The indoctrination starts already

[NorthSideSox72]

Well I guess if this is additional grant money it isn't a burden. I see your point.

 

The program is still terrible as far as I can tell. It accomplishes nothing, just another waste. If we are giving out grants it shouldn't be based on who works for some government approved charity/political operation. No thanks.

 

Count me out. I'm not paying for this. But I'm a elitist jerk that thinks kids should be educated to a decent world standard; passing out flyers for 'rock the vote' doesn't help make our country stronger.

So then you're an Obama fan? Kidding.

 

I just don't see how its any worse or different than GI Bill money, or working for the university towards tuition, or assistantships, or any other variety of financial aid for college students.

 

[mr_genius]

So then you're an Obama fan? Kidding.

 

I just don't see how its any worse or different than GI Bill money, or working for the university towards tuition, or assistantships, or any other variety of financial aid for college students.

 

We actually need GI's, so I see why thats important. Working at a school is fine. There is no way I am going to support this program, according to your argument any program like this is worth it because students get payed for all kinds of stuff. I do not see this program as worth while. I probably never will.

 

Again, if you want to pay for this go right ahead. I don't. No way.

 

Isn't it not going to happen anyways?

 

edit: but i do like how educational standards kind of suck and suggesting those be an incentive for a grant gets ignored. how about let students chose? aren't you pro-choice? (messing with you)

Edited November 13, 2008 by mr_genius

[Steff]

Well I guess if this is additional grant money it isn't a burden. I see your point.

 

The program is still terrible as far as I can tell. It accomplishes nothing, just another waste. If we are giving out grants it shouldn't be based on who works for some government approved charity/political operation. No thanks.

 

Count me out. I'm not paying for this. But I'm a elitist jerk that thinks kids should be educated to a decent world standard; passing out flyers for 'rock the vote' doesn't help make our country stronger.

 

 

Would you please provide the link to where it details the type of CS that you've posted as fact above. I'm interested in reading more about that. TIA.

[NorthSideSox72]

We actually need GI's, so I see why thats important. Working at a school is fine. There is no way I am going to support this program, according to your argument any program like this is worth it because students get payed for all kinds of stuff. I do not see this program as worth while. I probably never will.

 

Again, if you want to pay for this go right ahead. I don't. No way.

 

Isn't it not going to happen anyways?

I'd suggest our need for GI's is, at best, on par with a need to have a population better educated and better able to be closer to the leading edge in the global business world.

 

And I am not sure what your last sentence means.

 

[mr_genius]

Would you please provide the link to where it details the type of CS that you've posted as fact above. I'm interested in reading more about that. TIA.

 

The details that were given about what would be considered acceptable charity work was vague. Examples were given with obvious charity work, but what I saw was worded as if the work would not be limited to these charity organizations. Who knows what the government approved work would be. I'm sure it would change with administrations, but then when college kids are getting grant money to work with Mormon charities on something like 'yes or proposition 8' in California, people would probably see why this type of stuff is inappropriate and not educational.

Edited November 13, 2008 by mr_genius

[mr_genius]

I'd suggest our need for GI's is, at best, on par with a need to have a population better educated and better able to be closer to the leading edge in the global business world.

 

And I am not sure what your last sentence means.

 

I'm fine with educational acheivement grant awards. I've actually suggested, more than once in this thread, that an educational alternative should be a choice for students (which they may chose instead of charity work) if we must have this program.

Edited November 13, 2008 by mr_genius

[Steff]

The details that were given about what would be considered acceptable charity work was vague. Examples were given with obvious charity work, but what I saw was worded as if the work would not be limited to these charity organizations. Who knows what the government approved work would be. I'm sure it would change with administrations, but then when college kids are getting grant money to work with Mormon charities on something like 'yes or proposition 8' in California, people would probably see why this type of stuff is inappropriate and not educational.

 

 

Ahh, gotcha. It was a little less stinkey then I anticipated, but stinkey bs nontheless.

[StrangeSox]

I really don't understand how better access to education and increased community service "accomplishes nothing."

[mr_genius]

I really don't understand how better access to education and increased community service "accomplishes nothing."

 

There's already enough extra stuff students can do, the service requirement is not necessary. I think these schools need to concentrate on education judging from our national test scores. It's a dumb idea to be adding this stuff. Get the basics down first then try to convince me about this extra stuff. There are already plenty of extra curricular activities that students can do to build character.

 

And honestly, I've already stated all this before in the thread. I don't see why this needs to be so circular.

[Texsox]

There's already enough extra stuff students can do, the service requirement is not necessary. I think these schools need to concentrate on education judging from our national test scores. It's a dumb idea to be adding this stuff. Get the basics down first then try to convince me about this extra stuff. There are already plenty of extra curricular activities that students can do to build character.

 

And honestly, I've already stated all this before in the thread. I don't see why this needs to be so circular.

 

What lesson are we teaching that "this financial aid checkis a government assistance program, and we will defend you against anyone who wants you to work for it"? Our government is designed to hand you things and you will not have to work for it.

 

Perhaps the biggest lesson is that there are no free lunches. That you will have to give something back. We all have time, talent, and treasure. Asking for a little service seems like a great lesson in starting to get people to not look for free handouts from the government. I thought I was the bleeding heart liberal around here, this seems surreal.

 

I understand the concern about the government deciding what qualifies. There are some serious traps in how it gets rolled out. Allowing the choice of working at any 401©3 leaves the opening for a LDS Prop 8 type work and that, quite frankly, would piss me off. But then having some government agency approve programs for this also has some dangers.

[mr_genius]

What lesson are we teaching that "this financial aid checkis a government assistance program, and we will defend you against anyone who wants you to work for it"? Our government is designed to hand you things and you will not have to work for it.

 

Perhaps the biggest lesson is that there are no free lunches. That you will have to give something back. We all have time, talent, and treasure. Asking for a little service seems like a great lesson in starting to get people to not look for free handouts from the government. I thought I was the bleeding heart liberal around here, this seems surreal.

 

I understand the concern about the government deciding what qualifies. There are some serious traps in how it gets rolled out. Allowing the choice of working at any 401©3 leaves the opening for a LDS Prop 8 type work and that, quite frankly, would piss me off. But then having some government agency approve programs for this also has some dangers.

 

What are we teaching them? Scholastics sure aren't it. Get that down then go with your cutesy explanation for adding this extra service. Since when have you ever been against a handout? this a first for you on the board.

[Texsox]

What are we teaching them? Scholastics sure aren't it. Get that down then go with your cutesy explanation for adding this extra service. Since when have you ever been against a handout? this a first for you on the board.

 

Not a first. I have always been in favor of community service. I've been in favor of some job training to get public assistance. And many more ideas like that. The simple skill of showing up when you are suppose to, completing a task, keeping track of the time you helped, are all excellent job skills that believe it or not, are lacking in many entry level employees. Responsibility and work are great lessons.

 

I've championed balanced budgets and the cut backs it would take to get there for years.

[mr_genius]

The simple skill of showing up when you are suppose to, completing a task, keeping track of the time you helped, are all excellent job skills that believe it or not, are lacking in many entry level employees.

 

Well we certainly have set the bar embarasingly low. That is the important lesson learned for 4 grand? This program just gets worse in my eyes the more reasons I get for it's implementation. What if they show up late, slack and get the grant, what does that teach them? Maybe that they need to join a government union. HEYO! Maybe working for $40 an hour to do government approved charity work is teaching them valuable life lessons they'll need as a Democrat. I withdraw my concerns.

 

(now I am just messing with you)

[Steff]

There's already enough extra stuff students can do, the service requirement is not necessary. I think these schools need to concentrate on education judging from our national test scores. It's a dumb idea to be adding this stuff. Get the basics down first then try to convince me about this extra stuff. There are already plenty of extra curricular activities that students can do to build character.

 

And honestly, I've already stated all this before in the thread. I don't see why this needs to be so circular.

 

 

But yet you keep coming in here stating your position over and over again. Honestly, if you're so against it, and we've all read it and got it, then why not just pass over the thread and not continue to disrupt constructive conversation amongst others on the topic?

 

 

[mr_genius]

But yet you keep coming in here stating your position over and over again. Honestly, if you're so against it, and we've all read it and got it, then why not just pass over the thread and not continue to disrupt constructive conversation amongst others on the topic?

 

There is an ignore option if you don't like my posts. But I'll leave the thread, I have made my point, you are correct.

[Texsox]

Well we certainly have set the bar embarasingly low. That is the important lesson learned for 4 grand? This program just gets worse in my eyes the more reasons I get for it's implementation. What if they show up late, slack and get the grant, what does that teach them? Maybe that they need to join a government union. HEYO! Maybe working for $40 an hour to do government approved charity work is teaching them valuable life lessons they'll need as a Democrat. I withdraw my concerns.

 

(now I am just messing with you)

 

Not requiring anything sets the lowest bar possible and is one nice step on the path to government dependence.

 

And yes, you are probably correct, volunteering and giving back to the community is probably a Democrat ideal and wanting to get paid fits more the GOP. And for that I am proud to be called a Dem. I've volunteered in sports leagues, PTAs, PTOs, raised a lot of money for different charities, cleaned up miles of beaches, lakes, and roadways, I've protested for human rights and worked in community pantries feeding the hungry and now work for a charity.

 

I see how these efforts have helped communities and helped those that volunteered much more than those that sat on their ass and accepted their government check like they were entitled.

[Steff]

There is an ignore option if you don't like my posts. But I'll leave the thread, I have made my point, you are correct.

 

 

If I didn't like them I would do just that. And you don't have to leave. But if you don't then I don't understand why you would question those who are simply responding to what you keep posting. It's circular for you because nothing new is being brought to the table.

 

 

[mr_genius]

If I didn't like them I would do just that. And you don't have to leave. But if you don't then I don't understand why you would question those who are simply responding to what you keep posting. It's circular for you because nothing new is being brought to the table.

 

Someone responded to a post of mine, questioning why I had a certain view. Basically I answered, and amazingly enough I still had the same reason as before. Funny how that works.

 

Actually, almost all my posts are responses to someone whom had quoted me.

Edited November 13, 2008 by mr_genius

[max power]

You would be one of the few that truly believe this if by the government staying out you mean no student financial aid. The financial aid is the ruse that the government is using to "get into people's lives". Once someone accepts that $4,000 Pell Grant, the government is asking them to give something in return.

 

So people could keep the government out of their lives by going to a private school and turning down any financial aid. Or they could work a job and earn that $4,000. Plenty of nice options.

While I might have found the idea behind this to be intriguing at one time, I believe that getting these people to volunteer will end up costing tax payers even more money, despite whatever work is gained from the actual volunteering because of the nature of big government today. Undoubtedly, this is going to turn into yet another gigantic bureaucratic disaster.

 

Change, in my opinion, would be less government, not more.

Edited November 13, 2008 by MAX

[EvilMonkey]

Once this program gets established in whatever final configuration it does, how long until it gets somehow transformed into Obama's National Civilian Security Force that he has previously talked about? You would have a structure in place of people registered with the government for their community service, and this could just be another one of those things to meet those obligations.

We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," he said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."

http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/il/article...al_service.html

programs like this exist all over the place. in more Marist type regimes like Cuba. Basically, what Obama is talking about is creating a Committee for the Defense of Liberal Ideology and Political correctness funded by a half trillion taxpayer dollars. National Security for this crowd is not about stopping terrorists from killing our children. National Security means to teach our children to understand the terrorists and their motivations so that our children can learn how to live their lives submissively so as not to offend the sensitivities of the very sensitive America haters. Their version of National Security is to force you to act for the common good of society and not in your own best interest. Since this goes against human nature, the half trillion dollar “Civilian National Security Force” will have to force Americans to change their nature and create a new citizen that is self sacrificing and collective in nature-an ant-like new man, like Che's and Fidel's new man.

 

[BigSqwert]

I'm amazed at home much detailed bashing there is of a proposed program that's not even in its infancy stages. There are virtually no details in place for this yet so many in here are acting as if they have the entire blue print of what will be rolled out.

[Texsox]

Once this program gets established in whatever final configuration it does, how long until it gets somehow transformed into Obama's National Civilian Security Force that he has previously talked about? You would have a structure in place of people registered with the government for their community service, and this could just be another one of those things to meet those obligations. http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/il/article...al_service.html

programs like this exist all over the place. in more Marist type regimes like Cuba. Basically, what Obama is talking about is creating a Committee for the Defense of Liberal Ideology and Political correctness funded by a half trillion taxpayer dollars. National Security for this crowd is not about stopping terrorists from killing our children. National Security means to teach our children to understand the terrorists and their motivations so that our children can learn how to live their lives submissively so as not to offend the sensitivities of the very sensitive America haters. Their version of National Security is to force you to act for the common good of society and not in your own best interest. Since this goes against human nature, the half trillion dollar "Civilian National Security Force" will have to force Americans to change their nature and create a new citizen that is self sacrificing and collective in nature-an ant-like new man, like Che's and Fidel's new man.

Much like Bush's Faith Based Initiatives did for Republicans and Christianity. But I can see where you believe Obama will be able to do this so much more effectively, and for the detriment of the US. We are powerless to stop him.

 

STOP GIVING TO THE COMMUNITY OR OBAMA WILL WIN! Alpha, PUT THAT STRAY DOG DOWN OR YOU WILL CATCH COMMUNISM.

[NorthSideSox72]

While I might have found the idea behind this to be intriguing at one time, I believe that getting these people to volunteer will end up costing tax payers even more money, despite whatever work is gained from the actual volunteering because of the nature of big government today. Undoubtedly, this is going to turn into yet another gigantic bureaucratic disaster.

 

Change, in my opinion, would be less government, not more.

This argument I get. This program will cost money - period. And we are already running huge deficits.

 

I still don't get the idea though, that this program has no value, or that it is some bizarre attempt at turning the U.S. into a communist state or whatever.

 

[lostfan]

When he says civilian national security force, the first thing I thought, in the context of what I do for a living, is that he was referring to having well-funded police departments and the like. However, you capitalize the letters there to make it sound more official and put it through a few right-wing blogs and it turns into the Hitler Youth. I love the internet.

[NorthSideSox72]

When he says civilian national security force, the first thing I thought, in the context of what I do for a living, is that he was referring to having well-funded police departments and the like. However, you capitalize the letters there to make it sound more official and put it through a few right-wing blogs and it turns into the Hitler Youth. I love the internet.

I thought he may have meant some combination of that, and some of the various state volunteer guard units that are prevalent in some parts of the country.