Swish Traded to the Yankees

[caulfield12]

It's not necessarily that they offered less but they offered packages that Kenny didn't like nearly as much. They could have offered very talented players who are in the lower minors, offered worse contracts with more talented players, or tried to get packages built up where the Sox would be including other players, but when push came to shove, this was the deal Kenny felt was best for the organization.

 

I guess I didn't state it as clearly as I wanted to...I guess since I usually try to think from KW's perspective, that the offers were LESS or not as good, for the reasons you stated. Most of the pundits and writers/reporters are bagging on that trade already, I would be really interested to see what other offers were on the table (supposedly) and if many of the board members would have preferred those deals to the one that was made.

[santo=dorf]

It's pretty obvious Jeremy was paying more attention to the box score than watching the actual games.

 

I agree we may have overpaid for Carl the second time in the sense that perhaps we could've offered less but not because it appears he didn't do anything for us, but because he wasn't having a good year and he was out of shape.

 

Seriously how could you forget him off the 2005 team?

Edited November 17, 2008 by santo=dorf

[caulfield12]

http://www.southsidesox.com/2008/11/14/661...ockingly-low-on

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2008/11/13/660...-trade-transcri

 

Gotta love those smart-a** White Sox experts who always think they know more than KW about putting a baseball team together.

 

You would have thought we were coming off another 72-90 season with this guy's sarcastic attitude. By the way, I'm sure he has probably been there about 90% of the time to admit when he was wrong as KW's deals have usually turned out for the best, especially when there are "sleeper" players involved that are undervalued/under the radar/struggling/injured.

Edited November 17, 2008 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

http://www.southsidesox.com/2008/11/14/661...ockingly-low-on

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2008/11/13/660...-trade-transcri

 

Gotta love those smart-a** White Sox experts who always think they know more than KW about putting a baseball team together.

 

You would have thought we were coming off another 72-90 season with this guy's sarcastic attitude. By the way, I'm sure he had been there about 90% of the time to admit when he was wrong as KW's deals have usually turned out for the best, especially when there are "sleeper" players involved that are undervalued/under the radar/struggling/injured.

 

 

LOL, Im looking forward to GHC's reply

[Chisoxfn]

http://www.southsidesox.com/2008/11/14/661...ockingly-low-on

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2008/11/13/660...-trade-transcri

 

Gotta love those smart-a** White Sox experts who always think they know more than KW about putting a baseball team together.

 

You would have thought we were coming off another 72-90 season with this guy's sarcastic attitude. By the way, I'm sure he has probably been there about 90% of the time to admit when he was wrong as KW's deals have usually turned out for the best, especially when there are "sleeper" players involved that are undervalued/under the radar/struggling/injured.

Those were two utterly horrendous articles. The logic isn't even there. Clearly Swisher was the best player in the deal, but there are a lot of other things to evaluate when making a trade and it is laughable how people continue to ignore the job Kenny and his scouts have done when it comes to trading for former top prospects (Marquez wasn't a true top prospect, but he's definitely a prospect).

[DBAHO]

You realistically can't look at the deal until the end of next season to see;

 

1 - How Swisher does with Yankees

2 - How the prospects the Sox acquired have done

3 - How the Sox have used the money that they have saved by dumping Swisher's 22/3 contract.

[Steve9347]

You realistically can't look at the deal until the end of next season to see;

 

1 - How Swisher does with Yankees

2 - How the prospects the Sox acquired have done

3 - How the Sox have used the money that they have saved by dumping Swisher's 22/3 contract.

Like almost any trade, the winner cannot be decided immediately.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Steve9347

[eickevinmorris]

Those were two utterly horrendous articles. The logic isn't even there. Clearly Swisher was the best player in the deal, but there are a lot of other things to evaluate when making a trade and it is laughable how people continue to ignore the job Kenny and his scouts have done when it comes to trading for former top prospects (Marquez wasn't a true top prospect, but he's definitely a prospect).

It isn't as though Kenny isn't prone to mistakes. Cunningham for Richar, Cortes/Lumsden for MacDougal, Contreras extension, Garland for Cabrera, etc. It's easy to be skeptical of this deal because, as of now, on the surface, it was a terrible one. Swisher was not stopping us from signing anyone, save CC (which obviously won't happen). If we're dumping salary, why not get rid of Dye? His defense is absolute trash and his bat is due to cool down any time now. He'd fetch more value than Swisher and save more salary. The trade looks better in people's eyes because the organization pulled their usual "toss player X under the bus" routine.

 

Marquez is a prospect in that he plays minor league baseball, but it'd be foolish to consider him in the same mold as our other famous "failed top prospects" on the roster: Floyd, Danks (to a much lesser extent, though he had his fair share of skeptics), Quentin (who really was more undervalued than anything). He doesn't have that type of talent, and his ceiling at this point is probably that of a swingman.

 

Don't forget we needlessly tossed in Texeira, sweet move.

 

[chunk23]

Garland for Cabrera was not a mistake trade at all. We traded a type B (Garland) for a type A (Cabrera). Moreover it opened up the rotation for Floyd and Danks, one of whom would not be in the rotation otherwise.

 

This trade may be a mistake, but KW does seem to have a great eye for pitching prospects.

 

It seems above all that this trade was motivated by personality. Swish pissed everyone off and even more so seemed to just be really really annoying in the clubhouse. Sending him to the Yankees is like sending a punk kid to boot camp. Honestly I think it's hilarious. He's not going to get along with them well.

[ThunderBolt]

It isn't as though Kenny isn't prone to mistakes. Cunningham for Richar, Cortes/Lumsden for MacDougal, Contreras extension, Garland for Cabrera, etc.

You do realize that none of the deals you just mentioned had any negative effect on us, right? You’re talking in terms of future potential, Kenny deals with the here and now.

[chunk23]

You do realize that none of the deals you just mentioned had any negative effect on us, right? You’re talking in terms of future potential, Kenny deals with the here and now.

 

We will probably regret dealing Cunningham. Just a hunch.

 

However, because we draft so late and often poorly it makes sense to use the prospects as trade chips because they most likely won't become contributors (McCullough I'm looking at you).

[rmiastk]

Those were two utterly horrendous articles. The logic isn't even there. Clearly Swisher was the best player in the deal, but there are a lot of other things to evaluate when making a trade and it is laughable how people continue to ignore the job Kenny and his scouts have done when it comes to trading for former top prospects (Marquez wasn't a true top prospect, but he's definitely a prospect).

 

Wow. The analysis is spot on. The Sox DID sell shockingly low on Swisher, AND gave up the best pitcher in the deal on top of everything. The chances of Swisher rebounding are much better than any of these former Yankee scrubs ever amounting to anything.

 

There's a reason why South Side Sox is regularly linked to by other, respected publications. It's a great site with extensive analysis and scouting predictions, which is more than I can say about Sox Talk. I'm sure I will be kicked off now, so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves.

 

 

[ThunderBolt]

We will probably regret dealing Cunningham. Just a hunch.

 

However, because we draft so late and often poorly it makes sense to use the prospects as trade chips because they most likely won't become contributors (McCullough I'm looking at you).

Cunningham’s’ a ballplayer, good speed , decent bad, and a solid glove. Kind of an Aaron “the Legend” Rowand lite. But he was very much expendable at atime, when what the organization needed was a second basemen of the future. That second basemen was Danny Richer. Unfortunately, for Richar not only did Alexei Ramirez emerge sooner then we all expected, but Chris Getz began raking in the upper minors. Making Richar too expendable.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Thunderbolt

[sircaffey]

Marquez is a prospect in that he plays minor league baseball, but it'd be foolish to consider him in the same mold as our other famous "failed top prospects" on the roster: Floyd, Danks (to a much lesser extent, though he had his fair share of skeptics), Quentin (who really was more undervalued than anything). He doesn't have that type of talent, and his ceiling at this point is probably that of a swingman.

 

That's true on Marquez. He's no where near the talent of those 3. People look at this trade and expect Marquez to be the "reclamation project" and the key to the deal in KW eyes. I don't think that's the case. I believe Betemit is. Marquez might turn out to be a back end SP, but I think KW is gambling for Betemit and not Marquez.

[Dick Allen]

Wow. The analysis is spot on. The Sox DID sell shockingly low on Swisher, AND gave up the best pitcher in the deal on top of everything. The chances of Swisher rebounding are much better than any of these former Yankee scrubs ever amounting to anything.

 

There's a reason why South Side Sox is regularly linked to by other, respected publications. It's a great site with extensive analysis and scouting predictions, which is more than I can say about Sox Talk. I'm sure I will be kicked off now, so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves.

Anytime you get get out of a $22 million obligation with a guy who was horrendous and couldn't beat out DeWayne Wise, anything you get is gravy. Texiera probably will be nothing. I agree the 2 Yankee minor leaguers are crap. Betimet may be able to help. Swisher is just bad. Holding on hoping against your better judgement that Swisher can turn it around just so your trade won't be thought of as wrong, bad or stupid, is exactly wrong, bad and stupid. The White Sox will use the financial savings on major league players. Players who will have a position to play. Obviously, if Swisher proves last season was just a fluke, KW got hoodwinked. I think that's a longshot.

 

I've been critical of KW. I'm not like a lot of people on this board who think every move he makes has to be gold because he's the great KW, but this move makes a lot of sense for the White Sox. If Swisher shows next season he still can't play, your stuck with about $16 million for 2 years and a contract that in unmovable unless you eat most of it.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Dick Allen

[chunk23]

That's true on Marquez. He's no where near the talent of those 3. People look at this trade and expect Marquez to be the "reclamation project" and the key to the deal in KW eyes. I don't think that's the case. I believe Betemit is. Marquez might turn out to be a back end SP, but I think KW is gambling for Betemit and not Marquez.

 

Betemit really did turn things around when he got glasses and started wearing them full time instead of just at night.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Really? People think of Everett as a crucial part of that team? I forget he was even on it. I'd say there's no way he was one of the dozen most important players on the team. He was probably the worst regular on the team. That year was one of the highlights of my life but I sometimes resent the fact that every single player on the team is now beloved.

 

I am utterly and completely mystified how in the blue hell that you could possibly forget our regular season #3 hitter was even on the team. Ridiculous.

[DBAHO]

Wow. The analysis is spot on. The Sox DID sell shockingly low on Swisher, AND gave up the best pitcher in the deal on top of everything. The chances of Swisher rebounding are much better than any of these former Yankee scrubs ever amounting to anything.

 

There's a reason why South Side Sox is regularly linked to by other, respected publications. It's a great site with extensive analysis and scouting predictions, which is more than I can say about Sox Talk. I'm sure I will be kicked off now, so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves.

 

This I don't agree with at all.

 

The Sox will teach Marquez a cutter I would have thought, and with the impact it's had one some of the pitchers we've had (Danks and Loaiza to name a couple), who knows what that will possibly do to Marquez's numbers as a whole.

 

Also I don't know you can definitely classify Teixeira as a better relief prospect than Nunez, by hey, that's just me.

[southsider2k5]

Wow. The analysis is spot on. The Sox DID sell shockingly low on Swisher, AND gave up the best pitcher in the deal on top of everything. The chances of Swisher rebounding are much better than any of these former Yankee scrubs ever amounting to anything.

 

There's a reason why South Side Sox is regularly linked to by other, respected publications. It's a great site with extensive analysis and scouting predictions, which is more than I can say about Sox Talk. I'm sure I will be kicked off now, so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves.

 

Yeah, we even let you on!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Wow. The analysis is spot on. The Sox DID sell shockingly low on Swisher, AND gave up the best pitcher in the deal on top of everything. The chances of Swisher rebounding are much better than any of these former Yankee scrubs ever amounting to anything.

 

There's a reason why South Side Sox is regularly linked to by other, respected publications. It's a great site with extensive analysis and scouting predictions, which is more than I can say about Sox Talk. I'm sure I will be kicked off now, so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves.

Just because you put up some video of prospects and make your little predictions doesn't mean you can get away with writing a bunch of amateur horses***. Case in point: The Swisher Trade Transcript. Any single person finding that amusing or even roughly based in truth should consult their nearest chiropractor and have their head removed from his or her ass. Anyone can post video and do write-ups, and I'm glad they do it at SSS, but the fact that they do it does not validate their opinions. Kenny Williams and his scouts have proven themselves, and they actually know what the f*** they are doing, so if they think the players they received back made for the best possible package of all those offered, then I will give them the benefit of the doubt. I too could look at Marquez's K/9 last year and b****, but I already learned my lesson after b****ing about Gavin Floyd in '07. Real GM >>> Armchair GM.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Yeah, we even let you on!

You should let him stay so he can continue to get blasted for siding with armchair GM's and statsheets over the opinions of actual, proven baseball people.

[Disco72]

Wow. The analysis is spot on. The Sox DID sell shockingly low on Swisher, AND gave up the best pitcher in the deal on top of everything. The chances of Swisher rebounding are much better than any of these former Yankee scrubs ever amounting to anything.

 

There's a reason why South Side Sox is regularly linked to by other, respected publications. It's a great site with extensive analysis and scouting predictions, which is more than I can say about Sox Talk. I'm sure I will be kicked off now, so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves.

 

There's really no reason to bash SoxTalk like that, especially when the two websites serve different purposes. Don't worry, you'll have to do more than that to get kicked off! However, hopefully you stick around and engage in the debate instead of a "hit and run."

 

Many of us thought that Swisher was worth more than that, but if the reports are true that other teams were interested, we have to assume that KW wants to win and thought this was the best deal for the Sox (as others discussed earlier in this thread). Based on production vs costs in 2008, Swisher is not worth much at all, but we all wanted to get back at least close to what was "paid" for him (in prospects and talent). That leaves his value in terms of future potential production...if teams were so sure that Swisher was going to rebound, I'm sure somebody could have beat what the Yankees gave up for him.

 

It's also not true that freeing up Swisher's cash only helps in bidding for CC Sabathia (or a CC-like player) as another poster mentioned. Swisher's was money without a position that can be used to sign any FA. I'd gladly "dump" Swisher if it freed up money for a Furcal-like addition that makes sense for the team's structure rather than pay Swisher to sit on the bench and hopefully rebound.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

This I don't agree with at all.

 

The Sox will teach Marquez a cutter I would have thought, and with the impact it's had one some of the pitchers we've had (Danks and Loaiza to name a couple), who knows what that will possibly do to Marquez's numbers as a whole.

 

Also I don't know you can definitely classify Teixeira as a better relief prospect than Nunez, by hey, that's just me.

From the scouting reports and write-ups I've seen posted here and elsewhere, it appears Marquez, in the span of one year, went from the #7 prospect in the Yankees' system (which would have included Hughes, Kennedy, and Chamberlain among others) and a potential future #2 starter to a nobody who sucks and isn't worth the letters on the back of his jersey. So what happened that one year that took him from a very good prospect in a great system to a nobody? A horrible year and a mild shoulder strain, of course. Yeah, there's no way Kenny saw anything in this kid...

[ChiSox_Sonix]

It isn't as though Kenny isn't prone to mistakes. Cunningham for Richar, Cortes/Lumsden for MacDougal, Contreras extension, Garland for Cabrera, etc. It's easy to be skeptical of this deal because, as of now, on the surface, it was a terrible one. Swisher was not stopping us from signing anyone, save CC (which obviously won't happen). If we're dumping salary, why not get rid of Dye? His defense is absolute trash and his bat is due to cool down any time now. He'd fetch more value than Swisher and save more salary. The trade looks better in people's eyes because the organization pulled their usual "toss player X under the bus" routine.

 

I'm getting really sick of people claiming Garland for Cabrera was a bad move.

 

-Garland performed at his usual mediocre nothing to complain about but nothing to blow you away 4th starter self

-Garland is a Type B FA who'll net the Angels 1 pick; Cabrera is a Type A and will net us 2

-Cabrera did not have a bad year for us and it was better than what Uribe would have done

-Trading Garland allowed Floyd and Danks to land a spot in the rotation and we saw how that worked out

 

I'm having a really hard time to claim a "loss" for KW here

[Disco72]

I'm getting really sick of people claiming Garland for Cabrera was a bad move.

 

-Garland performed at his usual mediocre nothing to complain about but nothing to blow you away 4th starter self

-Garland is a Type B FA who'll net the Angels 1 pick; Cabrera is a Type A and will net us 2

-Cabrera did not have a bad year for us and it was better than what Uribe would have done

-Trading Garland allowed Floyd and Danks to land a spot in the rotation and we saw how that worked out

 

I'm having a really hard time to claim a "loss" for KW here

 

Frankly, Cabrera outperformed Garland this year anyway, even if we don't account for the picks and the fact that Cabrera > Uribe and Floyd > Garland. It is baffling that people continue to think we "lost" that trade.