The indoctrination starts already

[Texsox]

There already is a mostly volunteer program in place called Exploring, a coed Boy Scout program for youth 14-20, which allows interested youth to work with various civil service departments. We have Posts here attached to police, fire, Border Patrol, FBI, and other agencies. So far no sign of communism being spread and it does not cost the government one penny. They do ride alongs, help with traffic and crowd control and various other tasks that free up the officers to perform more meaningful work that requires higher skills. Along the way they learn a lot and hopefully have a little fun.

[southsider2k5]

I'm amazed at home much detailed bashing there is of a proposed program that's not even in its infancy stages. There are virtually no details in place for this yet so many in here are acting as if they have the entire blue print of what will be rolled out.

 

Didn't we do this one already about 10 pages ago?

[Texsox]

Didn't we do this one already about 10 pages ago?

 

10 pages ago? Rookie

 

Change your settings. My Setting > Options > 50 Posts Per Page

 

All the lunacy, Half the time!

[Rex Kickass]

Once this program gets established in whatever final configuration it does, how long until it gets somehow transformed into Obama's National Civilian Security Force that he has previously talked about? You would have a structure in place of people registered with the government for their community service, and this could just be another one of those things to meet those obligations. http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/il/article...al_service.html

programs like this exist all over the place. in more Marist type regimes like Cuba.

 

And the people's republic of Switzerland.

 

And those commies in Germany require military or civil service from all their youth citizenry as well (Or at least did until budget constraints led them to a great reduction IIRC). There are very positive ways to accomplish what's envisioned here.

 

We had one Presidential campaign that talked about Country First a lot, I seem to recall. His nomination speech talked a lot about providing service. Now the other candidate, who won, is talking about providing an avenue for this service in exchange for some financial aid to go to college. I just don't see why this is so controversial.

 

This just seems like a lot of panic or fake outrage. If you're against national service, I guess I can understand... but I fail to see the problem of a country asking something in return for its own largesse in programs that people choose to be a part of.

[EvilMonkey]

And the people's republic of Switzerland.

 

And those commies in Germany require military or civil service from all their youth citizenry as well (Or at least did until budget constraints led them to a great reduction IIRC). There are very positive ways to accomplish what's envisioned here.

 

We had one Presidential campaign that talked about Country First a lot, I seem to recall. His nomination speech talked a lot about providing service. Now the other candidate, who won, is talking about providing an avenue for this service in exchange for some financial aid to go to college. I just don't see why this is so controversial.

 

This just seems like a lot of panic or fake outrage. If you're against national service, I guess I can understand... but I fail to see the problem of a country asking something in return for its own largesse in programs that people choose to be a part of.

You know what? We are not Germany. or Switzerland. Or Cuba. Or any of those other contries that REQUIRES some sort of military or civil service. And we shouldn't be. Should service be encouraged? yes! Required? no. And FYI, there is no 'aid' tied to this program, this one is a 'do it or else'. We just don't know what the 'else' is yet. Here is a link to Obama's CoS talking about it a while back. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kerry-picket/...n-will-media-ig

You may not think this controversial now, but as with the other plan talked about in here, the devil is in the details. Just who is going to 'lead' these people? How are they going to be trained? WHAT are they going to be trained in? Is the actual militry budget going to be cut to fund this? What if you don't want to do this, will they cut off some sort of benefit or send you to jail? What if you do it poorly? And wouldn't this be eerily similar to a draft, something the Democrats kept screaming that the Republicans were going to do? What is to prevent these from becomeing 'indoctrination camps'?

[NorthSideSox72]

You know what? We are not Germany. or Switzerland. Or Cuba. Or any of those other contries that REQUIRES some sort of military or civil service. And we shouldn't be. Should service be encouraged? yes! Required? no.

 

Then you are in favor of the program, it would appear.

 

And FYI, there is no 'aid' tied to this program

 

Did you miss the whole $4000 part?

 

this one is a 'do it or else'. We just don't know what the 'else' is yet.

 

Do it or else? Where do you see any indication of that? The site originally said it was required to get the 4k, but even that was misconstrued, so they clarified. Its not REQUIRED. You keep making this into something it isn't.

 

Look, if they change this so that it really is actually required for college students, then I'll be standing right beside you in protest. But that is just not the case.

 

 

[EvilMonkey]

Then you are in favor of the program, it would appear.

 

 

 

Did you miss the whole $4000 part?

 

 

 

Do it or else? Where do you see any indication of that? The site originally said it was required to get the 4k, but even that was misconstrued, so they clarified. Its not REQUIRED. You keep making this into something it isn't.

 

Look, if they change this so that it really is actually required for college students, then I'll be standing right beside you in protest. But that is just not the case.

I am talking here about the National Civilian Security Force , which has no tax break or incentives, it is required from everybody. Also still in the planning stages, but has been talked about for a while. Click the link and listen to Rahm's interview. They want this program required of everybody, no tax incentives to do it.

 

As for the OTHER program, the one where a tax incentive has been mentioned, as you are fond of pointing out to me, if isn't final yet, yet you spout that $4000 figure like gospel. When it first came up, there was no incentive included. There is nothign to say that there will be one when he finally gets this program into action. We'll have to see on that one when it happens.

[StrangeSox]

The "National Civilian Security Force" is another program (or maybe even a non-program) that has been laid out with zero detail. You have no idea if there are tax breaks or incentives or who is required to do what (if anything at all) because they haven't said anything about it. To my knowledge, Rahm Emmanual wasn't a close Obama adviser, so I wouldn't put too much stock in an old interview from him. He's not the President and he's not the one who sets policy.

 

When Obama's plan for the community service first came up on that website, it was vague and left the impression of mandatory service with nothing in return. This was in direct contradiction of several speeches and debate answers, so maybe the website was just put together hastily.

Edited November 13, 2008 by StrangeSox

[NorthSideSox72]

I am talking here about the National Civilian Security Force , which has no tax break or incentives, it is required from everybody. Also still in the planning stages, but has been talked about for a while. Click the link and listen to Rahm's interview. They want this program required of everybody, no tax incentives to do it.

 

Ah, I thought you were referring to the 4k for comm svc thingy. Got it.

 

As for the OTHER program, the one where a tax incentive has been mentioned, as you are fond of pointing out to me, if isn't final yet, yet you spout that $4000 figure like gospel. When it first came up, there was no incentive included. There is nothign to say that there will be one when he finally gets this program into action. We'll have to see on that one when it happens.

Was I think one who kept pointing out it wasn't final? I think you might be confusing me with Sqwert.

 

Like I said, the only way I've seen it stated before was money for college in exchange for community or civil service work. As long as its that, and its optional, then I like it (in a vaccum - budgetary issues aside for the moment). If its compulsary in some way, for adults, then I agree its not OK.

 

[EvilMonkey]

Ah, I thought you were referring to the 4k for comm svc thingy. Got it.

 

 

Was I think one who kept pointing out it wasn't final? I think you might be confusing me with Sqwert.

 

Like I said, the only way I've seen it stated before was money for college in exchange for community or civil service work. As long as its that, and its optional, then I like it (in a vaccum - budgetary issues aside for the moment). If its compulsary in some way, for adults, then I agree its not OK.

Yes, there were other parts of it not as fleshed out as the ones for the under-21 crowd, that did concern adults, and even seniors. The wording for those has been very generic such as 'encouraging them to help...' for now. Those are the parts that really scare me more, but wisely for him, they never released any deatils on those parts. I can't wait to hear those.

[YASNY]

Yes, there were other parts of it not as fleshed out as the ones for the under-21 crowd, that did concern adults, and even seniors. The wording for those has been very generic such as 'encouraging them to help...' for now. Those are the parts that really scare me more, but wisely for him, they never released any deatils on those parts. I can't wait to hear those.

 

The devil is in the details. Let's see how it pans out. I don't agree with "required" service either, unless it's a time of national crisis like World War II. The Viet Nam War was an entirely different matter and the draft was just wrong on so many levels. But, even if service is "required" and it not be of a military nature, I am 100% opposed to it. Freedom of choice has long been a Democrat rallying cry. The proof is in the pudding.

[southsider2k5]

The devil is in the details. Let's see how it pans out. I don't agree with "required" service either, unless it's a time of national crisis like World War II. The Viet Nam War was an entirely different matter and the draft was just wrong on so many levels. But, even if service is "required" and it not be of a military nature, I am 100% opposed to it. Freedom of choice has long been a Democrat rallying cry. The proof is in the pudding.

 

"Freedom of choice to choose to believe what we believe you should believe" would be more accurate.