The indoctrination starts already

[Texsox]

I think all the focus here on students, which was most of that part listed, is being short-sighted. There was also these gems there.

1) Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America,

2) Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55

 

So, even after you get out of school, it seems like he wants free labor for life. Anybody here in their 30's or 40's with 2 or 3 kids and a job have 50 - 100 extra hours to spare?

 

Damn right, you see them coaching baseball, football, soccer, you see them volunteering in the school, at football games selling popcorn, at Scout meetings, all over the place.

 

I guess they are idiots trying to better their community instead of sitting on their ass asking for someone else to do it. But don't worry, when your kids are in those programs, someone else will do it for you.

[Steve9347]

See my previous post. If you don't want the $4000 from the gov't then it isn't a requirement

I hadn't noticed that. They are compensating, I'd have gladly done 2 hours of community service for 4k worth of books and food.

[Steff]

I think all the focus here on students, which was most of that part listed, is being short-sighted. There was also these gems there.

1) Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America,

2) Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55

 

So, even after you get out of school, it seems like he wants free labor for life. Anybody here in their 30's or 40's with 2 or 3 kids and a job have 50 - 100 extra hours to spare?

 

 

Give up one of those silly bowling leagues and you'll be all set. LOL

[Soxy]

I think all the focus here on students, which was most of that part listed, is being short-sighted. There was also these gems there.

1) Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America,

2) Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55

 

So, even after you get out of school, it seems like he wants free labor for life. Anybody here in their 30's or 40's with 2 or 3 kids and a job have 50 - 100 extra hours to spare?

Not quite in my thirties, but working two jobs. I sure as hell could find 100 hours a year for a 4000 tax credit.

 

[clyons]

I think all the focus here on students, which was most of that part listed, is being short-sighted. There was also these gems there.

1) Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America,

2) Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55

 

So, even after you get out of school, it seems like he wants free labor for life. Anybody here in their 30's or 40's with 2 or 3 kids and a job have 50 - 100 extra hours to spare?

 

JFK also "called on" all citizens to serve their country, there just weren't any internets for people to b**** on back then.

[Texsox]

I just did a quick check of my records for two small counties in South Texas, we have over 4,000 adult volunteers. Based on job codes and the sizes of units, at least 2,500 to 3,000 give 100 or more hours per year. Many, many will give one full week, 24/7, with their units at a summer camp. That's at least 150 hours right there. Then add weekly meetings, another 100+ hours. One weekend campout per month, another 48 - 36 hours per month. So basically I know of close to a thousand parents who will give in excess of 500 hours per year.

[southsider2k5]

Give up one of those silly bowling leagues and you'll be all set. LOL

 

There is actually a really valid point in here, and it goes back to all of the college students who are saying that they are "too busy". Its a life choice. For people who have to have the money, it is a choice of going to college or not. At that point, you most likely make the life choice to give up something that you think is ultra-important right now, such as a social life, sport, club etc. Guess what, that prepares you well for the real world where you make those very same types of choices during your life. Look no further than having kids. I don't have to tell anyone on here about how much you sacrifice of yourself after you have kids. Its a good thing to have that life lesson earlier, rather than later in life.

[NorthSideSox72]

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Nov 7, 2008 -> 11:29 AM)

I think all the focus here on students, which was most of that part listed, is being short-sighted. There was also these gems there.

1) Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America,

2) Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55

 

So, even after you get out of school, it seems like he wants free labor for life. Anybody here in their 30's or 40's with 2 or 3 kids and a job have 50 - 100 extra hours to spare?

 

Alpha, you have taken this thing and carried it waaaaaaay beyond what is being suggested. Free labor for life? Its debatable if even the school-age segment is required, and there is NOTHING in there that even HINTS at requiring adults to do anything. You've taken this to an extreme as if to prove a slippery slope point or something, but you are stating is as if it was fact.

 

[Reddy]

There is actually a really valid point in here, and it goes back to all of the college students who are saying that they are "too busy". Its a life choice. For people who have to have the money, it is a choice of going to college or not. At that point, you most likely make the life choice to give up something that you think is ultra-important right now, such as a social life, sport, club etc. Guess what, that prepares you well for the real world where you make those very same types of choices during your life. Look no further than having kids. I don't have to tell anyone on here about how much you sacrifice of yourself after you have kids. Its a good thing to have that life lesson earlier, rather than later in life.

i'm not gonna touch this.

[Texsox]

There is actually a really valid point in here, and it goes back to all of the college students who are saying that they are "too busy". Its a life choice. For people who have to have the money, it is a choice of going to college or not. At that point, you most likely make the life choice to give up something that you think is ultra-important right now, such as a social life, sport, club etc. Guess what, that prepares you well for the real world where you make those very same types of choices during your life. Look no further than having kids. I don't have to tell anyone on here about how much you sacrifice of yourself after you have kids. Its a good thing to have that life lesson earlier, rather than later in life.

 

[EvilMonkey]

Damn right, you see them coaching baseball, football, soccer, you see them volunteering in the school, at football games selling popcorn, at Scout meetings, all over the place.

 

I guess they are idiots trying to better their community instead of sitting on their ass asking for someone else to do it. But don't worry, when your kids are in those programs, someone else will do it for you.

Whoa Tex. No where did I say or suggest that volunteering was bad. Perhaps you missed it in the very forst post that myself, wife and oldest son all volunteer. Forcing someone to volunteer is wrong. Making it a condition to graduate is wrong.

[NorthSideSox72]

Whoa Tex. No where did I say or suggest that volunteering was bad. Perhaps you missed it in the very forst post that myself, wife and oldest son all volunteer. Forcing someone to volunteer is wrong. Making it a condition to graduate is wrong.

And how do you feel about giving scholarships for community and civil service, similar to the GI bill?

 

[Texsox]

Whoa Tex. No where did I say or suggest that volunteering was bad. Perhaps you missed it in the very forst post that myself, wife and oldest son all volunteer. Forcing someone to volunteer is wrong. Making it a condition to graduate is wrong.

 

It did seem out of character for you.

[EvilMonkey]

Alpha, you have taken this thing and carried it waaaaaaay beyond what is being suggested. Free labor for life? Its debatable if even the school-age segment is required, and there is NOTHING in there that even HINTS at requiring adults to do anything. You've taken this to an extreme as if to prove a slippery slope point or something, but you are stating is as if it was fact.

The slippery slope thing is the WHOLE point. What is to prevent this from becoming an all-encompassing program with citizens of all ages having to do 'service' work? Seems right now that there are a whole bunch of people in here that have no problem with the government telling them that their kids have to spend 100 hours or so doing something that they probably dont want to do. So, willing to give away your freedom for this? Where is your line that can't be crossed? Will you all feel that way when it evolves into adults having to do service work in order to get a tax refund? You don't HAVE to do the work, but if you want a refund, well, then you know what your 'choice' will be. And it is not far fetched to think it couldn't happen. Have you ever known a government program to STOP growing? Whoever administers this will find some way to expand their power and scope, and none of the possibilities are good.

[Texsox]

The slippery slope thing is the WHOLE point. What is to prevent this from becoming an all-encompassing program with citizens of all ages having to do 'service' work? Seems right now that there are a whole bunch of people in here that have no problem with the government telling them that their kids have to spend 100 hours or so doing something that they probably dont want to do. So, willing to give away your freedom for this? Where is your line that can't be crossed? Will you all feel that way when it evolves into adults having to do service work in order to get a tax refund? You don't HAVE to do the work, but if you want a refund, well, then you know what your 'choice' will be. And it is not far fetched to think it couldn't happen. Have you ever known a government program to STOP growing? Whoever administers this will find some way to expand their power and scope, and none of the possibilities are good.

 

Wait, we work instead of paying taxes to have someone else do the work? Interesting proposal. You save the government $X and you get to keep some/all of it. Kind of like user fees in reverse. Make the people who take the most, pay the most. Those that take less, by contributing, pay less.

[EvilMonkey]

And how do you feel about giving scholarships for community and civil service, similar to the GI bill?

Then you run into the problem of what community service is acceptable for the grants? As a Republican, I in no way, shape or form think that ACORN is a program worthy of government money, especially since they are such a biased organization for Democrats. However, I can see them as being listed as an appropriate program to satisfy the requirements. I know there is an organization out there similat to ACORN that supposedly works to register Republicans, and it would be wrong for them as well to be used for this.

[StrangeSox]

We better not have the government do anything, ever then, because at some point someone might possibly expand it into something we don't like.

 

This isn't an official proposal or bill. Analyzing every word just doesn't matter too much at this point. From everything else he's said, this would be optional for grant money for college students. I'm not sure about HS and GS, but many schools already institute these policies. We haven't had that dreaded slippery slope towards government enslavement from that. Extrapolating this to mean that the government is going to withhold your tax returns unless you complete required community service is absurd.

[Texsox]

Then you run into the problem of what community service is acceptable for the grants? As a Republican, I in no way, shape or form think that ACORN is a program worthy of government money, especially since they are such a biased organization for Democrats. However, I can see them as being listed as an appropriate program to satisfy the requirements. I know there is an organization out there similat to ACORN that supposedly works to register Republicans, and it would be wrong for them as well to be used for this.

 

So when they are set up outside a store, how do they know who is a Dem and who is a Rep?

 

I am wondering what is being indoctrinated here. Perhaps that in order to live in this country there is a price to pay in time, talent, and treasure. That you can't just take, take, take and it's not just me, me, me. That the government isn't just going to give you something without you putting a little of yourself into it.

 

Yep, I can see why a conservative would be against that. They always do like that make the government give me stuff for doing nothing.

 

I'm really surprised you are against this. I guess there is some liberal in you after all.

[NorthSideSox72]

The slippery slope thing is the WHOLE point. What is to prevent this from becoming an all-encompassing program with citizens of all ages having to do 'service' work? Seems right now that there are a whole bunch of people in here that have no problem with the government telling them that their kids have to spend 100 hours or so doing something that they probably dont want to do. So, willing to give away your freedom for this? Where is your line that can't be crossed? Will you all feel that way when it evolves into adults having to do service work in order to get a tax refund? You don't HAVE to do the work, but if you want a refund, well, then you know what your 'choice' will be. And it is not far fetched to think it couldn't happen. Have you ever known a government program to STOP growing? Whoever administers this will find some way to expand their power and scope, and none of the possibilities are good.

Drawing the line is the art of all politics and all legislation. We can't (IMO) be afraid to enter into something positive, like volunteerism, just because we don't want to draw a line.

 

My line is 18. You are less than 18, the states and the US see fit that you are required to go through some formative educational process. I see zero problem with mandating that include community or civil service.

 

Over 18, you are a legal adult, you are free of your obligations. You then go into incentivizing it, via scholarships, etc., just like with military service.

 

Drawing the line is not that hard.

 

[southsider2k5]

We better not have the government do anything, ever then, because at some point someone might possibly expand it into something we don't like.

 

This isn't an official proposal or bill. Analyzing every word just doesn't matter too much at this point. From everything else he's said, this would be optional for grant money for college students. I'm not sure about HS and GS, but many schools already institute these policies. We haven't had that dreaded slippery slope towards government enslavement from that. Extrapolating this to mean that the government is going to withhold your tax returns unless you complete required community service is absurd.

 

I would rather see people debating the merits of a bill before it passes, versus afterwards. Its good for the public to be educated about what is going on in their country. I think it is a healthy exercise in Democracy to have these exact kind of discussions. Maybe if more people did, they would be more willing to hold their elected officials accountable.

[BigSqwert]

I would rather see people debating the merits of a bill before it passes, versus afterwards. Its good for the public to be educated about what is going on in their country. I think it is a healthy exercise in Democracy to have these exact kind of discussions. Maybe if more people did, they would be more willing to hold their elected officials accountable.

 

This isn't even drawn up as a bill right now. He's not even the President yet.

[StrangeSox]

I would rather see people debating the merits of a bill before it passes, versus afterwards. Its good for the public to be educated about what is going on in their country. I think it is a healthy exercise in Democracy to have these exact kind of discussions. Maybe if more people did, they would be more willing to hold their elected officials accountable.

 

If this were anything more than a paragraph on a website, sure. If he articulates this plan more formally, I'm all for debate. If it goes to Congress, lets discuss it.

 

But let's not scream that the sky is falling just quite yet, and don't go accusing the new President elect of indoctrinating children to start a healthy discussion. That sort of crap is what has dragged political discussion through the mud. An open discussion on the merits or demerits of having mandatory civil/ community service for school children would be great, but starting out the discussion with accusations isn't generally isn't going to lead to that.

Edited November 7, 2008 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

If this were anything more than a paragraph on a website, sure. If he articulates this plan more formally, I'm all for debate. If it goes to Congress, lets discuss it.

 

But let's not scream that the sky is falling just quite yet, and don't go accusing the new President elect of indoctrinating children to start a healthy discussion. That sort of crap is what has dragged political discussion through the mud. An open discussion on the merits or demerits of having mandatory civil/ community service for school children would be great, but starting out the discussion with accusations isn't helpful.

 

Pretty much one person in the whole thread has said that. The rest of people involved in his the discussion have been exactly what you are talking about. I would actually argue this thread is exactly what has been missing in political disscussions for the most part. Instead of everyone taking the discussion to the party platform talking points, there has been some great give and take of the issues by 95% of the people involved here. I think you are unfairly generalizing an entire thread based on one person.

[southsider2k5]

This isn't even drawn up as a bill right now. He's not even the President yet.

 

So we have to wait until January 20, 2009 to discuss anything he is talking about? I don't buy that for a second. I think it is totally fair to talk about anything Obama has proposed up to this point. He is our President-Elect after all. He is the only one whose policy thoughts really matter anymore.

[EvilMonkey]

Yes, I am the one screaming that the sky is falling. You need to be aware of the possibilities. And even then, I don't think I have been too unreasonable.