nd most value of the group and there's no reason to think that just because he had a bad year no other team would offer anything of value for him.

 

Again, I'll state this little idea since nobody seems to answer it: If getting Swish is such a great idea for other teams (coming into his prime, versitle, cheap, etc) WHY THE HELL WOULD THE WHITE SOX GET RID OF HIM? If there is apparently a ton of interest in other teams in a guy like that, why f*** would the Sox not also be interested? Think about that stupid argument i've seen numerous times now, it makes no sense.

 

What does make sense is to trade an aging outfielder who had a great year while his value is the highest it will ever be, not trading a young outfielder coming off a down year. JD lost about 80mph on his swing near the end of the year, and if people think he's gonna replicate this season for 2 years you're nuts.

 

Thome isn't going anywhere, PK isn't going anywhere. That leaves the older max-valued Dye and younger min-valued Swish. So if you're argument is "Well Swish has awesome value" then again, why the f*** would we get rid of a guy with that much upside?

 

And I'm sorry, I love Swish and all, but even if he hits that "ceiling" you're not getting Roy f***ing Holliday or Peavy for him.

[greg775]

why don't any of you swish bashers actually look at the stats! his batting average to balls in play showed that he was sickeningly unlucky in the first half, and things would have rebounded if he hadn't been benched for Griffey. If you recall his average was up to the .230s and then Griff showed up. without consistent playing time, nobody does well, especially a guy who's been struggling. he. will. be. fine.

 

he.will.be.fine?

Maybe. I look at the stats and see a horrific batting average. Worse than that, my own eyes made me sick seeing him at the plate much of his first year in Chicago. I will root for him if we keep him, and KW hugging him and saying, 'Start over in spring training' makes me believe we will keep him. But to ask somebody to praise Swisher after that horses*** season in which Oz was so sick of watching him bat he benched his ass, is asking a lot.

[santo=dorf]

LOL, Konerko is an "above average 1B with a great contract"? Say that again? He's an average 1B with a bad contract in the downside of his career. We are stuck with him 2 more years, I just hope he can put up an 850OPS in one of those years and not completely s*** the bed in the other.

He's making as much money as Jose Guillen. I don't think his contract is that bad and he had better numbers than the "versatile" (AKA being bad in CF becasue the manager just throws you out there) Swish Nickowiak.

 

I think he's worth keeping around just for the fact he's reasonably sign for the future, but if someone offers you a good deal, you pull the trigger.

[Dick Allen]

Why in the world would you think Swisher's value is a s***ty A ball pitcher? This is yet another case of Sox fans way overvaluing or undervaluing their own players.

 

Think about it this way: if Swisher comes here and does what he did that one year in Oakland, and he performs to his ceiling, Swisher isn't available for anything less than the superstars on the market, like possibly Roy Halladay, Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard, and Jake Peavy.

 

..

Your first paragraph is true. Your second is ridiculous and hypocritical. Talk about overvaluing a White Sox player.....

[Kyyle23]

he.will.be.fine?

Maybe. I look at the stats and see a horrific batting average. Worse than that, my own eyes made me sick seeing him at the plate much of his first year in Chicago. I will root for him if we keep him, and KW hugging him and saying, 'Start over in spring training' makes me believe we will keep him. But to ask somebody to praise Swisher after that horses*** season in which Oz was so sick of watching him bat he benched his ass, is asking a lot.

 

 

Because nobody in the history of the MLB has ever had a bad year and came back from it, right?

[jenksycat]

Because nobody in the history of the MLB has ever had a bad year and came back from it, right?

 

Hey now, dont try to bring logic in here. Apparently there are a ton of teams interested in a young, versatile, power hitting guy like Swish and we could get an awesome return for him, but for some reason the sox wouldn't be interested in a guy like that depsite already having him on the f***ing team.

We could always wait till the trading deadline and get A-rod for him, right?