fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 05:45 PM) Wha??? Alexei played plus D at 2B this year, and SS is (as I recall) his native position. What makes you think he'd be worse at SS than two sub-standard defensive players at their positions? His defense was brutal this season according to defensive statistics, and I thought he lacked concentration an awful lot during the 2nd half of the season. Ramirez is not efficient at diving for grounders, as he seems like he should have better range than he actually does. Ramirez's best asset at 2nd was his ability to turn the double play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 12:39 PM) But...but...it would give us more speed! The scary part is that Ramirez might be worse defensively at SS than Fields is at 3rd and Weeks is at 2nd. yep, i'm not entirely sure why so many people thought Ramirez was so good at 2b, he really wasn't...its unlikely a move to SS would be the best thing....if we trade one of our boppers id actually ideally like to see ramirez in CF, but i dont think thats gonna happen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 12:45 PM) KW will overpay for speed, which is why I'm scared of who we'll trade for Figgins (PK for Chone would be such a bad trade). Yes, but Weeks is a throw in if there is a trade no matter how much speed he has. Javy may be hated on here, but the guy for some reason has alot of value around the league. Hardy would be a nice SS or 3B pick up for us, maybe we throw in someone else to get weeks thrown in, but Weeks for javy is massive rapeage, and Im not sure how anyone could really WANT Weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 11:42 AM) I hope you guys arent saying weeks for javy. Thats an awful return. JJ Hardy is probably the key player we could get back for Javy from the Brewers. That I would do IN A SECOND! I'm kind of "meh" about Weeks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 If we're moving Ramirez to SS, then Hardy isn't an option. Putting him at 3rd base significantly lowers his value, and after watching a ton of Brewers games in the last 2 years, we'd be annoyed with him. He's incredibly streaky, as the last two years he was basically worthless for a half of the season. He has no speed at all either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 11:47 AM) His defense was brutal this season according to defensive statistics, and I thought he lacked concentration an awful lot during the 2nd half of the season. Ramirez is not efficient at diving for grounders, as he seems like he should have better range than he actually does. Ramirez's best asset at 2nd was his ability to turn the double play. His best assets are turning 2, tough turn and throw, and his arm in general. Yes, as I mentioned as well, he does make stupid mistakes. Those should fade over time. Stats wise, he wasn't "brutal" anyway. His FPct (.981) was 12th in baseball for 2B, RF (4.99) is 11th, ZR (.817) is 8th. But stats aren't a great measure for defense anyway, as evidenced in his case by his higher ranking in ZR than RF. I'd put Ramirez as an upper half defensive 2B. And as I said, that's at a position he was still learning, as he's a native SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Anybody know much about Rangers prospect Elvis Andrus and if they're high enough on him they might be inclined to move Michael Young for Javy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (Wanne @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 05:55 PM) Anybody know much about Rangers prospect Elvis Andrus and if they're high enough on him they might be inclined to move Michael Young for Javy? Paging Santo=dorf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 05:53 PM) His best assets are turning 2, tough turn and throw, and his arm in general. Yes, as I mentioned as well, he does make stupid mistakes. Those should fade over time. Stats wise, he wasn't "brutal" anyway. His FPct (.981) was 12th in baseball for 2B, RF (4.99) is 11th, ZR (.817) is 8th. But stats aren't a great measure for defense anyway, as evidenced in his case by his higher ranking in ZR than RF. I'd put Ramirez as an upper half defensive 2B. And as I said, that's at a position he was still learning, as he's a native SS. First half of the season I would agree with you, as I thought he was GG caliber. I thought he was terrible defensively in the second half of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 12:51 PM) If we're moving Ramirez to SS, then Hardy isn't an option. Putting him at 3rd base significantly lowers his value, and after watching a ton of Brewers games in the last 2 years, we'd be annoyed with him. He's incredibly streaky, as the last two years he was basically worthless for a half of the season. He has no speed at all either. So, we're going to go with more 'speed', but bad defense? Sounds like a plan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 12:51 PM) If we're moving Ramirez to SS, then Hardy isn't an option. Putting him at 3rd base significantly lowers his value, and after watching a ton of Brewers games in the last 2 years, we'd be annoyed with him. He's incredibly streaky, as the last two years he was basically worthless for a half of the season. He has no speed at all either. Im pretty sure if you get someone like Hardy, you move Alexei back to 2B. And i'll take .283 .343 .821 with 20+ bombs from my SS everyday, not sure how that can be deemed negative or worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (Mr. Showtime @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 05:57 PM) So, we're going to go with more 'speed', but bad defense? Sounds like a plan! That's what I'm worried about. I think the perfect scenario is if the Sox can trade for Brian Roberts, and then you can go with Fields at 3B and batting 8th or 9th. I don't think we understand how bad Fields knee injury was. I was reading an interview he gave at a recent Oklahoma St football game, and he stated that he couldn't even tie his shoes after May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 05:59 PM) Im pretty sure if you get someone like Hardy, you move Alexei back to 2B. And i'll take .283 .343 .821 with 20+ bombs from my SS everyday, not sure how that can be deemed negative or worthless. I'll take Hardy also if it means keeping Ramirez at 2nd base. Hardy got off to a HUGE start in 2006, and then went into a huge power funk after May. Last year, I believe he was terrible for the first few months, and then really turned it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 05:59 PM) The 1st mistake was trying to read into what Williams has said so far this off-season. You and I both know that they'll be going after speed. I don't see what options there are for 3rd base to replace Crede/Fields. Blake is going to get a lot more money than he deserves, and it seems like Blalock will be back with Texas. Recent reports suggest Beckham's being moved to 3rd base, so there's no reason for Sox to bring in someone for the long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxbrian Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Would Seattle take Javy for Beltre straight up? Or would we have to include somebody like Broadway in the deal? However, I'd love to get Hardy, but again, would they give us JJ for Javy straight up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 06:03 PM) Would Seattle take Javy for Beltre straight up? Or would we have to include somebody like Broadway in the deal? However, I'd love to get Hardy, but again, would they give us JJ for Javy straight up? Seattle would want someone younger than Javy, as they're looking to rebuild. Broadway has ZERO trade value. Edited October 31, 2008 by fathom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 01:03 PM) Would Seattle take Javy for Beltre straight up? Or would we have to include somebody like Broadway in the deal? However, I'd love to get Hardy, but again, would they give us JJ for Javy straight up? Javy doesn't want to go to the west coast and has no trade protection there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 12:59 PM) The 1st mistake was trying to read into what Williams has said so far this off-season. I don't believe anything he says really. I just look at what they've done in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Yes, please stop with the Javy to Seattle ideas. He has no trade clauses that would prevent that from ever happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 12:53 PM) His best assets are turning 2, tough turn and throw, and his arm in general. Yes, as I mentioned as well, he does make stupid mistakes. Those should fade over time. Stats wise, he wasn't "brutal" anyway. His FPct (.981) was 12th in baseball for 2B, RF (4.99) is 11th, ZR (.817) is 8th. But stats aren't a great measure for defense anyway, as evidenced in his case by his higher ranking in ZR than RF. I'd put Ramirez as an upper half defensive 2B. And as I said, that's at a position he was still learning, as he's a native SS. He also had the 3rd worst RZR (revised zone rating) in the game and by far the least OOZ (plays out of zone) of any 2B in the game which lends credence to those who believe his range was actually mediocre for a player with his speed. (myself included) And not that the stat means anything but Alexei's FPct was the 12th best out of only 17 qualified 2B that puts him in the bottom 3rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Here's what we should be looking for in any trade idea... Carlos Quentin. These are the types of players Kenny looooves to trade for. The ones with HUGE upsides that are either blocked at the bigs, deemed injury risks or the organization is just down on. Look at some of the players he's brought in that qualify: Quentin Dye Pierzynski Konerko (although I can't remember if it was him or Schu for PK) Vaz Contreras Floyd Uribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Hardy would be ideal. IF somehow we were able to get both Weeks and Hardy from the Brewers, our offseason could be near complete with that. With Hardy at SS and Alexei at 2B, our range up the middle would be some of the best. Also on Weeks, the man has had 2 fantastic second halves the past 2 seasons. One of these years, he's going to put 2 halves together to the tune of .280-25-75-30 w/ an .850 OPS. Buy low Kenny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 01:12 PM) He also had the 3rd worst RZR (revised zone rating) in the game and by far the least OOZ (plays out of zone) of any 2B in the game which lends credence to those who believe his range was actually mediocre for a player with his speed. (myself included) And not that the stat means anything but Alexei's FPct was the 12th best out of only 17 qualified 2B that puts him in the bottom 3rd. I prefer to use my eyes than look at stats for defense, and my eyes told me while Alexi had some obvious defencisies(sp?) he made some great plays at 2B that most other 2B couldnt and his arm helped turn more double plays than just about any other 2B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 01:29 PM) Hardy would be ideal. IF somehow we were able to get both Weeks and Hardy from the Brewers, our offseason could be near complete with that. With Hardy at SS and Alexei at 2B, our range up the middle would be some of the best. Also on Weeks, the man has had 2 fantastic second halves the past 2 seasons. One of these years, he's going to put 2 halves together to the tune of .280-25-75-30 w/ an .850 OPS. Buy low Kenny. With Hardy and Lexi in the middle infield you would have 40+ hr's and probably very good RBI numbers and also good defense. We still need to find a lead off man however and your only option is to find one in CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Oct 31, 2008 -> 06:41 PM) With Hardy and Lexi in the middle infield you would have 40+ hr's and probably very good RBI numbers and also good defense. We still need to find a lead off man however and your only option is to find one in CF. If they were to get Hardy for SS, I would guarantee the Sox traded for Tavares in CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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