Williams Shopping Jermaine

[sircaffey]

Yeah, he got hitters out, but that was his first time around. He still has a lot more to prove to me, and a lot of other people, before I declare him some sort of phenom.

 

Yeah well of course he still has a lot to prove as a SP, I don't disagree there. But his fastball and slider are top notch. And the Poreda/Price comparison really doesn't fit. Price is head and shoulders above Poreda right now.

[caulfield12]

I still think you really need a curve or change to be really effective as a starter.

 

Liriano, although he had a prior injury history in the Giants' organization...demonstrated what happens to pitchers who throw too many of those devastating sliders in the high 80's. The human elbow ligaments can't endure that for very long.

 

That's why Santana is so effective...you mix the change with the fastball and you can get away with even a low 90's fastball...because of the speed differential being well above +10.

 

If you throw everything hard, that's when you run into problems, unless you have exceptional pitches, like Liriano's 87-90 MPH slider in 2006 that was so devastating and short-lived.

[caulfield12]

Yeah well of course he still has a lot to prove as a SP, I don't disagree there. But his fastball and slider are top notch. And the Poreda/Price comparison really doesn't fit. Price is head and shoulders above Poreda right now.

 

Which is why I don't think KW would hesitate to trade Dye and Poreda for Garza and Morlan.

 

Swisher moves to LF, Quentin to his natural RF position.

 

Nix and Getz hold 2B until Beckham comes up in August....Casey Blake is signed for 3B.

 

The Taveras/Broadway or Russell deal goes through.

 

There's your team. Of course, there's the possibility of Hudson, but KW won't go beyond 2 years IMO, not at Hudson's age and with Beckham in the pipeline.

 

We sign Viciedo, Beckham is definitely ticketed for 2B, because Viciedo would be either a corner OF, 3B, DH or 1B.

 

Also, if we were able to get Garza...that would move Vazquez to fifth starter, and Richard to the pen for Poreda's 2nd lefty role behind Thornton.

 

We wouldn't have to trade Jenks, Fields, Anderson, Vazquez, Konerko, Thome, etc.

 

This is a pretty logical set of moves. It's just that the Rays' GM Friedman won't part with Garza, IMO. And we might get outbid for Viciedo...it just depends on how much he would like to be around Ramirez/Contreras/Guillen, and how comfortable he would be in some other markets. Apparently, teams are already promising to move starters or prospects at 3B to make way for him. How much of that is hype/bluster and how much reality, I have no idea.

Edited November 13, 2008 by caulfield12

[Steve9347]

This is a very deceptive thread... is everyone hoping Tampa's GM reads this so he trades us Price?

 

Price is going to be an ace. Middle-of-the-rotation my leaking ass!

[rockren]

The Rays aren't dealing Garza.

 

They didn't plan on turning Delmon Young into Jermaine Dye a year later.

 

Lets get real.

[Steve9347]

The Rays aren't dealing Garza.

 

They didn't plan on turning Delmon Young into Jermaine Dye a year later.

 

Lets get real.

WHAT?!

 

You're ruining everyone's chance to DREAM!

 

Obama's President, and Garza can be a White Sox!

 

Oh, and duh, this is what happens at SoxTalk. People bring up possible scenarios, and then other posters jump in wanting Carl Crawford, Jake Peavy, Matt Garza, etc etc.

[scenario]

Tampa Bay is absolutely LOADED with young pitching.

 

They have 8 pitchers including current staff and MLB ready minor leaguers who could legitimately compete for starter positions next year.

 

That's obscene.

 

So... possible that some of that could be moved

Edited November 13, 2008 by scenario

[rockren]

Tampa Bay is absolutely LOADED with young pitching.

 

They have 8 pitchers including current staff and MLB ready minor leaguers who could legitimately compete for starter positions next year.

 

That's obscene.

 

So... possible that some of that could be moved

 

Agreed.

 

Just not Shields, Kaz or Garza.

[caulfield12]

Dye and Poreda is NOT JUST Dye, far from it.

 

Second, Bartlett was much more important to the Rays than anyone can possibly comprehend unless you watch them everyday and observe all the little things he does to win games....he's a super-smart baseball player.

 

They also got E. Morlan. So it's not so simple as you've boiled it down to.

 

 

[rockren]

WHAT?!

 

You're ruining everyone's chance to DREAM!

 

Obama's President, and Garza can be a White Sox!

 

Oh, and duh, this is what happens at SoxTalk. People bring up possible scenarios, and then other posters jump in wanting Carl Crawford, Jake Peavy, Matt Garza, etc etc.

 

LOL...I know.

 

But the Rays aren't looking to deal Garza. There have been talks about them looking to deal Jackson because there isn't enough room for him going into next year. People just started mentioning Garza out of thin air.

 

[rockren]

Dye and Poreda is NOT JUST Dye, far from it.

 

Second, Bartlett was much more important to the Rays than anyone can possibly comprehend unless you watch them everyday and observe all the little things he does to win games....he's a super-smart baseball player.

 

They also got E. Morlan. So it's not so simple as you've boiled it down to.

 

At the end of the day...that's what the Rays would be doing. When they dealt Delmon, they dealt him to get pitching in return.

[caulfield12]

WHAT?!

 

You're ruining everyone's chance to DREAM!

 

Obama's President, and Garza can be a White Sox!

 

Oh, and duh, this is what happens at SoxTalk. People bring up possible scenarios, and then other posters jump in wanting Carl Crawford, Jake Peavy, Matt Garza, etc etc.

 

Ummm....last time I checked, TB didn't have a closer, unless you consider Wheeler or Howell or Balfour to be closers in waiting? Definitely not Percival anymore.

 

Price will certainly be in the rotation, at least that's the plan.

 

You also have Niemann.

 

So if Poreda can be spun off as another Billy Wagner/Arthur Rhodes, along with Dye...Poreda would be very interesting because he's cheap/affordable, Dye doesn't have an unreasonable contract and he would net them Type A compensation, too.

 

So you have Dye (for at least one year), a first rounder in Poreda you control for six years at least, two Type A compensation picks for losing Dye and you're giving up a 2/3 starter and Ed. Morlan for that?

 

I think it's a fair deal for both teams...and fills two big needs (power/RF) and bullpen/power arm for the Rays at the same time.

Edited November 13, 2008 by caulfield12

[sircaffey]

Wade Davis is a guy I'd like to pick up from TB. I think he's going to be the main trading chip this off season for the Rays. If we could get get E. Jackson and W. Davis, I would be a happy man.

Edited November 13, 2008 by sircaffey

[caulfield12]

LOL...I know.

 

But the Rays aren't looking to deal Garza. There have been talks about them looking to deal Jackson because there isn't enough room for him going into next year. People just started mentioning Garza out of thin air.

 

 

Because Kazmir and Price aren't going anywhere, and Sonnanstine/Jackson/Niemann, etc., are of limited interest to most GM's, unless they're looking for a 5th starter type.

[Dick Allen]

One other thing to keep in mind with Dye, if he plays 2009 with the White Sox and the option is exercised, he'd be a 5 and 10 guy.

[greg775]

think Dye and Poreda for Garza is a bit much, but it's a package that can be worked with, depending on what Tampa sees in Poreda too of course.

 

That's way too much for Garza. I'd hate to see Dye go and keep Paulie and Thome. I'd rather deal Paulie or Thome and keep Dye, realizing the no trade stuff factors in.

Dye is the least annoying of our plodders. He's much more consistent than Paulie/Thome.

Hopefully if Kenny deals Bobby and Dye it's to the same team in a blockbuster. We need to get something REAL GOOD back for those two.

[joejoesox]

story in tomorrow's Tribune says that two NL scouts say Kenny Williams is shopping Jermaine.

 

The Sell High theory.

 

and he will probably have more suitors than Thome or PK.

 

Also says that Jenks could be moved.

 

Sounds like Kenny is trying to be creative and get younger.'

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7366873.story

 

I can see it now, Jenks and Jermaine gone, we pick up a few minor leaguers that aren't MLB ready, and we get Tavaras in CF, moving Swisher to RF

 

3rd place, here we come!

[witesoxfan]

First, Price featured a plus-plus slider in the playoffs. If you didn't see it, you weren't watching. Regarding that, Randy Johnson has had a Hall of Fame career living on a plus-plus fastball and a plus-plus slider. If you don't think Price can be the next Randy Johnson, I say you're crazy (if he doesn't become the next RJ, don't hate me, because the next statement or two clarifies that). There are plenty of other guys he undoubtedly compares favorably to, most of them atleast one scale and probably two less than Randy Johnson, but his top 2 pitches are better than Kazmir's top 2 (which, coincidentally, are fastball and slider). I think David Price has a long, profitable career in this league, with emphasis on profitable.

 

Second, I wanted nothing more than speculation in the potential Dye and Poreda for Garza+ package I said I would work with...Garza is more valuable than Dye simply because he's had more than one good season (including his rookie year) as a starting pitcher, plus he's cheaper, plus he's locked up longer. Including Poreda is not suggesting that I do not like Poreda, but rather I'd have a "bonafide" starter rather than a starting pitching prospect who is just as likely to end up in the pen as he is in the rotation, even if Poreda ends up as a dominant reliever. In suggesting I include Poreda, I'm using him as a starting pitching prospect, which is the necessity for another player, hence the "+". I would never, ever trade Dye and Poreda for Garza straight up, because that would be humiliating and dumb.

 

Third, if you want to call Sonnanstine a poorman's version of Mark Buehrle, go right ahead, but I'll disagree with that statement entirely, simply because I think Sonnanstine profiles more to Josh Fogg than he does Mark Buehrle, in that he knows how to use his stuff, but he's still mediore or bad all at the same time.

 

Fourth, I agree with everything sircaffey has said in this thread. He's just said it in a more condensed manner than I have. I also like Wade Davis as well, especially in regards to the pitching prospect that might be included. If said deal occurred, I'd probably be just fine with it.

 

Finally, greg, Jim Thome was arguably more valuable than Jermaine Dye was this season. He never played mediocre defense - hard to do when you don't play defense - and, with more concrete and baseball evidence, he was the only Sox player this season who batted left handed that was an above average major league hitter. He hit homers, he struck out, or he walked...chance just so happens that Thome got on base for free 95 times this season without hits - which excludes his 34 free runs - and he was arguably the Sox 2nd most valuable player, outside of Quentin. I would damn near guarantee he repeats that feat next year, with much hate from White Sox fans who believe that Thome is not clutch (which he isn't against left handed relievers, because he can't hit left handed pitching, noted by his "mediocre" BB/9 against lefties and his bad K+GIDP/PA against lefties, which was right around 1/3), regardless of his feats in the 15 or 16 inning Anaheim game and his 163rd game heroics. Thome's here to stay, because he won't approve a trade, and because he's a goddamn f***ing stud, and anybody who still questions that needs to look at what he actually did this season for the White Sox.

 

 

 

All I will say is watch the Rays this offseason. Not that the Sox will necessarily have anything to do with it, but I don't see Edwin Jackson on the Sox for anything substantial, but I do see him either as a main cog in the Rays pen or traded. There's no way he's in the rotation next year. I also see the Rays interested in a right fielder, and, as I did predict, JD is available in trades. So just watch out.

Edited November 13, 2008 by witesoxfan

[caulfield12]

I didn't have a chance to see Price pitch at all, living in Thailand...so with that caveat, I can only go with what Wills and their broadcasters said...which, paraphrasing, was more along the lines of his command/control of his offspeed stuff and adding a third pitch (which may or may not be necessary, depending on who you speak with about Price).

 

I do think with the struggles of the P. Hughes, Homer Baileys, Kershaw's, etc., that there are many more hyped/heralded pitching prospects that disappoint than those who go out right away and dominate, like Liriano did in 2006...even Dice-K, a veteran, went through a very long adjustment period his first season.

 

With the White Sox, it's been so long since we've had a rookie pitch really well (I'm not even asking for total domination!)...you might have to go back to about 2-3 months of Kip Wells at the tail end of his first campaign. Buehrle started out of the pen...as he was still having to prove himself. And Garland was so-so for the better part of 3-4 seasons, then morphed into slightly above so-so, lol.

 

 

[LosMediasBlancas]

I don't understand shopping Jenks.

[caulfield12]

Wade Davis (coming into 2008)

 

Position: RHSP

 

Age:22.0 (23 in 2009)

 

Projected 08 Level: AA/AAA

 

Stats:

 

Vero Beach (13 GS) - 78.1 IP 54 H 5 HR 88 K 21 BB 1.84 ERA

 

Montgomery (14 GS) - 80 IP 74 H 3 HR 81 K 30 BB 3.15 ERA

 

Another third of the Montgomery trio, Davis is more polished than McGee in terms of using his non-fastball pitches, although I'm not sure that any of his pitches can match the effectiveness of that McGee heater.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/...ds/?pl_id=31183

Seems like Davis pitched much better in AAA than AA this year...

 

He's the #3 prospect in their system, just named yesterday. Reid Brignac (SS) is 4th. Wonder if they would be willing to part with Desmond Jennings (OF)???

 

 

 

 

[GreatScott82]

I think Dye and Poreda for Garza is a bit much, but it's a package that can be worked with, depending on what Tampa sees in Poreda too of course.

It seems like the 2 guys the Rays are willing to trade are Sonnestine and Jackson. Garza, Kazmir and Price seem to be off limits and rightfully so. However, the one guy i expect the Rays to deal this winter is Crawford. Since they already have enough speed in the lineup and the fact that Crawford is going to make the most money on the team, they would likely prefer to swap him for a power hitter. Perhaps a Dye-Jenks for Crawford-Jackson deal? That would certaintly be a blockbuster- we lose alot, but we fill a gap in the rotation AND we gain speed in the lineup. A deal like this would make both teams better. I think Thorton has the ability to close games, and if he tires down halfway- just give the job to the kid- Poreda!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Garza is probably about as untouchable as they come right now. As has been mentioned a lot around here, the Rays have a small window to contend unless their fans start packing the place. In this economy, and with the history of attendance in Florida, that seems unlikely. The Rays may be able to add some to the payroll, but they're not going to be trading cheap, very effective Major League players to do so.

 

Dye or Jenks could be fits there since the Rays have the holes as well as the prospects to trade, but if it is a Dye deal we might have to take on another contract. I brought up Chad Bradford before and I think he could be a possibility in a Dye deal as well as Edwin Jackson. The Rays will unload Jackson's salary before paying him arbitration because they have Price waiting in the wings, so that's a couple million or so. If you add Bradford then it might get it up to around $5-6M that the Rays would be sending over. Regardless, I think we'd have to get creative.

 

This is what I think would be the best TB deal for both parties:

 

TB trades about $11-12M

Dan Wheeler ($3.2M in '09, $3.5M in '10, $4M TO in '11 w/ $1M buyout)

Chad Bradford ($3.5M in '09)

Edwin Jackson ($3-4M in arbitration?)

Wade Davis (minimum)

Jeff Niemann (minimum)

 

Sox trade about $18M

Jermaine Dye ($11.5M in '09, $12M MO in '10 w/ $1M buyout)

Octavio Dotel ($6M in '09)

Ehren Wassermann (minimum)

 

Why this works for Tampa: The Rays make two big improvements while only adding around $6-$7M in payroll. They get their DH/LF depending on park and RH #3/#5 hitter to put either in front of or behind Pena. Dotel gives them a closer if they want or he acts as a set-up man for Balfour (if they're leaning that direction). They hold on to Morlan as an added righty in their pen and break him in as a 6th inning guy. Wassermann gives them that sidearmer/slinger deceptive look they seem to love coming out of the pen if he makes the team. They also ditch Wheeler's contract. Meanwhile, this fits their short window of opportunity. If TB wants to win the WS, they're going to have to do it in the next two years unless their fans start showing up. Dotel is a FA after '09 and will bring them Type A comp. Dye is another high-probability Type A after '09, especially as a DH, or else he is on board below-market in 2010.

 

Why this works for the Sox: This lets them trade Javy and gives them 3 SP to battle for two spots, with Niemann having the upside of a closer if he doesn't work out in the rotation. Bradford is solid and Wheeler is pretty much what you take in order to get a better package. He'd be a fine fit for the 6th inning and is someone the Sox can afford but the Rays probably won't be able to pretty soon.

 

Sox bullpen:

Jenks - 9th ®

Linebrink - 8th ®

Thornton - 8th (L)

Bradford - 7th ®

Richard/Poreda/Logan - 7th (L)

Wheeler - 6th ®

Carrasco/other SP candidate LR

 

If the Sox then turn around and trade Jenks for other needs, and if they don't get back a reliever in the process, the bullpen becomes:

 

Thornton - 9th (L)

Linebrink - 8th ®

Richard/Poreda/Logan - 8th (L)

Bradford - 7th ®

Poreda/Richard/Logan - 7th (L)

Wheeler - 6th ®

Carrasco/other SP candidate as a long reliever

 

That would still be fine with me if we got back some pretty sweet prospects in a Jenks deal.

[beautox]

If the sox are shopping Jermaine i really hope Cincinnati has their ears open, they've got a great system and match up very very well with us.

 

If we need a project pitcher why not go after Homer Bailey if they're ready to give up on him. Chris Dickerson is another interesting name, hes got a quick stroke through the zone and came up through their system playing CF he had a piece of bone removed from his left ankle for a stress fracture he should be ready for spring training.

 

between AAA and The show he hit 17HR and stole 31 bases while being caught 11 times. To me he looks like a late bloomer ala Randy Winn, but with a bit more pop. If KW could acquire him he would fill our need of CF and he could easily bat lead off; Chris would also be 27 by opening day i think he would fit well with our core and its current window. In '07 Baseball America Rated Dickerson as the best out of the following categories in the reds organizaton: fastest baserunner, best athlete and best defensive outfielder.

 

Here are his #'s at AAA .287/.384/.479 .862OPS, in the show .304/.413/.608 1.021OPS in 102 AB

 

Ideally Dye for Homer and Dickerson; if they're not willing to give up on Bailey, Frazier or Valaika would be a nice pull.

 

CF Dickerson L

2B Nix/Getz R/L

RF Quentin R

DH Thome L

1B Konerko R

LF Swisher S

SS Ramirez R

C AJP L

3B Fields R

 

I think KW will go into '09 hoping Nix/Getz & Fields develop ala Ramirez & Quentin, and i can see Slayer up by September. It should be very interesting.

 

If KW can get both Bailey and Dickerson that would be huge, Id advocate keeping Javy then.

 

MB

JD

GF

JV

HB

 

Keeping richard in the pen to fulfill logan roles, and possibly even bringing up Poreda into the mix just to keep it interesting for Ozzie.

 

Jenks

Linebrink

Dotel

Thornton

Russell

Poreda

Richard

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Didn't Bailey lose a ton off his FB? For a guy who was always a thrower, not a pitcher, that would scare me.