Trading Swisher

[Kyyle23]

Hey now, dont try to bring logic in here. Apparently there are a ton of teams interested in a young, versatile, power hitting guy like Swish and we could get an awesome return for him, but for some reason the sox wouldn't be interested in a guy like that depsite already having him on the f***ing team.

We could always wait till the trading deadline and get A-rod for him, right?

 

 

I humbly defer to non-logic(unlogic? ir-logic?)

[StrangeSox]

Your first paragraph is true. Your second is ridiculous and hypocritical. Talk about overvaluing a White Sox player.....

 

Have to agree there. Swisher is just not really an MVP/ Cy Young caliber player.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Again, I'll state this little idea since nobody seems to answer it: If getting Swish is such a great idea for other teams (coming into his prime, versitle, cheap, etc) WHY THE HELL WOULD THE WHITE SOX GET RID OF HIM? If there is apparently a ton of interest in other teams in a guy like that, why f*** would the Sox not also be interested? Think about that stupid argument i've seen numerous times now, it makes no sense.

 

The Sox don't need Swisher next year. He's the 3rd best hitting OF and he's not very good in CF. He's the 2nd best hitting first baseman, and he doesn't have the bat to DH. If another team came along that needed an OF or 1B and didn't have the depth the Sox have, and that team was willing to give up another high ceiling player approaching his prime, and the player offered made for a better fit on this team, then that would be a great deal for the Sox.

 

Right now Swish is basically a 4th OF with the upside of an All-Star and he's on a cheap contract. If he could net say a pitcher who is now a 5th starter but has the upside of a #2 and also is on a cheap contract then that would help the Sox. If the Sox feel that there is a pitcher out there who has just as much of a chance at reaching his ceiling as Swisher does at rebounding to his career year in Oakland then what is wrong with that deal?

 

If it was 2006 and the Sox traded Nick Swisher for Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd I am sure you'd b**** about selling low on a player that might do something great again one day, but then you'd be proven wrong, and Kenny would be proven right. That's the type of deal I think the Sox should look into if offered.

 

What does make sense is to trade an aging outfielder who had a great year while his value is the highest it will ever be, not trading a young outfielder coming off a down year. JD lost about 80mph on his swing near the end of the year, and if people think he's gonna replicate this season for 2 years you're nuts.

 

JD has been one of the better run producers in baseball since 2005 with the only exception being the first half of '07. He'll be 35 and 36 over the next two years and he has the ability to DH or move to 1B if he loses too much ability to play LF. I'm nuts for thinking JD can keep it up over his age 35 and age 36 seasons? Fine, whatever. JD became a different hitter since coming here, and I think your comment about JD losing 80mph on his swing is stuff you've pulled right out of your ass. He had a powerless September and then went on to hit .375/.412/.625 in the playoffs.

 

As far as trading Dye, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I also wouldn't deal him specifically to open up a spot for Swisher, who is a career .244/.354/.451 hitter. I'd deal Dye if it made the team better, but Dye has been the most consistent run producer on this team since 2005 and Quentin hasn't had a fully healthy year since the minor leagues. Dealing your safest bet for a good, healthy, productive season could cause problems throughout the lineup.

 

Thome isn't going anywhere, PK isn't going anywhere. That leaves the older max-valued Dye and younger min-valued Swish. So if you're argument is "Well Swish has awesome value" then again, why the f*** would we get rid of a guy with that much upside?

 

When did I say Swish has awesome value? You're putting words in my mouth. I said because of his age and contract he should have the 1st or 2nd most value out of the four sluggers. No one on this teams sans about 5 obvious guys has what you could call "awesome value." How much Swisher's value is I don't know, it depends on what is out there.

 

The whole point is that Swisher has had one year where he has reached his upside and has regressed since then. If there is a team out there that offers a player the Sox feel is either a) as likely as Swish to reach his upside or b ) more likely than Swish to reach his upside, and if that player fills a larger need, then a deal makes sense. You seriously need to let go of this "don't trade players who have upside but haven't shown consistency because one day they might and you'll be sorry" type of thinking because nothing is guaranteed. From the way Swisher swung the bat pretty much all year long, he looks like a headcase. Josh Fields has a ton of upside, and he's flashed that too. Should we hold on to him no matter what? I'm not talking about dealing Swisher for garbage. I'm talking about trading Nick Swisher's potential for someone else with as much potential who fills another need.

 

And I'm sorry, I love Swish and all, but even if he hits that "ceiling" you're not getting Roy f***ing Holliday or Peavy for him.

Again, putting words in my mouth. I said Swisher wouldn't be available for anything less than an elite player if he hit his ceiling. That doesn't mean another team actually does the deal. It just means that if you have a 29 year old versatile player on a cheap contract who is hitting close to 40 HR, driving in close to 100 runs, and he's getting on base at a .370 plus clip, then you don't make him available for anything less than an elite player.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Your first paragraph is true. Your second is ridiculous and hypocritical. Talk about overvaluing a White Sox player.....

What is hypocritical? If Swisher put up the numbers here that he did in Oakland in 2006 would you make him available for anything less than an elite player? I never said he'd bring in any of those players, just that the conversation doesn't get going unless a better player is the subject.

[greg775]

Yes players are capable of bouncing back after bad years. But Swisher truly sucked. If he would have played like the guy everybody thought we were getting it would have severely lessened the loss of CQ. But he sucked so bad Ozzie wouldn't even play him down the stretch. Maybe he can bounce back. But he truly sucked. He was as bad as Paulie and Paulie got roasted on here; Swish got manlove.

[GoodAsGould]

Yes players are capable of bouncing back after bad years. But Swisher truly sucked. If he would have played like the guy everybody thought we were getting it would have severely lessened the loss of CQ. But he sucked so bad Ozzie wouldn't even play him down the stretch. Maybe he can bounce back. But he truly sucked. He was as bad as Paulie and Paulie got roasted on here; Swish got manlove.

 

Wow, a little overuse of the word sucked? He definitely didnt play well or anywhere near capable of what he is able to do, but 24 HR's is still fairly good out of a CF. He also was able to still walk 82 times and ended up with an OBP above that of Alexi, who everyone loves. Also its been well documented that he had terribly bad luck with linedrive outs. He wasn't as bad as some of you try and create him to be.

[greg775]

I respect the Swish lovers standing by their guy. But I wish they'd realize the "bad luck" argument is stupid. He had enough at bats to overcome "bad luck" on balls being hard hit but at people.

The bottom line is Ozzie pretty much gave up on the guy and Oz is our manager.

[scenario]

The Sox are not going to trade Swisher.

 

 

[GoodAsGould]

I respect the Swish lovers standing by their guy. But I wish they'd realize the "bad luck" argument is stupid. He had enough at bats to overcome "bad luck" on balls being hard hit but at people.

The bottom line is Ozzie pretty much gave up on the guy and Oz is our manager.

 

Im not a Swish lover I just posted stats to support he wasnt as bad as you "Swish Haters" think he was. While I love Ozzie its not like he doesnt make some questionable decisions at times, too much Griffey in CF and Wise(although he did well) in playoffs. Not too mention sometimes making a shaky lineup and obviously leaving in pitchers too long at times or over-managing at others etc.

[greg775]

Im not a Swish lover I just posted stats to support he wasnt as bad as you "Swish Haters" think he was

 

I can buy that. It should be interesting to see what Oz does with Swish if he gets off to a slow start next year. It's obvious he didn't want to go to war with the guy down the stretch. We shall see.

[jenksycat]

The Sox don't need Swisher next year. He's the 3rd best hitting OF and he's not very good in CF. He's the 2nd best hitting first baseman, and he doesn't have the bat to DH. If another team came along that needed an OF or 1B and didn't have the depth the Sox have, and that team was willing to give up another high ceiling player approaching his prime, and the player offered made for a better fit on this team, then that would be a great deal for the Sox.

 

Right now Swish is basically a 4th OF with the upside of an All-Star and he's on a cheap contract. If he could net say a pitcher who is now a 5th starter but has the upside of a #2 and also is on a cheap contract then that would help the Sox. If the Sox feel that there is a pitcher out there who has just as much of a chance at reaching his ceiling as Swisher does at rebounding to his career year in Oakland then what is wrong with that deal?

 

If it was 2006 and the Sox traded Nick Swisher for Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd I am sure you'd b**** about selling low on a player that might do something great again one day, but then you'd be proven wrong, and Kenny would be proven right. That's the type of deal I think the Sox should look into if offered.

 

 

 

JD has been one of the better run producers in baseball since 2005 with the only exception being the first half of '07. He'll be 35 and 36 over the next two years and he has the ability to DH or move to 1B if he loses too much ability to play LF. I'm nuts for thinking JD can keep it up over his age 35 and age 36 seasons? Fine, whatever. JD became a different hitter since coming here, and I think your comment about JD losing 80mph on his swing is stuff you've pulled right out of your ass. He had a powerless September and then went on to hit .375/.412/.625 in the playoffs.

 

As far as trading Dye, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I also wouldn't deal him specifically to open up a spot for Swisher, who is a career .244/.354/.451 hitter. I'd deal Dye if it made the team better, but Dye has been the most consistent run producer on this team since 2005 and Quentin hasn't had a fully healthy year since the minor leagues. Dealing your safest bet for a good, healthy, productive season could cause problems throughout the lineup.

 

 

 

When did I say Swish has awesome value? You're putting words in my mouth. I said because of his age and contract he should have the 1st or 2nd most value out of the four sluggers. No one on this teams sans about 5 obvious guys has what you could call "awesome value." How much Swisher's value is I don't know, it depends on what is out there.

 

The whole point is that Swisher has had one year where he has reached his upside and has regressed since then. If there is a team out there that offers a player the Sox feel is either a) as likely as Swish to reach his upside or b ) more likely than Swish to reach his upside, and if that player fills a larger need, then a deal makes sense. You seriously need to let go of this "don't trade players who have upside but haven't shown consistency because one day they might and you'll be sorry" type of thinking because nothing is guaranteed. From the way Swisher swung the bat pretty much all year long, he looks like a headcase. Josh Fields has a ton of upside, and he's flashed that too. Should we hold on to him no matter what? I'm not talking about dealing Swisher for garbage. I'm talking about trading Nick Swisher's potential for someone else with as much potential who fills another need.

 

 

Again, putting words in my mouth. I said Swisher wouldn't be available for anything less than an elite player if he hit his ceiling. That doesn't mean another team actually does the deal. It just means that if you have a 29 year old versatile player on a cheap contract who is hitting close to 40 HR, driving in close to 100 runs, and he's getting on base at a .370 plus clip, then you don't make him available for anything less than an elite player.

 

 

Let's say you are a GM. There is a guy like Swish available who is still coming into his prime, is versatile, and on a cheap contract for the next few seasons. Players like this don't usually become available.

 

if Swisher comes here and does what he did that one year in Oakland, and he performs to his ceiling, Swisher isn't available for anything less than the superstars on the market, like possibly Roy Halladay, Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard, and Jake Peavy.

 

Yeah....not putting words in your mouth, thats what you actually wrote. So i'll ask again, if there was a player coming off a down year that you believed had a large upside and you could get him relatively cheap, would you do it? Hmmmmmmmmmmm, kinda sounds like us already having Swisher.

 

 

The simple fact is, we may get ridiculously lucky and get a 30/90 Dye for 2 more years....then what? You have another guy who is too slow to play defense, and not good enough on offense to DH or maintain that level. So you waste your DH spot on a guy who's power disappeared and trade away guy 6 years younger who can play 4 positions, signed cheap, coming off a bad year. Makes sense.

 

I'm not saying Dye won't be decent for the next 2 years, but I'll take the possibility of Swish coming back strong (like not getting a hit for 3 months and still having a .332 OBP) and having him for 5+ years in addition to the return Dye would get from a team who saw his production vs. trading Swish for some ehh and having Dye decline over the next 2+ years.

 

 

 

 

[jenksycat]

I can buy that. It should be interesting to see what Oz does with Swish if he gets off to a slow start next year. It's obvious he didn't want to go to war with the guy down the stretch. We shall see.

 

Thats what I'm afraid of....Swish being in the "Oz-house" like BA and never playing. I love Ozzie, but him not playing guys over personal grudges is f***ing stupid. If we do retain Swish (which we would be stupid not to) and he plays 2x a week, then he will be the same if not worse as this year. If you keep him, then go with him and ride it out. If it doesn't work, then deal with it, but don't go half in - half out.

[kwolf68]

Thats what I'm afraid of....Swish being in the "Oz-house" like BA and never playing. I love Ozzie, but him not playing guys over personal grudges is f***ing stupid. If we do retain Swish (which we would be stupid not to) and he plays 2x a week, then he will be the same if not worse as this year. If you keep him, then go with him and ride it out. If it doesn't work, then deal with it, but don't go half in - half out.

 

 

What evidence do you have that Swisher was benched due to a personal grudge by Ozzie? Swisher was benched because he sucked....he was an automatic out for most of the year.

 

 

[max power]

What evidence do you have that Swisher was benched due to a personal grudge by Ozzie? Swisher was benched because he sucked....he was an automatic out for most of the year.

You can't really call him an automatic out when he gets on almost exactly 1/3 of the time. I don't think ozzie had a grudge against him, though.

[jenksycat]

What evidence do you have that Swisher was benched due to a personal grudge by Ozzie? Swisher was benched because he sucked....he was an automatic out for most of the year.

 

Swisher OBP = .332

Wise OBP = .293

BA OBP = .272

Dye OBP = .344

PK OBP = .344

 

He said he was unhappy with playing time, and Ozzie s*** over it. And now he may never leave the Oz House.

[Bubba Philips]

Swisher OBP = .332

Wise OBP = .293

BA OBP = .272

Dye OBP = .344

PK OBP = .344

 

He said he was unhappy with playing time, and Ozzie s*** over it. And now he may never leave the Oz House.

GRanted we all had high hopes for Swish this past season.. He won a few games for us..I believe one of the main reasons so many of us wanted to see him gone was his inabilty to hit in key situations. I have to agree with other posters saying they won't trade Swish this offseason.. Presently, I believe he is at his lowest value. He scares me the way he plays first base and is certainly not a centerfielder.. We have dye and Carlos on the corners. I think during spring training Swisher will get his chance to show he can improve his hitting approach. I'm sure if we all see Nick taking his first 2 pitches in an at bat down 0 and2 and then eventually making an out swinging at bad pitches is also viewed by Ozzie and KW as unacceptable. Wise, BA, DYE and Paulie in the last 2 months actually hit more effectively in the clutch.

 

[scenario]

Swisher batted .191 after the all-star game with a .298 OBP.

 

He batted .164 in September with a .238 OBP.

 

THAT is why he didn't play.

 

Not because he is in some fictitious 'doghouse'.

 

 

[GreatScott82]

Swisher batted .191 after the all-star game with a .298 OBP.

 

He batted .164 in September with a .238 OBP.

 

THAT is why he didn't play.

 

Not because he is in some fictitious 'doghouse'.

yep ozzie played his best lineup every night. after the last few years, i think this was a good year of managing by Ozzie. he played to win every game, he finally stopped worrying about his players feelings.

[jenksycat]

Swisher batted .191 after the all-star game with a .298 OBP.

 

He batted .164 in September with a .238 OBP.

 

THAT is why he didn't play.

 

Not because he is in some fictitious 'doghouse'.

 

Yes, this is true. But I'm talking about the future, next season. If he is in the oz-house next season because of that, then its stupid and pointless to even have him on the team.

[greg775]

It's dumb to say he's not in Ozzie's doghouse.

No. 1 he sucked during crunch time and most of the time otherwise.

No. 2 he brooeded on that Yankee, KC, Minnie road trip about not playing.

He has a lot to prove as a White Sox. His first year was horses***.

[ThunderBolt]

It's dumb to say he's not in Ozzie's doghouse.

No. 1 he sucked during crunch time and most of the time otherwise.

No. 2 he brooeded on that Yankee, KC, Minnie road trip about not playing.

He has a lot to prove as a White Sox. His first year was horses***.

1) Was crunch time that time when he was platooning with Konerko/Wise/BA? Because it's hard to find a nice rhythm when you're in and out of the lineup eveyday of the week.

2) That's all conjecture most of it by Cowley

Edited October 13, 2008 by Thunderbolt

[jenksycat]

It's dumb to say he's not in Ozzie's doghouse.

No. 1 he sucked during crunch time and most of the time otherwise.

No. 2 he brooeded on that Yankee, KC, Minnie road trip about not playing.

He has a lot to prove as a White Sox. His first year was horses***.

 

Like I said, he won't be able to prove anything if he only plays 2x a week.

[joeynach]

yep ozzie played his best lineup every night. after the last few years, i think this was a good year of managing by Ozzie. he played to win every game, he finally stopped worrying about his players feelings.

 

I disagree I think there were certain times where he made it a "B" squad night in terms of bullpen. Thus, we all know when the "B' squad came in the game was soon to get way out of hand cuz of how poor they really are. There were many times, especially in Sept after the rosters expanded, he used only the likes of Macdougal/Logan/Wasserman/Broadway/Ramirez. Im not saying he wasn't completely justified, it was obvious he was rolling out the "B" squad and saying if we slug to victory and out due the poor performance of the "B" squad then great, if not I just dont want to burn up the "A" squad. But that being said that is more of a conceding the game, saving arms for the next game (or series) type approach.

[knightni]

You sig needs to be updated Joey.

[greg775]

It's pretty obvious KW will keep him. Let's just hope he has a bounceback year. I'd give him a C for his first year in chicago with more frustrating moments than glorious ones.

 

Now that a week has passed since season's end, we should grade the players in a thread.

Should be a wild range of grades considering this season made people come out with strong opinions for and against players like Swish, Paulie, Dotel, Crede, etc.

Edited October 14, 2008 by greg775