State of our starting pitchers

[greg775]

What makes you think Sabathia will remain healthy for the 6 or 7 years he'll end up getting?

 

I don't. I'm just saying many teams don't care about that. They just sign the guy.

 

Garland is a FA??? What the frick. SIGN HIM. We need him back. He's the inning eater. I want Jon.

[witesoxfan]

I don't. I'm just saying many teams don't care about that. They just sign the guy.

 

Garland is a FA??? What the frick. SIGN HIM. We need him back. He's the inning eater. I want Jon.

 

Garland was one of the worst starting pitchers in the AL last year and he has a ton of mileage on his arm. He should not be brought back.

[greg775]

We ain't gonna make the playoffs without upgrading the starting rotation as well as the pen. I want Jon. If he's done then baseball teams are ridiculous giving any pitcher more than a 2 year deal. These guys are breaking down at 30??

Edited October 21, 2008 by greg775

[witesoxfan]

We ain't gonna make the playoffs without upgrading the starting rotation as well as the pen. I want Jon.

 

In all honesty, Jack Egbert or Clayton Richard might be upgrades over Jon Garland, and they won't require a multi-year deal.

[Kalapse]

Garland was one of the worst starting pitchers in the AL last year and he has a ton of mileage on his arm. He should not be brought back.

I just love this stat. Last year 48 major league pitchers threw at least 190 innings, of them, Jon Garland was the worst (according to VORP). 67 pitchers threw at least 175 innings, Garland was the 7th worst out of the group, the 6 pitchers behind him: Zach Duke, Daniel Cabrera, Tim Redding, Jeff Suppan, Barry Zito and Brian Bannister.

 

That being said, if he were somehow interested I'd still give Garland a Jason Marquis type deal (assuming he's healthy, if that shoulder is f***ed I'm not interested); 3 years, $21M-$24M with incentives for All Star appearances, Cy Young voting and ~210 IP that could raise the deal to say $30M.

[witesoxfan]

I just love this stat. Last year 48 major league pitchers threw at least 190 innings, of them, Jon Garland was the worst (according to VORP). 67 pitchers threw at least 175 innings, Garland was the 7th worst out of the group, the 6 pitchers behind him: Zach Duke, Daniel Cabrera, Tim Redding, Jeff Suppan, Barry Zito and Brian Bannister.

 

That being said, if he were somehow interested I'd still give Garland a Jason Marquis type deal (assuming he's healthy, if that shoulder is f***ed I'm not interested); 3 years, $21M-$24M with incentives for All Star appearances, Cy Young voting and ~210 IP that could raise the deal to say $30M.

 

Would you rather give Garland $7.5 mill a year over 3 years or try your luck with a combination of Garcia, Richard, Egbert, Poreda, YourMother, etc, while paying less than $5 mill and being locked into no long-term committment?

[Kalapse]

Would you rather give Garland $7.5 mill a year over 3 years or try your luck with a combination of Garcia, Richard, Egbert, Poreda, YourMother, etc, while paying less than $5 mill and being locked into no long-term committment?

I'd probably take Garland. If his shoulder is true and he can give me 3 years with a 105 ERA+ and 200+ innings then he's worth $8M dollars. If Poreda wasn't ready in September then he's not going to be ready in March, I don't think the Sox have much interest in Garcia (they didn't even go to his tryout last year and made no attempt to sign him) and even if they do, I don't (can't stand watching that man pitch), I want no part of Richard in the rotation he should be the #1 lefty specialist out of the pen next year and I don't think Egbert will be a member of the organization come April. As for my mother she has a nasty slider but her fastball tops out at 38 MPH and I'm not sure she could even get the ball to the plate on a fly so I'm gonna have to rule her out as well.

[witesoxfan]

I'd probably take Garland. If his shoulder is true and he can give me 3 years with a 105 ERA+ and 200+ innings then he's worth $8M dollars. If Poreda wasn't ready in September then he's not going to be ready in March, I don't think the Sox have much interest in Garcia (they didn't even go to his tryout last year and made no attempt to sign him) and even if they do, I don't (can't stand watching that man pitch), I want no part of Richard in the rotation he should be the #1 lefty specialist out of the pen next year and I don't think Egbert will be a member of the organization come April. As for my mother she has a nasty slider but her fastball tops out at 38 MPH and I'm not sure she could even get the ball to the plate on a fly so I'm gonna have to rule her out as well.

 

Fair enough. You know, if Jericho Scott and your mother combined their abilities, he'd be too good for a 12 year old league.

 

Personally, even if Garland came that cheaply - I don't think he will just because of the demand of starting pitchers and he's not coming off a 6+ ERA but rather just slightly under 5 - I don't think the Sox would be interested. Williams nearly traded him once when he was young, supposedly nearly traded him to Houston, and then did finally trade him to Anaheim. Perhaps that was just KW feeling the waters, especially the time to Houston, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of organizational love for Garland.

 

Of course, if Garland did come that cheaply, and he checked out physically, and the Sox signed him, I really have to believe Javy would be on his way out, regardless of who is better.

[greg775]

I can't imagine the Sox thinking Jose will ever pitch again. He's old. He's old. He's old.

And he's not very good.

[beck72]

Garland should get a decent deal from a NL team [probably along the lines of what Marquis got, though I could see a 3, 4 yr deal, at $8, 9 mill per yr]. The sox should stay far away from that.

 

[GreatScott82]

Garland should get a decent deal from a NL team [probably along the lines of what Marquis got, though I could see a 3, 4 yr deal, at $8, 9 mill per yr]. The sox should stay far away from that.

I could see Garland going to the Dodgers. Especially if Lowe departs. He'll likely get 8-10 million/season which is good based on his below mediocre season. As far as Richard being in the 5th spot, its not a bad situation, but based on what im reading, KW might be aggressive toward a SP this offseason. Who it might be? I have no clue, but if we can solidify our rotation 1-5 than we can make another World Series run. The birth of Danks and Floyd into All-star caliber pitchers really has saved KW a lot of money. Instead of aqcuirering or signing 2 or 3 mediocre starting pitchers, he can now go after 1 top of the rotation guy. I wonder if KW has already made a few phone calls to SD in regarding Peavy? Its far fetched, but you never know. KW and Ozzie are good salesmen.

Edited October 22, 2008 by GreatScott82

[greg775]

Garland should get a decent deal from a NL team [probably along the lines of what Marquis got, though I could see a 3, 4 yr deal, at $8, 9 mill per yr]. The sox should stay far away from that.

 

It amazes me that we always list these type of contracts for other teams ... then say quickly the Sox would never want the guy. Somebody pointed out a concern Garland was one of the worst pitchers in the league last year. Yet he's gonna get four years at 8 mill a year and we won't offer him anything? Why are these players good enough for other teams and not the Sox? (see posts on CC being fat and arm weary).

[Chisoxfn]

Would you rather give Garland $7.5 mill a year over 3 years or try your luck with a combination of Garcia, Richard, Egbert, Poreda, YourMother, etc, while paying less than $5 mill and being locked into no long-term committment?

I'd take Garland.

[YASNY]

It amazes me that we always list these type of contracts for other teams ... then say quickly the Sox would never want the guy. Somebody pointed out a concern Garland was one of the worst pitchers in the league last year. Yet he's gonna get four years at 8 mill a year and we won't offer him anything? Why are these players good enough for other teams and not the Sox? (see posts on CC being fat and arm weary).

 

There is probably another team that would take that type of risk for Garland. There are probably 20 or so that would choose to pass. I hope the Sox are in that group.

[southsider2k5]

It amazes me that we always list these type of contracts for other teams ... then say quickly the Sox would never want the guy. Somebody pointed out a concern Garland was one of the worst pitchers in the league last year. Yet he's gonna get four years at 8 mill a year and we won't offer him anything? Why are these players good enough for other teams and not the Sox? (see posts on CC being fat and arm weary).

 

You are comparing apples and oranges. When you are talking about spending 6-7-8 years on a pitcher and committing something like 150ish million dollars, your standards tend to be higher than we you are talking about a 3rd or 4th start at about 30ish million and half the years. Besides just because he doesn't fit the Sox profile doesn't mean he isn't perfect for another team looking for what Garland offers. You also have to factor in how the Sox have historically done business, and signing free agent pitchers to big deals isn't something the Sox have EVER done.

[Balta1701]

It amazes me that we always list these type of contracts for other teams ... then say quickly the Sox would never want the guy. Somebody pointed out a concern Garland was one of the worst pitchers in the league last year. Yet he's gonna get four years at 8 mill a year and we won't offer him anything? Why are these players good enough for other teams and not the Sox? (see posts on CC being fat and arm weary).

The issue with that is...most of those deals where you sign a guy to a moderately large contract in the hopes that he'll improve with you or that he'll be that elusive last piece tend to wind up being albatrosses that you want to trade within a year or two. I think guys like Carlos Silva, Gil Meche, etc., come to mind as examples. Unless you have an infinite salary pool, they wind up hurting you in the long run.

[Lemon_44]

I'd like to see Burnett signed through free agency, trade Javy to somebody, and then make a deal for Matt Cain. SF needs alot of help and Cain can get them some good pieces of the puzzle. That would give us a rotation of Burnett, MB, JD,Cain, and Floyd. That would be as good as anyone in the league.

[GreatScott82]

I'd like to see Burnett signed through free agency, trade Javy to somebody, and then make a deal for Matt Cain. SF needs alot of help and Cain can get them some good pieces of the puzzle. That would give us a rotation of Burnett, MB, JD,Cain, and Floyd. That would be as good as anyone in the league.

Apparently the Giants are listening to offers for Cain this offseason. They are in search for some sluggers for the outfield. Our 3 best trading chips this winter will be Dye, Vazquez and Konerko in that order. A Dye for Cain trade maybe a possibility. If you can sell high on a player who has probably peeked for his career you have to pull the trigger. I know there was mention that the Twins are talking about offering Delmon Young for Cain. If i were the Giants that would probably be a little more attractive due to Young's age of 23. But KW has been known to sweetn up the pot a bit.

[bigruss]

Apparently the Giants are listening to offers for Cain this offseason. They are in search for some sluggers for the outfield. Our 3 best trading chips this winter will be Dye, Vazquez and Konerko in that order. A Dye for Cain trade maybe a possibility. If you can sell high on a player who has probably peeked for his career you have to pull the trigger. I know there was mention that the Twins are talking about offering Delmon Young for Cain. If i were the Giants that would probably be a little more attractive due to Young's age of 23. But KW has been known to sweetn up the pot a bit.

Sabean aint that stupid, you would have to throw in a bunch of young prospects, even then I think any team can beat our offer for what they need (which is younger players who are cheaper, unless Sabean really believes his team can compete after losing Cain).

[GreatScott82]

Sabean aint that stupid, you would have to throw in a bunch of young prospects, even then I think any team can beat our offer for what they need (which is younger players who are cheaper, unless Sabean really believes his team can compete after losing Cain).

Im not so sure, that Zito contract was pretty stupid if you ask me. I was just throwing Dye's name out there.

[DBAHO]

That's thinking outside the box. I don't know how Week would be in CF. But I could see something like getting a bat for Javy if the sox sign a Freddy Garcia, or get a 5th Starter type via trade elsewhere.

Here are Weeks' numbers over the past 3 seasons FWIW;

 

06 - .279/.363/.404

07 - .235/.374/.433

08 - .234/.342/.398

 

I think if he was available, the Sox should definitely have a look at him at least. I wouldn't play him at 2B though.

[ThunderBolt]

Sabean aint that stupid, you would have to throw in a bunch of young prospects, even then I think any team can beat our offer for what they need (which is younger players who are cheaper, unless Sabean really believes his team can compete after losing Cain).

The man traded Liriano, Bonser and Nathan for AJ, signed Zito, made a habit out of signing over the hill veterans, and drastically undervalues Tim Lincecum. I don't think we can put to many positive spins on his intelligence.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Thunderbolt

[beck72]

It amazes me that we always list these type of contracts for other teams ... then say quickly the Sox would never want the guy. Somebody pointed out a concern Garland was one of the worst pitchers in the league last year. Yet he's gonna get four years at 8 mill a year and we won't offer him anything? Why are these players good enough for other teams and not the Sox? (see posts on CC being fat and arm weary).

Kenny Williams isn't going to spend outrageous money [and length in years] on free agents, particularly starting pitching with the higher risk of injury. That's not his MO. He wants players of good value, even if it means trading players for it. Right now, there are a lot of teams stuck with bloated contracts for both pitchers and position players.

 

It's hard to argue with his style, esp for pitching. Getting Freddy Garcia, Vazquez, Contreras, Danks and Floyd were all solid deals.

[beck72]

Here are Weeks' numbers over the past 3 seasons FWIW;

 

06 - .279/.363/.404

07 - .235/.374/.433

08 - .234/.342/.398

 

I think if he was available, the Sox should definitely have a look at him at least. I wouldn't play him at 2B though.

Weeks would have to be able to play CF. I do like his batting eye. Yet I still would like someone who could play more than one OF spot, esp, if Dye is traded.

[witesoxfan]

Here are Weeks' numbers over the past 3 seasons FWIW;

 

06 - .279/.363/.404

07 - .235/.374/.433

08 - .234/.342/.398

 

I think if he was available, the Sox should definitely have a look at him at least. I wouldn't play him at 2B though.

 

I don't trade Vazquez for him though. I'd trade Vazquez for Hardy and that's about it from Milwaukee.

 

The man traded Liriano, Bonser and Nathan for AJ, signed Zito, made a habit out of signing over the hill veterans, and drastically undervalues Tim Lincecum. I don't think we can put to many positive spins on his intelligence.

 

I would like to know how you know he undervalues Lincecum...because I imagine if he did that, Lincecum would be in a different uniform right now.

 

In other words, I highly doubt he undervalues Lincecum.