Alexei on move to SS, Viciedo...

[BearSox]

I'm not sure if it's a good thing that Alexei is lifting weights...maybe it's part of his normal routine. I just think with players like Ramirez and Soriano, they get so much of their power from their wrists, forehands and the bat speed/whip.

 

I just hope it doesn't affect his swing...not worried about him becoming the next Gabe Kapler or Juan Gonzalez though. Roberto Clemente gained his strength when he was growing up by squeezing racquetballs over and over again with his hands.

All players need to spend time in the weight room and getting better physically. However, with Ramirez, you don't want him to bulk up and pull a Ruben Sierra on us. You can never add too much strength to your wrist and forearms. Like Roberto Clemente, Ted Williams would take a tennis ball or some rubber ball and squeeze it all day.

[caulfield12]

Maybe Fields, Allen/Shelby and Broadway/Russell...that could theoretically get it done. Still, I would rather have Dmitri Young and Perkins/Blackburn if I were the Mariners...not even close. You get a possible All-Star and a cheap/affordable starting pitcher. With our package, you get a potenial flameout in Fields, a marginal prospect that may or may not have a position and a big ??? that will have negligible impact on the pitching staff. Still, teams like the whole 3 for 1 idea...like those dumb Cub fans who come up with five random suspect names and think that equals Rafael Palmeiro.

 

Perhaps they were amazed by BA's homers off King Felix and are enamored with acquiring him too.

[BearSox]

I'd definitely would do Fields, decent prospect, and AAAA pitcher for Beltre deal. Fields and Poreda though, no way.

[DukeNukeEm]

I'd probably hesitate in making that deal as well simply because Poreda is so important to the big club right now but if they were willing to take Fields and 1 or 2 of anyone in our system not named Poreda and currently eligible for trade then I'd do it in a heart beat.

Yea but the drop off from Poreda to the rest is pretty steep and it would be hard assembling something that would match his value.

[Cubano]

I never liked Beltre. How come Ramirez does not have any bats? This is not Cuba.

[GreatScott82]

Looks like Viciedo is going to sign shortly after his thursday workout for teams. Torres seems pretty damn confident that not only can he contribute right way at the age of 19 but he said everyone should just hold your questions until the end of the 2009 season. Is this guy that good?

 

From Whitesox.com

 

CHICAGO -- Jaime Torres already has received a significant amount of offers from Major League teams interested in the services of Dayan Viciedo, the 19-year-old super-talent who defected from Cuba with his family in May 2008.

Torres, who also represents fellow Cubans Alexei Ramirez and Jose Contreras, has acknowledged said offers. He doesn't intend to truly get serious about them until Viciedo's workouts for numerous interested teams are completed Thursday evening in the Dominican Republic.

 

"There definitely are some firm offers in place, and I'm actually scheduled to meet with some team later today," Torres told MLB.com during a phone interview Tuesday from the Dominican Republic. "But I've not responded to one thing.

 

"We are shooting to get things done after Thursday's workout and before Monday of next week. Once we move to that stage of the negotiations, we intend to close the deal. I would prefer him to start getting adjusted to his new team."

 

As reported by the Chicago Sun-Times in Saturday's edition, Torres was informed by Major League Baseball on Friday that Viciedo was cleared to become a free agent. Viciedo has been playing for the Cuban national team since he was 14 and is considered a bona fide five-tool talent, if not a bit raw like most young players.

 

A report in Sunday's Chicago Tribune quoted an expert on Cuban baseball as describing Viciedo as an underachiever with a poor work ethic. But Torres bristled at such a suggestion, questioning if these critics had ever seen Viciedo in action.

 

"The best indication as to where this young man stands in regard to his potential is through the amount of people that organizations are sending down here to check him out during workouts," said Torres, with strident tones in defense of Viciedo, who checks in at 6-foot-2 and 230 pounds. "Every organization will be down here."

 

Ramirez, who also was a standout player for the Cuban national team, knows Viciedo from their playing days together. During a conference call with Chicago media on Tuesday afternoon, Ramirez praised Viciedo's natural ability.

 

"He has incredible potential and an explosive bat," said Ramirez of Viciedo through translator and White Sox director of public relations Lou Hernandez. "He has incredible strength in his wrists, great hand speed and a great arm. If you were to ask me, 'Does he have Major League potential,' I would say, 'Absolutely.'"

 

 

For Torres, Ramirez's recommendation means more than any other information he has received.

 

"If there's a person in the States that can comment about him and have knowledge about his abilities, it's Alexei, who played with him," Torres said.

 

The runner-up in the American League Rookie of the Year balloting said that the White Sox have had "curiosity" about Viciedo, and when asked, Ramirez always has been upfront with his current team concerning his former teammate. With Ramirez and Contreras already in place and comfortable playing with the White Sox, the South Siders would seem to have an edge in signing the sought after free agent.

 

It's not a clear-cut edge, in Torres' mind. But Viciedo has discussed with Torres how Ramirez went from Pinar del Rio in Cuba directly to becoming the White Sox starting second baseman and contributing. The White Sox showed faith in Ramirez, even when he struggled.

 

Barring another trade, Viciedo would compete with Josh Fields for the starting third base job if signed by the White Sox. Torres believes this young man is ready to contribute at the big league level on an everyday basis, even at 19. He feels Major League teams agree with his assessment.

 

"Otherwise, clubs would not be after him as hard as they are, and we wouldn't be seeing the offers we are seeing," said Torres of Viciedo, who hit .337 with 14 home runs in Cuba at the age of 16. "You don't put something like that in place unless you expect him to contribute immediately."

 

One organization told Torres that they would move their incumbent third baseman to another position, in order to make room for Viciedo. More will be known about Viciedo in two or three days, after he completes the workouts that will include him facing live pitching.

 

There's no doubt in Torres' mind the interest will be even stronger in this apparently special ballplayer.

 

"Many players can be put at third, but not too many are real third basemen," Torres said. "Not only does he have a good bat, but the young man can field. We need to save some of those quotes from the individuals who have questions about him, and let's see what happens at the end of the 2009 season."

Edited November 12, 2008 by GreatScott82

[joeynach]

Because they would ask for more than Fields...probably Fields AND Poreda, in order for this deal to go down.

 

Kenny would counter with Fields AND Broadway/Richard, but they wouldn't bite in all likelihood.

 

The memories are still too fresh about Borchard/Thornton and Morse/Reed/Olivo for Garcia. We've absolutely hosed them the last two trades. I think they will be much more hesitant a third time around....they're not super-desperate to trade him, he's well liked by the organization and his teammates.

 

Those are sunk costs, I doubt a GM would take that into account in doing whats currently best for his team.

[max power]

Miguel Cabrera isn't on that list?

 

Oh, it wasn't in one season. Well. Honestly that is a pretty stupid stat.

Edited November 12, 2008 by MAX

[witesoxfan]

Miguel Cabrera isn't on that list?

 

Oh, it wasn't in one season. Well. Honestly that is a pretty stupid stat.

 

Why?

[max power]

Why?

I don't see any meaning for some of the selectivity.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Those are sunk costs, I doubt a GM would take that into account in doing whats currently best for his team.

True. And besides, the Mariners have a bunch of new people on board anyway. If their scouts say Fields is going to be a very good player then they make that deal. Major League teams listen to their own staff evaluations, not voodoo doctors who would claim a particular team's prospects are all cursed.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If Fields was coming off the 2007 season and NOT this off-season with the injury/defense/pouting issues...then you would probably have a deal. Same with pitchers like Broadway, McCullogh or Egbert a season or two ago.

 

He hasn't sunk to Borchard/Rauch lows yet...2008 will be a huge year for Josh. We'll see how serious he was about getting in shape/rehabilitation as well as how his defense looks when/if he's healthy in the spring. I think KW will be smart enough to hold onto him at least through the middle of March and showcase him out in Arizona.

Disagree with this as well. Fields wouldn't have even been available after '07 for Beltre. Fields was shopped for Miguel Cabrera. Huge difference in ability there.

 

If the Sox sign Viciedo there is a chance Fields could be made available. There could very well be teams out there who salivated over Fields in '07 but found out he was unavailable for anything less than a superstar. Now that the cost is lower and he may be available, the chances of a deal actually increase, not decrease.

 

I also don't buy the idea that Fields' injuries in '07 have weakened his status as a prospect so much that Poreda would have to be included in order to get a solid but unspectacular player in his walk year. Teams are thorough in the way they do business. If a team has scouts they respect that really like Fields and the GM agrees, then they do their research, talk to the player, have him take a physical, and then they get it done.

 

That is not to say there are a ton of teams around that love Josh Fields, but I do think there are some teams that would love to have him and that would be willing to give up some pretty good talent to get him. 23 Major League home runs in 2/3 of a season is nothing to scoff at, even if it was a year ago.

 

Also, Broadway, McCulloch, and Egbert have no business being mentioned anywhere near Fields. Broadway and McCulloch are trash our old regime dragged in and Egbert is a 4th/5th starter prospect. Neither have the type of physical talent that makes people think "future All-Star."

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If you were the Mariners, who would YOU take, lol?

 

Dmitri Young/Michael Cuddyer and Perkins/Blackburn for Beltre.... OR

 

Drum roll please!

 

Josh Fields and Lance Broadway/Russell/McCulloch?

 

I don't think there's any question our neighbors to the north will be able to offer a more alluring package, if that's the route they go in. Dealing one of their starters is a huge risk though, because then they're in the Livan Hernandez/journeyman FA fifth starter's trap again.

 

There's a 50/50 chance that the Twins will line up with Beltre and Orlando Cabrera as the left side of their IF (or Blake).

Ha. If the Twins traded Delmon Young to the Mariners they'd probably ask for both Putz and Beltre, not add another pitcher and ask for a ton less.

 

Delmon Young is a lot like Matt Kemp being that they are both extremely talented young corner OF's who are capable of monster seasons in the future, and are playing well in the Majors, yet fans for some reason think they can pick them up for above average but not great veterans in their walk years.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[caulfield12]

Oops...meant Delmon. Brothers...that one gets me all the time.

 

Well, let's use logic. The Twins would rather hold onto D. Young than Cuddyer, who's much more expensive. Young hasn't reached or come close to his ceiling, Cuddyer has. They already have Span, Gomez and Kubel...along with Young/Cuddyer...to play 3 positions and DH. So one is the odd man out.

 

It really could be either Kubel/Cuddyer (Kubel would be worth a little more, because he's younger/cheaper) and Cuddyer is coming off a pretty serious injury.

 

So Cuddyer and Perkins/Blackburn SHOULD get you Beltre. But do the M's bite on that deal?

 

I don't think the M's give up Putz AND Beltre for that package. Although I guess stranger things have happened.

Edited November 12, 2008 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Disagree with this as well. Fields wouldn't have even been available after '07 for Beltre. Fields was shopped for Miguel Cabrera. Huge difference in ability there.

 

If the Sox sign Viciedo there is a chance Fields could be made available. There could very well be teams out there who salivated over Fields in '07 but found out he was unavailable for anything less than a superstar. Now that the cost is lower and he may be available, the chances of a deal actually increase, not decrease.

 

I also don't buy the idea that Fields' injuries in '07 have weakened his status as a prospect so much that Poreda would have to be included in order to get a solid but unspectacular player in his walk year. Teams are thorough in the way they do business. If a team has scouts they respect that really like Fields and the GM agrees, then they do their research, talk to the player, have him take a physical, and then they get it done.

 

That is not to say there are a ton of teams around that love Josh Fields, but I do think there are some teams that would love to have him and that would be willing to give up some pretty good talent to get him. 23 Major League home runs in 2/3 of a season is nothing to scoff at, even if it was a year ago.

 

Also, Broadway, McCulloch, and Egbert have no business being mentioned anywhere near Fields. Broadway and McCulloch are trash our old regime dragged in and Egbert is a 4th/5th starter prospect. Neither have the type of physical talent that makes people think "future All-Star."

 

I meant a trade of Josh Fields (version 2007) for Beltre 2008. But that's kind of pointless...it's NOT the situation, as you noted.

 

I'm not sure the chances of a Fields trade necessarily increase though, because KW is less likely to give him up at diminished value (look at how he's held onto Anderson) and there are fewer teams desperate to make him their Opening Day 3B, making the talent packages we would be getting in return less attractive.

 

There's two ways of looking at it.

 

I'm not feeling great about Viciedo either...I think it's 50/50 at best, maybe even less, that he signs with the Sox.

Edited November 12, 2008 by caulfield12

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Oops...meant Delmon. Brothers...that one gets me all the time.

 

Well, let's use logic. The Twins would rather hold onto D. Young than Cuddyer, who's much more expensive. Young hasn't reached or come close to his ceiling, Cuddyer has. They already have Span, Gomez and Kubel...along with Young/Cuddyer...to play 3 positions and DH. So one is the odd man out.

 

It really could be either Kubel/Cuddyer (Kubel would be worth a little more, because he's younger/cheaper) and Cuddyer is coming off a pretty serious injury.

 

So Cuddyer and Perkins/Blackburn SHOULD get you Beltre. But do the M's bite on that deal?

 

I don't think the M's give up Putz AND Beltre for that package. Although I guess stranger things have happened.

No prob on the mix-up. There's so many Youngs and Uptons around that it's easy to confuse their names, especially the Young brothers because their first names all start with D.

 

There are rumors the Twins have been shopping Young, just like there are rumors the Sox have been shopping Javy. Now, just as there are idiot sportswriters in Chicago who have no business covering anything at all except for their dicks when they practice mating, like assbag Joe Cowley for instance who for some reason thinks Javy is worth Luis Castillo, I'm sure there are also idiot sportswriters around the Twin Cities who think Delmon Young is worth a pile of crap. I'm not saying you think Young is worth a pile of crap, or that Beltre is a pile of crap, but I think sometimes the articles that come out tend to make it look like so-and-so is available for much cheaper than one would normally expect.

 

If you look at the trade with the Rays, the Twins gave up a very good SP prospect with MLB experience in Garza who projects as a #2-3 or perhaps one day even better, plus a rare commodity in a young defense-first SS who can also hit the baseball in Bartlett, plus a legitimate closing prospect with electric stuff in Eduardo Morlan for Delmon Young, a young UT player in Harris, and a halfway decent OF prospect in Jason Pridie, who seems like he could be another one of those future AAAA thorns in our side. That whole deal was all about Young basically with the others not exactly throw-ins but really not a whole lot more than that either.

 

Keep in mind Delmon, through age 22, has a .292/.326/.413 line with 26 HR in 344 games. That may not seem like a ton of production right now, but 22-year-olds are supposed to be trying to hit in A+ ball, not starting for their second seasons in the Majors and holding their own.

 

When articles come out saying Young is available, think like available for another Matt Garza, or available for Yunel Escobar of the Braves or maybe even Chris Young of the Pads if things there get even worse and they look to go the Marlins route. If the Twins traded Young for basically one year of Beltre plus Type A comp then their fans should light their new GM on fire and put it out with their own piss. That's how bad that deal would be.

 

As for Cuddyer, that could be a good start if the M's were interested. If I'm the M's I don't bite on Cuddyer though, but that's me and I don't like Michael Cuddyer. For a corner OF or DH in the AL, his 2006 season should be closer to the norm for him, not the career-year exception (up to this point anyway).

Edited November 12, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I meant a trade of Josh Fields (version 2007) for Beltre 2008. But that's kind of pointless...it's NOT the situation, as you noted.

 

I'm not sure the chances of a Fields trade necessarily increase though, because KW is less likely to give him up at diminished value (look at how he's held onto Anderson) and there are fewer teams desperate to make him their Opening Day 3B, making the talent packages we would be getting in return less attractive.

 

There's two ways of looking at it.

 

I'm not feeling great about Viciedo either...I think it's 50/50 at best, maybe even less, that he signs with the Sox.

Diminished value for Josh Fields could still be a lot higher than many fans think. He's shown prodigious power at the Major League level and is under team control for a long time. Contrast that to someone like, say, Brandon Wood who hasn't, yet still gets talked about by some like he's the greatest thing yet to come.

[Texsox]

Diminished value for Josh Fields could still be a lot higher than many fans think. He's shown prodigious power at the Major League level and is under team control for a long time. Contrast that to someone like, say, Brandon Wood who hasn't, yet still gets talked about by some like he's the greatest thing yet to come.

 

I keep thinking how most fans thought Maggs would get a $500,000 incentive heavy contract because he wasn't worth much coming off the injury and not being able to run. I'm not comparing, just offering an example of how some GMs think. It's all about projecting what the guy will do from today forward.

[BearSox]

none of us have actually really seen Viciedo play, so I think it's pretty crazy to say already whether that he would or wouldn't play.

[southsider2k5]

There were numerous people discussing that Viciedo could start at 3rd, or at least compete for the job. Cheat posted quite the interesting list over at SSS.

 

 

Are you really confident Viciedo can be added to this list? Really?

 

Without any of us having ever seen the kid play, there is no way of answering that. Really he has to be brought to Spring Training by a team and checked to see what he can do. That is the only way we can know for sure.

[Kyyle23]

Im just going to hope that the Sox are successful at moving the kid in at a pace that isnt overwhelming, as well as giving him a chance to succeed, much in the same fashion that they did with Alexei.

[witesoxfan]

I don't see any meaning for some of the selectivity.

 

It appears to me to be suggesting that generally the only players who come up at that young of an age are those who are so talented that their bat is good enough at a very raw stage in their career that they can come up to the majors and still be a productive hitter, and that as their career goes on, they'll eventually become among the best hitters in the league. Not that Justin Upton is necessarily going to become among the best hitters of all time, because some of those clearly are not, but when you hit .250 and generally considered to be a struggling player, yet post an .816 OPS on the year, you are pretty damn talented. It's also suggesting that it doesn't happen very often.

 

If Viciedo is really that good, then he's going to get an absolutely monstrous deal.

[whitesoxbrian]

I'm really excited about this kid. If Alexei took 1.75 per year for 4 years, then this guy probably deserves 3 or so per year for 5 years. KW loves Fields, though, so I wonder what would happen. Maybe they'll start Fields OD, then if he struggles, work Viciedo into the lineup?

[Balta1701]

I'm really excited about this kid. If Alexei took 1.75 per year for 4 years, then this guy probably deserves 3 or so per year for 5 years. KW loves Fields, though, so I wonder what would happen. Maybe they'll start Fields OD, then if he struggles, work Viciedo into the lineup?

The right way to do this is to treat it like any other signing out of a latin american country. Give him a good sized signing bonus based on what you think his performance is, then put him in your system and try to develop him from there. That way, you still get the arbitration years on him and you still get 2 picks if an when he becomes good and walks as a FA.

[Melissa1334]

Because they would ask for more than Fields...probably Fields AND Poreda, in order for this deal to go down.

no ,way would i trade poreda for him. plus thered be no chance of resigning him/. boras is his agent i think. and i think the sox are going to get outbit for viciendo