The indoctrination starts already

[Steff]

If the rich folks don't need this type of thing and are able to opt out of it, then they are given a choice. If the poor folks decide that they want to opt out of it, and not accept the assitance in return, then they should be given that choice as well. If you are going to require the needy to perform comm service, then you should require the rich to also. But then, you'd have the bleeding hearts saying that the rich shouldn't get assistance because they don't need it. But, is their service any less valuable than their not so fortunate counterparts?

 

 

I'm not requiring anyone to do anything. This is a CLEAR matter of choice. It's got nothing to do with the rich or the poor. If you take advantage of this program you do community service regardless of how rich or poor you are. I never said anything about anyone or their service being any more or less valuable than anyone else. You brought up the elitism.

[Steff]

k... right... but as a college student even 50 hours/semester would be a huge pain in the ass - much less 100.

 

right now, i take what's called theatre practicum - backstage, crew stuff - and we have to do 50 hours worth over the semester. it's pretty time consuming. and to have to add ANOTHER fifty on top of that would be insane.

 

 

I don't think you have to worry about this. And going forward I would guess students will know what they have to do and be able to plan accordingly.

[YASNY]

I'm not requiring anyone to do anything. This is a CLEAR matter of choice. It's got nothing to do with the rich or the poor. If you take advantage of this program you do community service regardless of how rich or poor you are. I never said anything about anyone or their service being any more or less valuable than anyone else. You brought up the elitism.

 

But you said you had no problem with requiring community service. I'm saying requiring it is fine as long as elitism is not not going to effect the implementation of said service.

[Reddy]

I don't think you have to worry about this. And going forward I would guess students will know what they have to do and be able to plan accordingly.

right, it's not about me specifically. i'm just saying that my schedule is the schedule of a lot of kids in school. not the majority, but a lot. but maybe you're right. we'll see.

[Texsox]

When community service went from something important and the people who performed it were considered good and nice to something that celebrities were forced into for killing their spouses in California, our communities started to crumble. So go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend . . .

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Gotcha. Drivers ed was probably a reach.

 

But what about the government already mandating that every Illinois student pass a Constitution test? One can argue that this requirement is imposed for social reasons as well as educational ones, as it helps ensure basic fundamentals of "good citizenship." I see this community service thing kind of the same way, and kids might actually help contribute something positive while learning things in a real world setting they might not otherwise experience; not unlike an internship.

 

Nobody I know has a big problem with the government mandating a Constitution requirement. Is that just because its easier satisfied than service?

 

 

I'm not sure what constitution test you are referring to. I've done all my schooling and lived all my life in Germany and various parts of New York state

[SleepyWhiteSox]

When I was in High School, I was forced by the despots at my school to take algebra, geometry, and two years of a foreign language in order to graduate, and I was forced by the totalitarian state to take drivers' ed in order to get my license. Lord knows I've never been the same.

 

 

 

 

We had mandatory community service days when I was in college.

 

I survived.

 

Me too. I've gone to Catholic schools from kindergarten through college, and community service was always required yet not really something anyone dreaded, so I fail to see what the big deal is. I think it's a great idea, and about as valuable an experience as many other educational classes.

 

 

As for college, Obama was saying it would just be an option for college kids to get those 4000 dollars...

[EvilMonkey]

I think all the focus here on students, which was most of that part listed, is being short-sighted. There was also these gems there.

1) Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America,

2) Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55

 

So, even after you get out of school, it seems like he wants free labor for life. Anybody here in their 30's or 40's with 2 or 3 kids and a job have 50 - 100 extra hours to spare?

[Steff]

But you said you had no problem with requiring community service. I'm saying requiring it is fine as long as elitism is not not going to effect the implementation of said service.

 

 

I did and I don't. If you CHOOSE to take advantage of this program you will be required to perform CS. I'm sorry but I can't be any more clear.

 

And I understand what you said just fine and simply diagree and find it a bit premature at this stage of it's life to resolve problems that have yet to occur.

 

As I said earlier, agree to disagree. Please.

[StrangeSox]

Am I the only person that watched Obama in the debates? Seems like he mentioned it at least a couple of times that he would give college students the option of a tax credit in exchange for community service.

Obama proposed this thing a long time ago. I see no problem with tying grants/ tax credits to a relatively low amount of community service. 100 hours for $4k, or $40/ hour. Not too shabby.

 

This isn't an official proposal or bill or anything, so I think analyzing every word just doesn't matter too much at this point.

 

[Chet Lemon]

My understanding of this based on the campaign is that X (# of service hrs.) is required to receive Y (college scholarship or tax credits, or ???). Since Y (the incentive) will likely be a compromise between the White House and the Congress, it has not been placed on the change.gov site. At this point the incentives have not been determined, but requirements will be necessary to receive these incentives.

[BigSqwert]

I think all the focus here on students, which was most of that part listed, is being short-sighted. There was also these gems there.

1) Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America,

2) Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55

 

So, even after you get out of school, it seems like he wants free labor for life. Anybody here in their 30's or 40's with 2 or 3 kids and a job have 50 - 100 extra hours to spare?

 

Yeah, this sounds brutal:

 

Engage Retiring Americans in Service on a Large Scale: Older Americans have a wide range of skills and knowledge to contribute. Obama and Biden will expand and improve programs that connect individuals over the age of 55 to quality volunteer opportunities.

[EvilMonkey]

This sort of compromise is like the Feds telling the states to raise thier drinking age to 21 if they want Federal highway dollars. Sure, they have the OPTION to not do it, but it really isn't an option because they can't do without the Federal cash.

[Steff]

This isn't an official proposal or bill or anything, so I think analyzing every word just doesn't matter too much at this point.

 

 

 

That.

[clyons]

I'm not sure what constitution test you are referring to. I've done all my schooling and lived all my life in Germany and various parts of New York state

 

 

"American patriotism and the principles of representative government, as enunciated in the American Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States of America and the Constitution of the State of Illinois, and the proper use and display of the American flag, shall be taught in all public schools and other educational institutions supported or maintained in whole or in part by public funds. No student shall receive a certificate of graduation without passing a satisfactory examination upon such subjects.

 

Instruction shall be given in all such schools and institutions in the method of voting at elections by means of the Australian Ballot system and the method of the counting of votes for candidates."

 

105 ILCS 5/27-3

 

I've lived in Illinois all my life, and this has been state law for as long as I can remember.

[lostfan]

I think all the focus here on students, which was most of that part listed, is being short-sighted. There was also these gems there.

1) Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America,

2) Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55

 

So, even after you get out of school, it seems like he wants free labor for life. Anybody here in their 30's or 40's with 2 or 3 kids and a job have 50 - 100 extra hours to spare?

What on earth is wrong with #2?

 

It's not free labor for the government, it's service for any number of possible things in communities, or wherever.

[YASNY]

I did and I don't. If you CHOOSE to take advantage of this program you will be required to perform CS. I'm sorry but I can't be any more clear.

 

And I understand what you said just fine and simply diagree and find it a bit premature at this stage of it's life to resolve problems that have yet to occur.

 

As I said earlier, agree to disagree. Please.

 

Okay, I must have missed something somewhere along the line. We will agree to disagree.

[Rex Kickass]

This is what made Tuesday so great.

 

We got a candidate elected whose biggest controversy is whether or not Americans should perform community service in exchange for a tax credit.

[BigSqwert]

What on earth is wrong with #2?

 

I'm at a loss. I can't believe someone would complain about something like that.

[lostfan]

This sort of compromise is like the Feds telling the states to raise thier drinking age to 21 if they want Federal highway dollars. Sure, they have the OPTION to not do it, but it really isn't an option because they can't do without the Federal cash.

Or he could just scrap the whole thing and nobody gets any federal cash.

 

/highfive

[Steff]

What on earth is wrong with #2?

 

It's not free labor for the government, it's service for any number of possible things in communities, or wherever.

 

 

 

My 80 year old mother in law would say nothing. She's bored out of her mind and would LOVE this.

[BigSqwert]

My 80 year old mother in law would say nothing. She's bored out of her mind and would LOVE this.

 

And if she hated the idea she could decide not to participate since it's voluntary.

[Soxbadger]

This sort of compromise is like the Feds telling the states to raise thier drinking age to 21 if they want Federal highway dollars. Sure, they have the OPTION to not do it, but it really isn't an option because they can't do without the Federal cash.

 

No it isnt.

 

Giving people money for college is a handout and the govt wants to make them earn it instead of just giving free money away.

 

I myself never got a dime from the govt nor did I receive any federal aid or loans through undergraduate school. Why should people get money for free and not have to do anything, when others have to pay and get nothing?

 

Is the problem that the govt is actually trying to make people earn hand outs?

 

Because that seems exactly opposite of the arguments for why Obama was bad (ie he was going to spread the wealth).

Edited November 7, 2008 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

This is what made Tuesday so great.

 

We got a candidate elected whose biggest controversy is whether or not Americans should perform community service in exchange for a tax credit.

 

This isn't even on the list of the biggest controversy's for an Obama Presidency.

[Steff]

And if she hated the idea she could decide not to participate since it's voluntary.

 

 

3pts!