Obama vs. McCain Debate III

[lostfan]

This is why I haven't bought the last 2 copies of Madden, and why I won't get Sunday Ticket. The NFL isn't so important to me that I'd pay an extra 250 bucks plus whatever they charge for HD.

[kapkomet]

See, I just have bad timing.

 

[southsideirish71]

I dont see what's wrong with Socialism.

 

I have this slight problem with the redistribution of wealth that is being bantered about. Why exactly should any american have to be penalized for success. Who is the government to penalize someone for the hard work, hours away from their family, and risk that they put into their lives to attain success.

[EvilMonkey]

Too many grasshoppers, not enough ants.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I dont see what's wrong with Socialism.

 

 

I hope that was meant to be green

[southsider2k5]

Whats wrong with socialism is govt corruption and the fact that govt control leads to bureaucracy which leads to inefficiency.

 

If you have to get anything done in Chicago you understand what a nightmare it is to have to work with Cook County or the City. You can call them and no one ever responds, you can get transferred to no where, you can fill out form after form and get nothing accomplished. Since there is no real "bottom line" there is no way to judge what costs should be.

 

For example lets look at the Cook County Recorder. Right now it costs about $50 to record a deed (thats 3 pages for the most part). Its not because it costs that much to scan the document and store it, its because part of that money goes to fund other things because some services run by the govt have very little cost. For example you can get all the permits on a building for something ridiculous like 10 cents a page even though thats much more labor intensive and takes longer.

 

Why?

 

Because there is nothing to control what costs are, there is no competition on building permit searches or on recording deeds. You have to go there, so if they say it costs 50 dollars you pay 50, if they say 100 you pay 100, since the govt controls it and there is no competition there is no way to structure the pricing system and eventually the consumer gets hammered.

 

Capitalism generally provides for the lowest prices, the problem is systems where you cant allow a truly free market for one reason or another. In those situations some times the govt has to guide the market but I think it should be like Obama's idea where govt insurance is just an alternative to regular medical insurance (thus in theory should actually increase competition and decrease costs).

 

At least thats my theory on it.

 

(Edit)

 

And I dont watch CNN, if I wanted to know that Eurasia has always been Oceana's enemy I could just write the news myself.

 

You lost me in the very first sentence. I really don't know of many people who feel that our government isn't rife with ineffeciencies and many feel plenty corrupt. Ask someone who has tried to get a passport, social security, had a tax audit, applied for citizenship, etc, how well our government works.

[lostfan]

You lost me in the very first sentence. I really don't know of many people who feel that our government isn't rife with ineffeciencies and many feel plenty corrupt. Ask someone who has tried to get a passport, social security, had a tax audit, applied for citizenship, etc, how well our government works.

You should've finished reading his post because everything what you just said is exactly what he said :

 

For the record I applied for a passport a few weeks ago, it took me maybe like 6 days to get it and my birth certificate came back a couple of days later. I expected it to take weeks.

[lostfan]

I hope that was meant to be green

No, he is an honest to god far left socialist.

[southsider2k5]

You should've finished reading his post because everything what you just said is exactly what he said :

 

For the record I applied for a passport a few weeks ago, it took me maybe like 6 days to get it and my birth certificate came back a couple of days later. I expected it to take weeks.

 

That's kinda what I was getting at. Everything he described was our government, so I am not sure the distinction he was trying draw between that and socialism.

[NorthSideSox72]

That's kinda what I was getting at. Everything he described was our government, so I am not sure the distinction he was trying draw between that and socialism.

This country isn't even in shouting distance from socialism. Even if Obama's most ambitious tax plans come true (which they won't), we'd moved a few inches closer but still be miles away.

 

[lostfan]

This country isn't even in shouting distance from socialism. Even if Obama's most ambitious tax plans come true (which they won't), we'd moved a few inches closer but still be miles away.

We'd still need a centrally planned economy, no? Even with de facto government control of the banking system there's quite a ways to go for that.

[NorthSideSox72]

We'd still need a centrally planned economy, no? Even with de facto government control of the banking system there's quite a ways to go for that.

We are nowhere near it in most key areas. The big problem many conservatives and moderates have about approaching socialism is really with the use of the tax code as a redistribution of wealth. Obama's plan would do that slightly more than is already done.

 

[southsideirish71]

We are nowhere near it in most key areas. The big problem many conservatives and moderates have about approaching socialism is really with the use of the tax code as a redistribution of wealth. Obama's plan would do that slightly more than is already done.

 

Obama says he isn't going to raise taxes on those making less than 250k. You know Bill Clinton made similar promises during his first election as well. Then once elected started to jack taxes up. I figure Obama will pull the same crap. Deny the tax increase except for the very rich, then tax the living crap out of people when he gets in.

[kapkomet]

Obama says he isn't going to raise taxes on those making less than 250k. You know Bill Clinton made similar promises during his first election as well. Then once elected started to jack taxes up. I figure Obama will pull the same crap. Deny the tax increase except for the very rich, then tax the living crap out of people when he gets in.

And, he'll have a super majority to push through whatever the hell he wants.

[EvilMonkey]

I consider myself a conservative more than a Republican . Like many people of that bent, I was uncomfortable with Bush when he was nominated. But Al Gore's increasingly crazy behavior during the 2000 election made me hope Bush won.

Once Bush won, and it became clear that the Florida democrats were trying to steal the election, I became something of a Bush defender. Throughout his first term, I took note of all the really s***ty things that were said about him, saw that a large portion of the left would rather see Bush fail than see America succeed, and was alarmed by the complicity (and often, participatoin) of the MSM and even mainstream Hollywood. It wasn't far into his second term that I fell to Bush Fatigue, due to his inability to make the case for his foreign policy to the American people, and his inability to find the veto pen. He has truly been a crappy steward of the Republican brand, and because of this, the Conservative and libertarian causes are suffering.

I'm no fan of McCain , but as I dislike Obama (and love Palin), I'll be pulling the lever for McCain in November.

This is surely petty of me, but if Obama wins, I plan on giving him as much of a chance as the Democrats gave George Bush. Which isn't much. I will gleefully forward every paranoid anti-Obama rumor that I see, along with YouTube footage of his verbal missteps. I will laugh and email heinous anti-Obama photoshop jobs, and maybe even learn photoshop myself to create some. I'll buy anti-Obama books, and maybe even a "Not My President" t-shirt. I'm sure that the mainstream bookstores won't carry them, but I'll be on the lookout for anti-Obama calendars and stuff like that. I will not wish America harm, and if the country is hurt (economically, militarily, or diplomatically) I will truly mourn. But i will also take some solace that it occurred under Obama's watch, and will find every reason to blame him personally and fan the flames.

Obama's thuggish behavior thus far in this election cycle, thru the use of his surrogates and fans - squashing free speech, declaring any criticism of his policies to be "racist" (a word that happily carries little weight with sensible people these days), associating with the likes of Ayers, Wright, and ACORN - suggests that I won't have to scrape for reasons to really, really dislike Obama and his administration. And even if he wins, his campaign's "get out the vote fraud" activities are enough to provide people like me with a large degree of "plausible deniability" as to whether he is actually legitimately the president.

I've seen a President that I am generally-inclined to like get crapped on for eight years, and I've seen McCain and Palin (honorable people both, despite policy differences I may have with them) get crapped on through this election season. If the Democrats think that a President Obama is going to get some sort of honeymoon from the folks who didn't vote for him, fat f***ing chance.

 

Democrats cannot and should not expect Obama to receive any sort of honeymoon from McCain voters this cycle based on their behavior, and as I've often heard said, don't reward behavior that you don't want to encourage." Yes, the Angry Left schtick seems to have worked for the Dems, which suggests that if the GOP finds itself out of power it will emulate it. If there is an Obama win, no b****ing allowed for the next 4 years when every tactic the left used against Bush and Republicans is turned full force against them.

[Reddy]

I consider myself a conservative more than a Republican . Like many people of that bent, I was uncomfortable with Bush when he was nominated. But Al Gore's increasingly crazy behavior during the 2000 election made me hope Bush won.

Once Bush won, and it became clear that the Florida democrats were trying to steal the election, I became something of a Bush defender. Throughout his first term, I took note of all the really s***ty things that were said about him, saw that a large portion of the left would rather see Bush fail than see America succeed, and was alarmed by the complicity (and often, participatoin) of the MSM and even mainstream Hollywood. It wasn't far into his second term that I fell to Bush Fatigue, due to his inability to make the case for his foreign policy to the American people, and his inability to find the veto pen. He has truly been a crappy steward of the Republican brand, and because of this, the Conservative and libertarian causes are suffering.

I'm no fan of McCain , but as I dislike Obama (and love Palin), I'll be pulling the lever for McCain in November.

This is surely petty of me, but if Obama wins, I plan on giving him as much of a chance as the Democrats gave George Bush. Which isn't much. I will gleefully forward every paranoid anti-Obama rumor that I see, along with YouTube footage of his verbal missteps. I will laugh and email heinous anti-Obama photoshop jobs, and maybe even learn photoshop myself to create some. I'll buy anti-Obama books, and maybe even a "Not My President" t-shirt. I'm sure that the mainstream bookstores won't carry them, but I'll be on the lookout for anti-Obama calendars and stuff like that. I will not wish America harm, and if the country is hurt (economically, militarily, or diplomatically) I will truly mourn. But i will also take some solace that it occurred under Obama's watch, and will find every reason to blame him personally and fan the flames.

Obama's thuggish behavior thus far in this election cycle, thru the use of his surrogates and fans - squashing free speech, declaring any criticism of his policies to be "racist" (a word that happily carries little weight with sensible people these days), associating with the likes of Ayers, Wright, and ACORN - suggests that I won't have to scrape for reasons to really, really dislike Obama and his administration. And even if he wins, his campaign's "get out the vote fraud" activities are enough to provide people like me with a large degree of "plausible deniability" as to whether he is actually legitimately the president.

I've seen a President that I am generally-inclined to like get crapped on for eight years, and I've seen McCain and Palin (honorable people both, despite policy differences I may have with them) get crapped on through this election season. If the Democrats think that a President Obama is going to get some sort of honeymoon from the folks who didn't vote for him, fat f***ing chance.

 

Democrats cannot and should not expect Obama to receive any sort of honeymoon from McCain voters this cycle based on their behavior, and as I've often heard said, don't reward behavior that you don't want to encourage." Yes, the Angry Left schtick seems to have worked for the Dems, which suggests that if the GOP finds itself out of power it will emulate it. If there is an Obama win, no b****ing allowed for the next 4 years when every tactic the left used against Bush and Republicans is turned full force against them.

you lost credibility when you said you loved Sarah Palin. Then again when you called her honorable.

 

[EvilMonkey]

you lost credibility when you said you loved Sarah Palin. Then again when you called her honorable.

Bite my ass.

[Reddy]

Bite my ass.

appropriate.

[lostfan]

If the Democrats horribly mismanage the government and act as arrogant and condescending as the Republicans did when they had complete control of everything you may be on to something... because, as of right now, the Dem takeover in 2006 and the inevitable reinforcing of that majority in '08 is direct blowback from all that. If the Dems are smart (which they aren't), they will learn from those mistakes (they won't) so they don't have to pay the price at the polls in a few years (they probably will).

[NorthSideSox72]

Democrats cannot and should not expect Obama to receive any sort of honeymoon from McCain voters this cycle based on their behavior, and as I've often heard said, don't reward behavior that you don't want to encourage." Yes, the Angry Left schtick seems to have worked for the Dems, which suggests that if the GOP finds itself out of power it will emulate it. If there is an Obama win, no b****ing allowed for the next 4 years when every tactic the left used against Bush and Republicans is turned full force against them.

That philosophy is exactly why we have such amplified partisanship in Congress and government today, why nothing good is getting done, why no compromise occurs unless its a pork barrel festival, and why we see so much hate at these campaign rallies. And you want to further propagate that garbage?

 

That accomplishes nothing and only makes things worse. its too bad that you and so many others will do just that.

 

And for the record, I voted for Bush in 2000, wanted him to do well, but ended up criticizing him a lot as time went on. I did that because... HE'S BEEN A LOUSY f***ING PRESIDENT. Not because I gave him no chance, or because I wanted him to fail, both of which are absurd ideas.

 

[lostfan]

Bite my ass.

A little unnecessary isn't it?

[StrangeSox]

Stay classy, Soxtalk.

[EvilMonkey]

If the Democrats horribly mismanage the government and act as arrogant and condescending as the Republicans did when they had complete control of everything you may be on to something... because, as of right now, the Dem takeover in 2006 and the inevitable reinforcing of that majority in '08 is direct blowback from all that. If the Dems are smart (which they aren't), they will learn from those mistakes (they won't) so they don't have to pay the price at the polls in a few years (they probably will).

Their current lack of success in the Dem controlled congress offers little, if any, hope. I will not root for their failure, but I will on a small level, revel in it, and throw back at them everything they did for the last 8 years.

[Reddy]

Their current lack of success in the Dem controlled congress offers little, if any, hope. I will not root for their failure, but I will on a small level, revel in it, and throw back at them everything they did for the last 8 years.

true, they haven't done a great job, but they've got a president w/ veto power looming over them. plus, yes, they're democratically controlled, but that still means they need to get GOP votes to pass anything. we'll see what happens with a Dem pres/congress next year.

[EvilMonkey]

A little unnecessary isn't it?

To merely dismiss my post as irrelevant because he disagrees with my Palin line is also unnecessary. Yes.

Edited October 17, 2008 by Alpha Dog