Paint it Black Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=neyer_rob Rob Neyer usually has pretty insightful things to say, and this is no exception. Neyer makes his argument, and I'll make mine short. Name me a better 4th starter, I dare you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox2334 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 relax pal you dont know whats going on. Most obvious thing that people think happeneds, kenny does oppisite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Good article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 07:15 PM) http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=neyer_rob Rob Neyer usually has pretty insightful things to say, and this is no exception. Neyer makes his argument, and I'll make mine short. Name me a better 4th starter, I dare you. Candidates: Tim Wakefield Andy Sonanstine Kyle Davies Kevin Slowey Rich Harden/Ryan Dempster Todd Wellemeyer Joe Saunders Clayton Kershaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Name me a better 4th starter, I dare you. Name me 4 more expensive 4th starters. I dare you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 (edited) Its like everyone who makes the 5th starter argument conveniently blocks out the end of the season. Did you not see what I saw? You want to see that again, for two more years? Everyone in the rotation steps it up only to have one of the higher paid pitchers step back and drag the team back and you want to see that again? Not me. Not ever again. Im also sick of hearing about how great his stuff is. Mike MacDougal has great stuff too, but both him and Vazquez lack the intestinal fortitude that a competing team demands of its pitchers. Edited November 5, 2008 by kyyle23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunk23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Nov 5, 2008 -> 01:44 AM) Its like everyone who makes the 5th starter argument conveniently blocks out the end of the season. Did you not see what I saw? You want to see that again, for two more years? Everyone in the rotation steps it up only to have one of the higher paid pitchers step back and drag the team back and you want to see that again? Not me. Not ever again. Im also sick of hearing about how great his stuff is. Mike MacDougal has great stuff too, but both him and Vazquez lack the intestinal fortitude that a competing team demands of its pitchers. Did you read the article? He countered the "pressure game"" cherry picking by showing how awesome he was in the regular season stretch. He also gets paid very little considering how expensive it is to sign even crappier pitchers. The Sox don't need to dump salary and Vazquez is good enough that it wouldn't warrant a salary dump. It would cost just as much or more to get an equivalent pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (chunk23 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 06:52 PM) Did you read the article? He countered the "pressure game"" cherry picking by showing how awesome he was in the regular season stretch. He also gets paid very little considering how expensive it is to sign even crappier pitchers. The Sox don't need to dump salary and Vazquez is good enough that it wouldn't warrant a salary dump. It would cost just as much or more to get an equivalent pitcher. I read the article. I also watched the entire season. When Javy was needed, he faded. And I am not interested in dumping salary, I just want to dump Vazquez. I have full confidence that KW can replace his spot in the rotation effectively. And Javy was far from awesome in the regular season stretch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunk23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Nov 5, 2008 -> 01:55 AM) I read the article. I also watched the entire season. When Javy was needed, he faded. And I am not interested in dumping salary, I just want to dump Vazquez. I have full confidence that KW can replace his spot in the rotation effectively. And Javy was far from awesome in the regular season stretch Who would replace him? We need a 4 and 5 if we trade him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 06:58 PM) From August 1st-September 14th, he pitched like an ace. I'm ready to move on from Javy, but not as a salary dump. I trust Williams feels the same way. Come on now, he beat KC twice, beat Oakland, beat Cleveland, lost to Detroit and beat them once, lost to Tampa Bay, and lost to Boston, and lost to Toronto. He beat the teams he should beat, and lost to playoff teams, hardly an ace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I agree with Neyer. Javy is a guy who can get a team to the playoffs. He's not a salary dump. But he likely won't be on the sox next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (beck72 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 07:31 PM) I agree with Neyer. Javy is a guy who can get a team to the playoffs. He's not a salary dump. But he likely won't be on the sox next year. Javy is a guy who can eat innings and save your pen for the playoffs. He is not a pressure pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 (edited) im very against trading javy if we are trading him just to trade him...im ok with it if we get a fair return in the form of young players and salary relief....not to mention kenny better have another starter lined up because we cannot go into 2009 with just buerhle danks and floyd and then question marks in richard and whoever at 4 and 5.... Edited November 5, 2008 by daa84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeynach Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 (edited) Maybe he's not the guy to win the big game for you. But he's definitely one of the guys who will get you to the big games. Maybe the real issue here is our perception. We hate Vazquez cuz he never pitches big in big games, but maybe we are trying to compare an apple to an orange. Vazquez is who he is, we all know that now. Yes he still has some value, but only if he is surrounded by quality #1 and #2 starters. Thats the problem, the sox have a cast of #2/#3 starters in Buehrle/Danks/Floyd, let alone Vazquez himself is about a #3. Not only would Vazquez probably post better numbers, but he would be much more highly valued if the sox had your default #1 and #2 starters (think Webb/Haren, or Sabathia/Sheets). Edited November 5, 2008 by joeynach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 07:05 PM) Come on now, he beat KC twice, beat Oakland, beat Cleveland, lost to Detroit and beat them once, lost to Tampa Bay, and lost to Boston, and lost to Toronto. He beat the teams he should beat, and lost to playoff teams, hardly an ace Crap. Look at his season game log. He pitched alot of good games this season. Amazing how some fans want to re-write history and trash him because he had a bad end to the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Nov 5, 2008 -> 02:48 AM) Javy is a guy who can eat innings and save your pen for the playoffs. He is not a pressure pitcher. That's a big reason why Javy can get a team to the playoffs. The sox know he's not a pressure pitcher now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 5, 2008 -> 03:02 AM) Crap. Look at his season game log. He pitched alot of good games this season. Amazing how some fans want to re-write history and trash him because he had a bad end to the year. He threw pretty well overall. Yet at the end when it mattered, he was nowhere to be found. I just think the sox will move on--esp after Ozzie called him out and Javy proved Ozzie right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 (edited) Tim Wakefield (he's more likely to retire than to pitch for the ChiSox) Andy Sonanstine (better, but more likely to get Edwin Jackson and what do we have to give up?) Kyle Davies (definitely not better than Javier) Kevin Slowey (MN would never trade him to us, but I would take him in a heartbeat) Rich Harden/Ryan Dempster (way too expensive) Todd Wellemeyer (mehhh) Joe Saunders (would be prohibitively expensive to acquire) Clayton Kershaw (Dodgers wouldn't dream of dealing him yet) Edited November 5, 2008 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 08:02 PM) Crap. Look at his season game log. He pitched alot of good games this season. Amazing how some fans want to re-write history and trash him because he had a bad end to the year. What did I rewrite? Javy has sucked when the Sox have been in contention. Both seasons. Edited November 5, 2008 by kyyle23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 08:25 PM) Tim Wakefield (he's more likely to retire than to pitch for the ChiSox) Andy Sonanstine (better, but more like to get Edwin Jackson and what do we give up?) Kyle Davies (not better than Javier) Kevin Slowey (MN would never trade him to us) Rich Harden/Ryan Dempster (way too expensive) Todd Wellemeyer (mehhh) Joe Saunders (would be prohibitively expensive to acquire) Clayton Kershaw (Dodgers wouldn't dream of dealing him yet) The name of the game was to name better 4th starters, not to name better starters likely to be traded to the Sox Edited November 5, 2008 by kyyle23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 08:28 PM) The question wasn't about avaliabilty. It was about who is a better 4th starter than Javy. Thats just not true. Come on Tony, Javy couldnt pitch past the 5th inning in his first year with the Sox. this year he couldnt pitch down the stretch, when his team needed him most, and in the playoffs. You will not get me to agree that Javy has been good unless the Sox were out of contention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 09:27 PM) The name of the game was to name better 4th starters, not to name better starters likely to be traded to the Sox Fine, but Slowey is the 3rd starter for the Twins, before Perkins and Blackburn. I would rank Saunders ahead of Weaver/Garland. You could argue that he was co-number 2 with E. Santana. Kershaw hasn't proven anything at all yet...Wellemeyer was released by the Royals not so long ago. Edited November 5, 2008 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 08:44 PM) Fine, but Slowey is the 3rd starter for the Twins, before Perkins and Blackburn. I would rank Saunders ahead of Weaver/Garland. You could argue that he was co-number 2 with E. Santana. Kershaw hasn't proven anything at all yet...Wellemeyer was released by the Royals not so long ago. splittin hairs now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 (edited) QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 08:25 PM) What did I rewrite? Javy has sucked when the Sox have been in contention. Both seasons. Simply.not.true. Go back and look at the game logs. In late 2006, Javy pitched EXTREMELY well. His late season losses had nothing to do with pitching poorly. The Sox simply could not score runs because several key hitters disappeared the last two months. Again... in 2008, Javy pitched extremely well in several games where he got losses or no decisions because of lack of offensive support. Want dates? - Toronto on May 5th - Angels on May 15th - Tampa on May 31st - Oakland on July 3rd - Texas on July 21st - Toronto on September 9th In his 3 regular season games against Tampa this year, he pitched well enough to win all of them. But in the 2 games he lost, the Sox scored a total of 3 runs. The two games he pitched against Toronto and lost... he pitched well enough to win both of those. But the Sox scored a TOTAL of 1 run in those two games. He beat the Twins in two of his 3 regular season starts against them. The game he won against Cleveland on September 3rd was HUGE, because they were hot and Javy kept us from getting swept. So... you have to look at what happened in the games rather than using W-L or what happened this September to put a label on his term with the Sox. Edited November 5, 2008 by scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 08:47 PM) No, it goes Liriano-Blackburn-Perkins-Slowey. Nah... It's Liriano, Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, with Perkins last. In fact, the Twins skipped Perkins a couple of times late in the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.