Thinking Like KW on SS/2B situation

[caulfield12]

I was trying to figure out what move KW would make at 2B/SS and I came up with this all-encompassing list of possibilities...that could play SS and/or 2B, depending on what Williams decides to do with CF and SS (Alexei Ramirez).

 

Very unlikely

Age 20...Elvis Andrus, Braves

 

Prospects/Suspects

23...Marcus Sanders (SFG) coming off injury

23...Chris Nelson (Rockies) very, very low OPS in minors, once considered a premiere prospect

24...Joel Guzman (Rays) at 3B now, came up as SS, could he also play 2B, like Iwamura did with Longoria taking over there?

24...Joaquin Arias (Rangers)

24...Cliff Pennington (A's) Will take Crosby's spot???

24...Brandon Wood (Angels) Would the Angels give up on him this quickly?

25...Brent Lillibridge (Braves)

25...Sergio Santos (Twins)...once considered a star, Twins will never give him to us, unless he's released outright

26...Jayson Nix (Rockies)...a possible KW target???

 

Most Interesting Names (thinking of the Carlos Quentin acquisition)

23...Adam Jones, great athlete, came up as a SS originally, a few similarities with Alexei Ramirez (not power hitter yet, or accomplished basestealer)

25...Jose Lopez (Mariners) how expensive would he be to acquire?

25...Ronny Cedeno (Cubs) can he hit enough to not be a utility player?

26...Aaron Hill (Blue Jays) coming off very disappointing season

26...Richie Weeks (Brewers) DITTO, available for the right price?

26...JJ Hardy (Brewers) will be replaced soon by cheaper and younger Escobar, has he reached his peak? Cost of acquisition?

26...Josh Barfield (Indians) can he be rehabilitated, and would the Indians let us have him?

28...Scott Hairston (Padres) very interesting power numbers in limited at-bats, White Sox connection through father

 

Oldies but not goodies???

29...Bobby Crosby injury-prone, has BB given up on him?

29...Khalil Greene have Padres given up on him?

29...Chris Burke acquire at lowest possible price and see what he can do in ST? probably not a good idea to give starting job, let him compete with Getz

33...Kaz Matsui (great season at big league level after redeeming career, KW already has experience with Japanese players)

Edited October 14, 2008 by caulfield12

[Kalapse]

If this team wasn't in desperate need of speed and already inundated with a plethora of power hitting plodders I'd feel compelled to mention Dan Uggla as a possibility.

 

29 years old, slow, bad defensively, not a good contact hitter, strikes out a lot (he'd actually fit in perfectly) but has a career .831 OPS, is a two time 30 HR hitter and has proven to be quite durable. He's one of 17 arbitration eligible players on a team who's payroll didn't even top $22M last year so there's a good chance he'll be traded. But I know, not a good fit for many, many reasons. (the asking price being number 1 or 1a)

[caulfield12]

I just don't think it is in KW's nature to trade for a 2B who is not only going to be expensive to acquire, but is also going into the most expensive period (prime) of his career in contract terms as well...Edgar Renteria makes almost as much sense, guessing along with KW and Ozzie.

 

We have 4 months to wait....well, 3 at least.

Edited October 14, 2008 by caulfield12

[joejoesox]

when does the trade wire start officially? december?

[caulfield12]

when does the trade wire start officially? december?

 

 

traditionally around the time of the Winter Meetings in the first or 2nd week of December...it used to be that tons of trades went down at this event, but it has faded in importance in the last 10-15 years

 

it was a good way to get attention focused back on baseball in the winter months...but, with 24 hour news cycles and the Internet, not so relevant...one of the more interesting parts of it is the Rule V draft these days

 

sometimes, KW doesn't even spend the full amount of time there (he tends to want to operate under the radar, and "big" events tend to bring too much focus and speculation on the deals he's attempting to make behind the scenes...generally, December and January are the best months for player movement and possible trades

[TLAK]

MLB.Com Important Dates

Oct. 22, 2008

World Series begins

 

Nov. 3-6, 2008

General Managers Meetings, Dana Point, Calif.

 

Nov. 20, 2008

Day to file reserve lists for all Minor League levels and Major Leagues

 

Dec. 1, 2008

Last date for former club to offer salary arbitration to ranked free agents in order to be eligible for compensation.

 

Dec. 7, 2008

Last date for player who declared free agency to accept an arbitration offer from former club.

 

Dec. 8-11, 2008

Winter Meetings, Las Vegas

 

Dec. 11, 2008

Rule 5 Draft

 

Dec. 12, 2008

Last date to tender contracts for 2009

 

If I remember right, there is a news blackout during the World Series but no other restrictions. You might recall the Garland/Cabrerra trade was made mid-November, but yeah, most of the action is at the Winter Meetings after the other stuff shakes out.

[caulfield12]

Remember A-Rod trying to interrupt the end of the World Series last year with his ridiculous contract complaints?

 

That didn't make too many in NYC or the Commissioner's Office very happy, to say the least. I guess Darth Boras was elated, at least.

[rangercal]

Why would the Orioles trade Adam Jones? They are very high on him.

[whitesoxbrian]

Why would the Orioles trade Adam Jones? They are very high on him.

That's the thing- there's no way they deal him.

[caulfield12]

That's the thing- there's no way they deal him.

 

Well, I'm sure they won't deal him to us either, but I wanted to put together a complete expanded "universe" of all the players at that position (middle infielders) who are in their mid to late 20's and fit the Carlos Quentin profile. Because Jones has some time at SS, I thought he was interesting name to include...just for conversation's sake. (And just because talking about the same players over and over again is a little boring...and because nearly everyone said the player that KW goes after won't be on most of our radar screens but will be a name out of left field).

 

Definitely, we're more likely to go after Roberts (an iffy proposition at best to fight off the Cubs, who will be doubly determined) and the Orioles are going to try to find a suitor for Mora as well IMO...if there's some kind of megatrade that goes down, we might make Jones the "deal-breaker" if the O's GM can't find any other way to get the talent/prospects he wants back for either Roberts or Mora.

 

I will agree thought that Jones, undoubtedly, is likely to stay put.

Edited October 14, 2008 by caulfield12

[scenario]

One our our posters, Wanne, went to an Arizona Fall League game last week and asked GBeck if we were going to see him in Chicago within the next two years.

 

His answer? "Sooner."

 

Could just be a young guy being cocky.

 

On the other hand, it got me thinking... maybe he knows something we don't.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I really think we give up a lot of our offensive advantage putting Alexei in CF.

 

Out there in CF, he's good to very good offensively (compared to MLB norms), but if we can get his pop from SS and Beckham's from 2B (assuming we can get 20-25 homers and 75-80 RBI's at 3B)...then we're in REALLY good shape.

 

That does allow us to have a speedster/leadoff hitter like Taveras (not him specifically though!) without many homers in CF...or maybe someone like CoCo Crisp, depending on what we have to give up.

 

If the time horizon on Beckham is mid-2010 as many claim, it makes VERY little sense to go out and sign an Orlando Hudson long-term or trade for Chone Figgins, unless you really want to lock Beckham in at 3B...which is where it seems he would be the worst fit offensively (saying that not projecting as a corner infielder type of hitter, but more of a line drive, doubles/gap hitter who will get 18-24 per season due to Comiskey).

 

OTOH, KW is always in a "win now" mode, and Beckham, AT BEST, MIGHT make us more competitive in 2010...so I'm not sure Beckham's development is influencing KW's "in the present" decision-making process as of yet.

Edited October 14, 2008 by caulfield12

[Melissa1334]

so no orlando hudson?

[ThunderBolt]

And what about Mark Ellis?

[caulfield12]

Hudson at $10-12 million over 3 years. No go.

 

Hudson at $8-10 million over 2 years. Maybe.

 

Mark Ellis...probably not, but a remote possibility. Certainly not on KW's Top 5 "most wanted" list.

[YASNY]

I really think we give up a lot of our offensive advantage putting Alexei in CF.

 

Out there in CF, he's good to very good offensively (compared to MLB norms), but if we can get his pop from SS and Beckham's from 2B (assuming we can get 20-25 homers and 75-80 RBI's at 3B)...then we're in REALLY good shape.

 

That does allow us to have a speedster/leadoff hitter like Taveras (not him specifically though!) without many homers in CF...or maybe someone like CoCo Crisp, depending on what we have to give up.

 

If the time horizon on Beckham is mid-2010 as many claim, it makes VERY little sense to go out and sign an Orlando Hudson long-term or trade for Chone Figgins, unless you really want to lock Beckham in at 3B...which is where it seems he would be the worst fit offensively (saying that not projecting as a corner infielder type of hitter, but more of a line drive, doubles/gap hitter who will get 18-24 per season due to Comiskey).

 

OTOH, KW is always in a "win now" mode, and Beckham, AT BEST, MIGHT make us more competitive in 2010...so I'm not sure Beckham's development is influencing KW's "in the present" decision-making process as of yet.

 

I think you might see Beckham at 3B and Getz at 2B in '09.

[caulfield12]

As long as we don't see Beckham, Ellis AND Getz together...I think that would be giving up way too much offense.

 

He's into his 30's now (warning sign #1 on Ellis), he made $5 million last year (too expensive vis a vis just going with Getz and investing the money elsewhere, as noted with previous discussions about the ROI of putting $10-12 million per year into an aging Hudson)...he hit only .233 with a .694 OPS and he's coming off an injury-plagued year. In fact, he seems to have always had problems with injuries, not quite like Rocco Baldelli, but close.

 

He is good at taking walks and can steal you 18-24 bases per year, but I think we can do better than Mark Ellis. At least I HOPE so.

Edited October 14, 2008 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

I'm not going to buy the fact that subbing Ellis for Cabrera is improving our offense somehow...at best, we're treading water.

 

He has played 122 games, 124 games and 117 games in three of the last four years, only once reaching the 150 mark.

 

Cabrera, if nothing else, was very durable and could always be expected to answer the bell. If we want Chris Getz or someone else to get 40+ starts, maybe he's our guy???

 

I just can't see how his durability improves over time, and why KW would invest $10+ million over 2 years in a 31 year-old 2B who's not really a legit speed threat anymore (probably similar to Cabrera, maybe 5-7 less steals).

[2nd_city_saint787]

I think you might see Beckham at 3B and Getz at 2B in '09.

 

 

this is not just directly directed at you yasny but to everyone....really Beckham in 09????

 

[flavum]

this is not just directly directed at you yasny but to everyone....really Beckham in 09????

 

I think Beckham will be on the fast track, but they have to decide what position he's going to play. I could see him being up at some point during the 09 season, but not to start the season. That doesn't seem realistic since they'll build a team that can win in 2009. They certainly won't count on Beckham to start the season in Chicago.

 

My feeling is Beckham will play 2B next year at Birmingham. If Alexei is a great SS, he'll stay there. If not, Beckham will move back to SS. I'm not buying the 3rd base idea.

 

I think Beckham is in the opening day lineup in 2010, and hopefully for the next 15 years.

[R.J.]

I like this thread. Guys I could see KW making a move for...

 

- Brandon Wood: Wood was once a super-hyped prospect but has looked nothing short of overmatched at the major league level. Think Andy Marte, but with a little more range and power. He could be acquired but his minor league number would likely make him expensive. Probably will be given a shot by the Angels before they swap him for a prospect with similar question marks.

 

- Jayson Nix: Well, he'd be cheap. But he's probably useful to the Rockies on their bench somewhere. If you going to look at guys like this you might as well bite the bullet and start Getz, see what you have there.

 

- Jose Lopez: He's available, but doesn't offer much upside. Some people get fooled by his numbers, he's nothing special and he's due to stat getting expensive.

 

- Ronny Cedeno: Cedeno will get a crack at some extended playing time at some point in his career, but I see it happening with a struggling NL team.

 

- Rickie Weeks: Why would the Brewers move him? Because he doesn't play defense and his contact hitting is awful. Why would Kenny pay their asking price? Because he has good speed and considerable upside. There will probably be some talks here. Weeks could move this offseason and his price tag will be dependent upon then umber of teams who make calls.

 

- J.J. Hardy: Similar situation as Weeks (I don't see them moving both), but probably a higher price tag here. Can't see the Sox paying what the Brewers would likely ask for, and it's not like Milwaukee has any real need to move him.

 

- Scott Hairston: I think his defense at 2nd was pretty awful?

 

- Bobby Crosby: Probably available, but who knows what the asking price would be. Doesn't seem to offer any upside any longer. I'd stay away.

 

- Khalil Greene: Definitely available... Would probably hit 25 homers... Good defense... Would also hit about .230 and strike out a staggering amount. I think we could get him if we want him. I don't think we should want him.

 

- Kaz Matsui: Making too much money for what he does. Houston has shown themselves to be stubborn "buyers," don't see why they'd move him now.

 

- Orlando Hudson: We wont win the bidding war for him, and we shouldn't really try.

 

- Mark Ellis: A real possibility if we have them oney to spend. Shouldn't break the bank.

[Fantl916]

I am a huge advocate of dealing for Rickie Weeks. He has been constantly hampered by random nagging injuries (wrist, hammy). I truly believe a change of scenery will do this guy absolute wonders. I think something like a solid prospect and good bullpen arm could get it done (think John Ely and Boone Logan/Wasserman). He is low risk, huge reward. Don't forget this guy was a top 10 prospect only a few years ago, and has 30 home run, 30 steals in his arsenal. You let him get healthy, stick him at 2nd base, and take the pressure off of him by batting him 9th. He essentially then becomes an emmensely talented #9 hitter capable of hitting 30 home runs and playing secondary leadoff, and not killing you with his .230-.250 average. You would still have to search for a leadoff guy, but Weeks could be absolutely huge for this team...

 

I hope KW goes hard after him, and we land him... he'd instantly be my favorite White Sox...

[caulfield12]

If it was announced that Mark Ellis signed today (which obviously is impossible) for $4.5 million for 2009 with a team option for 2010 in 2010 for $5.5 million and a buy-out for something like $500K to $1 million, would most Sox fans be happy?

 

I think the reaction would be pretty "blah" about such a move. It would be a pretty big gamble. I guess it depends on what kind of gambles we're also making/taking at 3B and in CF.

 

IF we had Fields as the starter at 3B with Swisher in CF again, and our only "improvement" was Mark Ellis and Clayton Richard was likewise our 5th starter (with Javy Vazquez as the fourth), then I would probably pick this team for 3rd place, at best, maybe 4th.

 

 

[bigruss]

I am a huge advocate of dealing for Rickie Weeks. He has been constantly hampered by random nagging injuries (wrist, hammy). I truly believe a change of scenery will do this guy absolute wonders. I think something like a solid prospect and good bullpen arm could get it done (think John Ely and Boone Logan/Wasserman). He is low risk, huge reward. Don't forget this guy was a top 10 prospect only a few years ago, and has 30 home run, 30 steals in his arsenal. You let him get healthy, stick him at 2nd base, and take the pressure off of him by batting him 9th. He essentially then becomes an emmensely talented #9 hitter capable of hitting 30 home runs and playing secondary leadoff, and not killing you with his .230-.250 average. You would still have to search for a leadoff guy, but Weeks could be absolutely huge for this team...

 

I hope KW goes hard after him, and we land him... he'd instantly be my favorite White Sox...

Hes also a liability in the field, once again he has talent there but doenst use it properly. I dont think that trade would entice the Brewers....

 

He would be your favorite over TCQ or Danks or any other star on this team right now?

 

Also, I am not racist or anything, I jsut find it interesting that many athletes who are perceived as five tool players are usually minorities, which makes sense because from my experiences in playing sports the most athletic kids are usually nonwhite, but alot of these players get huge attention on their potential, that they have a quick swing, they have a strong arm, they are extremely fast. Seems almost too good to be true, and I think it is, for most of these guys dont have baseball skills, from inexperience or jsut not having it. Yes they can launch a ball in bp, or run a fast times in drills, but when it comes down to it they dont have 'it' to fulfill that potential. Im talking about guys like Adam Jones, Delmon Young, Weeks, etc, I just dont have any faith as a baseball fan that these guys will ever live up to their potential. Yes, they are all VERY young, and have loads of time to get there, I jsut dont think they many of these athletes have the baseball instinct that is required to succeed at this level. Once again, I am not racist, nor trying to be, for there have been white guys with the skillset but lack of baseball instinct also.

 

I guess I am comparing them to guys who have tremendous baseball instinct, but no athleticism, and how they may also succeed at lower levels but once the competition gets harder they cant keep up, except alot of these guys are never placed with the huge potential tag.

 

Sorry to hijack this thread, jsut something that came up in my mind.

[Cubano]

I wrote about this guy a few weeks ago. His name is Juan Carlos Moreno. He was a gold glove SS in Cuba for the Isla de la Juventud Grapefruit Growers. He was a back up for team Cuba in WBC # 1. I do not know how much he has left, but he should be a cheap option for any team al SS or as a back up.

 

He is going to play for the Cibao Giants (Gigantes del Cibao) in the dominican winter league.

 

Juan Carlos Moreno, the first guy from left to right. The guy on the right is a cuban pitcher. I think he is Braves LHP Francisley Bueno, but he may be somebody else.