Barack Obama 2001 interview...

[DukeNukeEm]

So on a different track, what is their obligation to the other half of the country, for all of that great stuff we are giving them?

OK so let's cut off the lower class. Charge them for everything and basically run them into financial extinction, it doesn't really end up changing anything. You know as well as I that there will always be a lower, middle and upper class in a Capitalist or Socialist society; so if you you make the poor even poorer somebody is going to have to get knocked down a peg to take their spot. This has a bit of a domino effect on everyone because as wealth polarizes more you lose more wealth in the middle class. What do you think happens when 75% of the country is too poor to afford the pay-as-you-go government schooling? You get an unskilled, uneducated and generally bad workforce.

 

At the very least the government's role in all this is to keep the classes from losing ground all at once, if you take away their capacity to do that we'll end up with what amounts to a Feudal society.

 

[southsider2k5]

OK so let's cut off the lower class. Charge them for everything and basically run them into financial extinction, it doesn't really end up changing anything. You know as well as I that there will always be a lower, middle and upper class in a Capitalist or Socialist society; so if you you make the poor even poorer somebody is going to have to get knocked down a peg to take their spot. This has a bit of a domino effect on everyone because as wealth polarizes more you lose more wealth in the middle class. What do you think happens when 75% of the country is too poor to afford the pay-as-you-go government schooling? You get an unskilled, uneducated and generally bad workforce.

 

At the very least the government's role in all this is to keep the classes from losing ground all at once, if you take away their capacity to do that we'll end up with what amounts to a Feudal society.

 

Sounds like pre-capitalistic China to me.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm really sick of people calling higher taxes on the wealthy "punishing success", it drives me wild. It's not like the more money you earn the less money you take home, if you're banking $600,000 a year you're still going to be pretty well off in both Obama and McCain's tax plans.

 

 

Except that the issue really isn't about whether it's fair to tax people who are well off more than others - obviously that's the case now and it's not going to change. The problem is, with an economy like ours right now, does it makes sense to take the money that's going to grow the economy (the rich's riches) and put it into ADDITIONAL government services, which won't help but a small minority of people? Average joe gets 1500 bucks in tax savings, which he'll prolly use to pay down bills. Above Average Tom gets hit with an extra 25k-30k tax increase, money that he might have used to invest in other companies or to start his own business. That's not a recipe for creating jobs and getting us out of the rut that we're in.

 

 

[EvilMonkey]

What he may have been saying is what do the poor owe to the people who are actually paying thier taxes, funding their schools, etc.? Don't they owe society something? What is their obligation for being on the receiving end of this redistribution?

[BigSqwert]

Except that the issue really isn't about whether it's fair to tax people who are well off more than others - obviously that's the case now and it's not going to change. The problem is, with an economy like ours right now, does it makes sense to take the money that's going to grow the economy (the rich's riches) and put it into ADDITIONAL government services, which won't help but a small minority of people? Average joe gets 1500 bucks in tax savings, which he'll prolly use to pay down bills. Above Average Tom gets hit with an extra 25k-30k tax increase, money that he might have used to invest in other companies or to start his own business. That's not a recipe for creating jobs and getting us out of the rut that we're in.

 

Tell that to the families of the people who died on that bridge in Minnesota.

[lostfan]

I have nothing constructive to contribute to this Groundhog Day thread.

[southsider2k5]

What he may have been saying is what do the poor owe to the people who are actually paying thier taxes, funding their schools, etc.? Don't they owe society something? What is their obligation for being on the receiving end of this redistribution?

 

Pretty much. But ranting an answer that had nothing to do with the question was pretty entertaining.

[EvilMonkey]

Tell that to the families of the people who died on that bridge in Minnesota.

The bridge collapsed to due a design error and the extra weight from the construction equipment that was on it, not from a lack of funding. Go ahead, just keep repeating that lie.

[BigSqwert]

I must be the only one on this site that makes less than $250K. It's amazing how much outrage there is here.

[southsider2k5]

I must be the only one on this site that makes less than $250K. It's amazing how much outrage there is here.

 

Give it a break. You don't have to be in a group to understand the value of that group to society. Its like saying you have to be black to care about minority rights, or homosexual to care about gay marriage.

[BigSqwert]

Give it a break. You don't have to be in a group to understand the value of that group to society. Its like saying you have to be black to care about minority rights, or homosexual to care about gay marriage.

 

Well luckily my thought process is reflected in the majority of Americans right now. To be fighting in 2 wars and to have Bush give the wealthy a tax cut is ridiculous. And for McCain to want to extend that is more insane.

[DukeNukeEm]

Pretty much. But ranting an answer that had nothing to do with the question was pretty entertaining.

OK so tell me where you were going with that question? My guess was it would be the same rambling conservative diatribe against the lower class and how spoiled they are on food stamps.

 

To answer your original question: in every society somebody has to clean the toilets.

[Rex Kickass]

The bridge collapsed to due a design error and the extra weight from the construction equipment that was on it, not from a lack of funding. Go ahead, just keep repeating that lie.

 

Actually the reality is that the jury is still out on how that bridge collapsed. It may very well have been a design flaw.

 

However, the bridge was considered to be structurally deficient in 2005 and 2006.

Internal state documents in 2007 discussed the possibility of condemning the bridge.

Any attempts to retrofit the bridge would have resulted in further weakening of the bridge so a replacement was deemed necessary.

It would have been left basically alone except for standard work until a replacement was built in 2020 under the plan.

[southsider2k5]

OK so tell me where you were going with that question? My guess was it would be the same rambling conservative diatribe against the lower class and how spoiled they are on food stamps.

 

To answer your original question: in every society somebody has to clean the toilets.

 

You know what they say about assumptions...

 

If the rich have a social obligation to provide all of these different social, economic, and fiscal things to the poor, what is the poors social obligation to the rich? Is it just work? If so why is the rich's work, not enough of a social contribution, considering their work is what creates the very jobs that the poor occupy. Without them, they would have nothing.

[Texsox]

So on a different track, what is their obligation to the other half of the country, for all of that great stuff we are giving them?

 

Same obligation I believe every citizen has. Respect the laws, conserve our resources, give back to your community with either your time, talents, or treasure, serve in the military if drafted, serve on a jury if called, vote, etc.

[southsider2k5]

Well luckily my thought process is reflected in the majority of Americans right now. To be fighting in 2 wars and to have Bush give the wealthy a tax cut is ridiculous. And for McCain to want to extend that is more insane.

 

Yet Obama cutting the taxes for 95% of the country is smart? Flattening out the tax code so more people are more dependant on less people is supposed to somehow smooth things out? The less people that pay taxes, the more recession prone the country becomes. If you want a great example of that, look no further than Chicago. Their budget has a huge hole in, and they have some of the highest taxes and fees in the entire country. They have also increased spending at a ridiculous rate, and what has it gotten them? Looking to raise taxes and fees even more.

[southsider2k5]

Same obligation I believe every citizen has. Respect the laws, conserve our resources, give back to your community with either your time, talents, or treasure, serve in the military if drafted, serve on a jury if called, vote, etc.

 

So why don't the rich have the same set of obligations? What makes them a subclass below everyone else?

[BigSqwert]

Yet Obama cutting the taxes for 95% of the country is smart? Flattening out the tax code so more people are more dependant on less people is supposed to somehow smooth things out? The less people that pay taxes, the more recession prone the country becomes. If you want a great example of that, look no further than Chicago. Their budget has a huge hole in, and they have some of the highest taxes and fees in the entire country. They have also increased spending at a ridiculous rate, and what has it gotten them? Looking to raise taxes and fees even more.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Rex Kickass]

Let's be fair about expectations. Given the enormous expenditures that this country will be facing over the next 24-36 months because of a global recession, I would be very surprised to see either candidate actually follow through with any tax cuts, but rather look to see tax hikes - because the government won't be able to do what they perceive it needs to do without it.

[Texsox]

Yet Obama cutting the taxes for 95% of the country is smart? Flattening out the tax code so more people are more dependant on less people is supposed to somehow smooth things out? The less people that pay taxes, the more recession prone the country becomes. If you want a great example of that, look no further than Chicago. Their budget has a huge hole in, and they have some of the highest taxes and fees in the entire country. They have also increased spending at a ridiculous rate, and what has it gotten them? Looking to raise taxes and fees even more.

 

Is there a difference in cutting taxes and sending everyone a $300 check?

 

The issue as I see it is we keep talking about cutting taxes without talking about reducing spending. The GOP believes they can keep spending and send out $300 checks and cutting taxes. The Dems have given up on tax and spend, instead they are in line with the GOP in don't tax and still spend.

 

Cut taxes and send checks when we have a surplus, until then stop spending more than we send.

[southsider2k5]

Let's be fair about expectations. Given the enormous expenditures that this country will be facing over the next 24-36 months because of a global recession, I would be very surprised to see either candidate actually follow through with any tax cuts, but rather look to see tax hikes - because the government won't be able to do what they perceive it needs to do without it.

 

I fully expect it, and it would be nice if either of them could be honest about it before election day. I'd also like to see them be honest that the vast majority of spending programs they are proposing will never happen either.

[Texsox]

I fully expect it, and it would be nice if either of them could be honest about it before election day. I'd also like to see them be honest that the vast majority of spending programs they are proposing will never happen either.

 

If you consider them goals, it is a great indication of what path they want to lead this country on. It may take more time than they will have in office, but I want to see their vision of America. That, was a key factor in my support of McCain.

[southsider2k5]

Is there a difference in cutting taxes and sending everyone a $300 check?

 

The issue as I see it is we keep talking about cutting taxes without talking about reducing spending. The GOP believes they can keep spending and send out $300 checks and cutting taxes. The Dems have given up on tax and spend, instead they are in line with the GOP in don't tax and still spend.

 

Cut taxes and send checks when we have a surplus, until then stop spending more than we send.

 

That's great in theory, but terrible in reality. That was the type of policies that got us into the great depression and the scares and panics of the past. If we are going to have a government involved in day to day fiscal policy, their role is to spend when no one else will spend. They should not spend when things are going well. That is when they should be cutting spending down to a balanced budget. Its counterintuitive, but in application, it is the one way that cuts recessions short and prevents bubbles.

[Texsox]

That's great in theory, but terrible in reality. That was the type of policies that got us into the great depression and the scares and panics of the past. If we are going to have a government involved in day to day fiscal policy, their role is to spend when no one else will spend. They should not spend when things are going well. That is when they should be cutting spending down to a balanced budget. Its counterintuitive, but in application, it is the one way that cuts recessions short and prevents bubbles.

 

So borrow money from China and give it to us? Does it matter what they spend it on? Because it would seem when times are bad, spending on social programs would benefit the people hardest hit.

 

And why does it have to be debt?

[NorthSideSox72]

This is one ugly thread.

 

Good questions (how progressive is too progressive on tax structure) have been asked, and the answers have ranged to amazing extremes on both ends. Its just like that goofball interview with Biden than everyone is talking about... Karl Marx? End of American power? Really? Is hyperbole all we have left?

 

By the way, has anyone seen that TV person's response to the hubub yet? She says she is shocked that people are upset by her being "aggresive" and "asking tough questions instead of "softball" ones. LOL. She has completed missed what went on there.

 

 

Softball question: Does it make you feel good to be helping all those poor people with your new tax plan?

 

Hardball question: Is it such a good idea to be raising taxes on the economy's biggest engines (the rich and large corporations) in a time of recession?

 

Wild pitch into the dugout question: Are you actually Karl Marx?