Swish Traded to the Yankees

[Milkman delivers]

In my baseball world I trust KW with any moves he makes.Hell, I hated the Swisher trade when we brought him but I still trusted that KW judgement was better than mine.Even though that didnt work out KW IMO is in the top 3 of GM's in all of sports so I expect that one maybe two of these guys he brought over from the Yanks are going to produce well for us and make us forget about Swish,Sweeney,Gio,DLS and that whole situation.

 

No way. I like him and all, but no way.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Thanks.

 

The sox scouts have done a good job of recognizing talent that hadn't been consistent [Danks, Floyd, Thornton, et al] and making a run at them when they became available for a decent price in terms of talent. Now that the draft scouting department seems to have improved [with Poreda, Beckham etc looking like impact players], KW doesn't have to rely on project players making big improvement jumps. Marquez and Nunez seem like the project types, who need some refining and work before they can help the sox. Yet the sox seem to be striking more of a balance on how they get their players, through draft, big and small trades, and free agents.

Since about 2003, Danks, Masset, and Gio were the only acquisitions prospect/project-wise that I can think of who were actually rated very well by publications current at the time. Danks has been awesome, Masset was mostly a bust although he should fit as a LR type eventually, and Gio was bombed in Oakland, although he's still young and may end up being a good pitcher. So aside from Danks, most of our success came from deals that were said to be non-events or bad for the Sox. We picked up Uribe the bust for Miles, Thornton the bust for Borchard, Floyd the bust for Freddy, etc. I trust our guys, and yes, it appears we're improving quite a bit in the draft and through international free agency - I mean how could we not improve after discovering the scandal and dumping those assholes?

Edited November 15, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[shipps]

No way. I like him and all, but no way.

 

Who would you say is far and away better than him then?

[NCsoxfan]

I'm a little surprised that Kenny didn't try to include Fields and another prospect for Cano as well...

 

Who knows, maybe he did and got rebuffed.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

No way. I like him and all, but no way.

Who is better then?

 

Kenny hasn't made any huge Kazmir-for-Zambrano type errors and he's gotten a lot of worth out of his poor minor league organization through trade. He's made some mistakes, like Cunningham for Richar and Daniel Cortes for MacDougal, but he hasn't given up anyone who has gone on to become very, very good, at least thus far. He's made some of the best moves in baseball over the last few years, most of them smaller at first.

[Milkman delivers]

Who would you say is far and away better than him then?

 

In baseball alone, I'd have to say Epstein (as much as I hate to admit it), Gillick, and Schuerholz. I guess Schuerholz no longer counts, but then arguments can easily be made for Jocketty and Stoneman. That's just off the top of my head, and that's just in baseball. To say he's a top 3 GM in sports is quite a stretch and very Hawk Harrelson-esque.

[Disco72]

I agree Williams isn't anywhere close to being a Top 3 GM in sports, but Stoneman is no longer GM for the Halos. It's Tony Reagins.

 

I'd further argue that Stoneman's resistance to trading prospects probably cost the Halos at least one more WS appearance and/or victory. I also don't think Epstein has been that great, especially since he has the financial slack to cover some of his high priced mistakes.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

In baseball alone, I'd have to say Epstein (as much as I hate to admit it), Gillick, and Schuerholz. I guess Schuerholz no longer counts, but then arguments can easily be made for Jocketty and Stoneman. That's just off the top of my head, and that's just in baseball. To say he's a top 3 GM in sports is quite a stretch and very Hawk Harrelson-esque.

Missed the "sports" part. Yeah I wouldn't say that, but in baseball? He could be.

 

Just off the top of my head, Gillick is the one who made the Floyd deal. Kenny hasn't had a blunder like that yet.

 

Jocketty is possible.

 

Stoneman? What about that GMJ contract? That was one of the worst FA deals over the last 3-4 years, possibly more. A career 4th OF coming off a steriod-aided career year in the best hitting park in baseball, and he gets that kind of security? Everybody knew that was a horrible deal. The only recent deals off the top of my head that I can think of that were as bad or worse are Pierre, Alfonso Soriano, and Barry Zito. Kenny has always been pretty smart with Jerry's money. His biggest screw-up was probably Contreras, but Contreras pitched well in '06 and the first half of '08, and could come back mid-season '09. Then his deal is up. Plus if he's healthy it's a below-market contract.

 

Edit: Jason Schmidt's contract was another one. Still, GMJ's deal is right up there near the top.

 

Billy Beane is pretty darn good for running a small market team. I'd put him up there as well.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[santo=dorf]

Stoneman has handed out some really silly contracts, but has shown a really good strength in building bullpens, including other teams' bullpens by leaving 4 catchers on the 40 man at one time and losing guys like Jenks, Turnbow, and Joel Peralta.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Stoneman has handed out some really silly contracts, but has shown a really good strength in building bullpens, including other teams' bullpens by leaving 4 catchers on the 40 man at one time and losing guys like Jenks, Turnbow, and Joel Peralta.

Yep. His problem was that he wasn't very good at identifying the players he thought would contribute in a big way and then dealing those he thought wouldn't. Instead he pretty much held onto everyone as was noted above. Not a lot of trades for him despite a great farm system.

[Milkman delivers]

Missed the "sports" part. Yeah I wouldn't say that, but in baseball? He could be.

 

Just off the top of my head, Gillick is the one who made the Floyd deal. Kenny hasn't had a blunder like that yet.

 

Jocketty is possible.

 

Stoneman? What about that GMJ contract? That was one of the worst FA deals over the last 3-4 years, possibly more. A career 4th OF coming off a steriod-aided career year in the best hitting park in baseball, and he gets that kind of security? Everybody knew that was a horrible deal. The only recent deals off the top of my head that I can think of that were as bad or worse are Pierre, Alfonso Soriano, and Barry Zito. Kenny has always been pretty smart with Jerry's money. His biggest screw-up was probably Contreras, but Contreras pitched well in '06 and the first half of '08, and could come back mid-season '09. Then his deal is up. Plus if he's healthy it's a below-market contract.

 

Edit: Jason Schmidt's contract was another one. Still, GMJ's deal is right up there near the top.

 

Billy Beane is pretty darn good for running a small market team. I'd put him up there as well.

 

Agreed completely with the bold part.

 

I was also going to include Beane, but I didn't feel like dealing with the hundreds of posters who just simply hate the man. Like I said, it was all off the top of my head. I'd probably say KW is in or near the top three in baseball, but definitely not sports.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Agreed completely with the bold part.

 

I was also going to include Beane, but I didn't feel like dealing with the hundreds of posters who just simply hate the man. Like I said, it was all off the top of my head. I'd probably say KW is in or near the top three in baseball, but definitely not sports.

Beane really does a great job. I think he gets the hate because people make him the target of poor and/or stupid Baseball Prospectus articles and predictions, plus they think he somehow allows or has allowed his players to freely use steriods.

 

The BP stuff, he doesn't operate like that. He looks for undervalued players and likes players with plate discipline, just like every team in baseball. He has some great baseball people over there and it's not like his scouts sit there running numbers and formulas, they go to the games and watch the players like everyone else. And about the roids, it's hard to say who did and did not know, and who did and did not "look the other way," but I think the whole thing is a lot bigger than an east or west coast thing so it's stupid to point fingers at one front office guy and let another front office guy off the hook.

 

When you just look at what Beane does, you have to admit that like Schuerholz, he usually ends up getting the right value out of the right players at the right times. He works under a lot of restrictions over there. And part of the reason Kenny is so great at his job is that Kenny is very good at evaluating players as well and also has to do it under restrictions. Whereas Kenny doesn't always sell off his players at the right time, he cannot always do that because he has to contend. Both operate under restrictions in the draft as you usually don't see either team nabbing top Boras guys who fall for huge amounts and Major League contracts. They instead have to look for the right guys at the right prices.

 

Basically the main differences between the two are the Kenny gets higher payroll but can't afford to just dump a guy whenever he wants because that could seriously affect ticket sales, no can he afford to completely rebuild. Kenny has to contend and keep the fans coming post-2005 while the pressure on Beane isn't as serious. And the biggest difference is the quality of the farm system. The Sox haven't put the kind of effort into it that they need to, but that appears to be changing. Both are great GM's though, and I think if you put Kenny in Beane's situation he'd do very well, just like if you put Beane in Kenny's situation he'd do very well.

 

*Edit: Also about Epstein who you mentioned earlier, I don't really consider Epstein because he doesn't have the type of restrictions that other guys have to work under. He's really got it all. He can afford to make dumb signings like Julio Lugo and not be hurt because of it. He can afford to spend a s***load on payroll and free agents, plus sign top prospects who fall in the draft, plus sink lots of money into scouting and player development, plus negotiate with Boras clients, plus spend $50M just to negotiate with Daisuke Matsuzaka. The only requirements are that he must contend every year with the Yankees, but with all those windows open, I think there are definitely other GM's capable of succeeding in that situation.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[shipps]

What can I say,Iam a huge KW fan and have great confidence and a great deal of respect for the man.Its all a matter of opinion anyways on who are the best GM's because there are so many factors you have to take in.

[ThunderBolt]

If you go with Anderson then that means you're going with an Anderson/Owens competition in ST, which is particularly frightening because all Jerry Owens has to do is steal one base and stay healthy through camp in order for Ozzie to hand him the job outright.

While I agree that Owens in center is a truly frightening (and realistic) possibility it’s important to realize that we have enough depth in the organization to make sure this doesn’t happen. For one, Alexei can play a mean center, and Betemit and Nix can slide right over to short and fill the void. D-Wheezey can also play center, not an ideal choice, but better then Owens. I agree that something needs to be done about the organizations slavish fixiation with JO, but i can't see what unless someone goes Nancy Kerrigan on his groin. I see us picking up a veteran OF with a decent bat like a, Randy Winn, and sticking him on the bench just in case Anderson doesn’t come through.

[scenario]

Although I'm not excited about the possibility of Owens in CF, I don't think he's the worst option in the world either.

 

Yes, he has zero power, but....

 

He has a career .291 BA with a .359 OBP in the minors.

 

If he's able to get close to that at the major league level, then hey.... I'd like more but... I wouldn't complain about that.

 

In regards to his much maligned defense (throwing mostly)... keep in mind that during his time up here in 2007, he was playing with an injured left shoulder. (He ran into a wall in Charlotte earlier in year chasing down a flyball.) So, what we saw throwing wise was not and should not be considered the limit of his capability.

 

The key advantage of having Owens play is that, if he is able to get on base at a decent clip, his speed would be a revelation for this lineup.

Edited November 15, 2008 by scenario

[fathom]

In regards to his much maligned defense (throwing mostly)... keep in mind that during his time up here in 2007, he was playing with an injured left shoulder. (He ran into a wall in Charlotte earlier in year chasing down a flyball.) So, what we saw throwing wise was not and should not be considered the limit of his capability.

 

Saw him play in the minors this year, and his arm was just as bad. Jerry Owens is not a starting outfielder in the majors.

[ptatc]

I think the money is being saved to make a run at Orlando Hudson. A 2B guy that will bring defense and a leadoff hitter. You can then go with fields at third and look for a CF or give it to defense and Anderson.

Edited November 15, 2008 by ptatc

[scenario]

Jerry Owens is not a starting outfielder in the majors.

 

Well... during the next few months we'll see if KW agrees with you.

 

I'd prefer an upgrade myself, especially if we go young at 3B and 2B. I don't think it would be smart to experiment at all 3 positions.

Edited November 15, 2008 by scenario

[Dick Allen]

I expect at least 2 of the 3 seemingly open positions to be filled by expensive veterans. I will be the most shocked human in the world if KW doesn't acquire a legitimate leadoff hitter this offseason.

[Jeremy]

Evaluating GMs is really subjective. I strongly disagree with the idea that Kenny is a top three executive in baseball, let alone all of sports. I just don't see eye to eye with the guy. I vehemently disagree with many of his moves, probably due to his distaste for players that come through his own minor league system. I'd without question rather have all the following guys as a GM: Beane, Epstein, Cashman, Josh Byrnes, Andrew Friedman, Doug Melvin, Mark Shapiro, and Shuerholz.

 

Kenny hasn't given up a superstar yet in one of the deals where he moved a young player but that doesn't mean he hasn't made obvious mistakes in those types of deals. Kip Wells put up consecutive 200 IP seasons with ERAs well below the league average after we traded him for a guy who contributed absolutely nothing to the team. Chris Young hasn't really broken out yet but he's been a lot better than anyone we've had in CF the last two seasons and he's still just 25 years old. We pretty much gave Jon Rauch away and he's been a pretty useful reliever the past several seasons.

 

 

[ThunderBolt]

Well... during the next few months we'll see if KW agrees with you.

 

I'd prefer an upgrade myself, especially if we go young at 3B and 2B. I don't think it would be smart to experiment at all 3 positions.

Using the 162 game OPB and Slg averages of the “old” core and using the minor league numbers of the “new” core (Fields, Anderson, Nix, Getz) I came out with two different lineups (assuming a Betemit/Fields and Getz/Nix platoon) that both score about 5.5 runs per game (the one with Fields and Nix being the better of the two by about .016 runs), which isn’t that terrible. I think we'll get an upgrade in CF, but i'm actually kind of fascinated to see how this young team could work itself out.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Thunderbolt

[ILMOU]

Evaluating GMs is really subjective. I strongly disagree with the idea that Kenny is a top three executive in baseball, let alone all of sports. I just don't see eye to eye with the guy. I vehemently disagree with many of his moves, probably due to his distaste for players that come through his own minor league system. I'd without question rather have all the following guys as a GM: Beane, Epstein, Cashman, Josh Byrnes, Andrew Friedman, Doug Melvin, Mark Shapiro, and Shuerholz.

 

Kenny hasn't given up a superstar yet in one of the deals where he moved a young player but that doesn't mean he hasn't made obvious mistakes in those types of deals. Kip Wells put up consecutive 200 IP seasons with ERAs well below the league average after we traded him for a guy who contributed absolutely nothing to the team. Chris Young hasn't really broken out yet but he's been a lot better than anyone we've had in CF the last two seasons and he's still just 25 years old. We pretty much gave Jon Rauch away and he's been a pretty useful reliever the past several seasons.

 

Jeremy Reed? Wells and Rauch had moderate success in the NL, but haven't been anything special.

[Buehrle>Wood]

We pretty much gave Jon Rauch away

 

If by giving away you mean for one of the key components of the 2005 championship team, then yeah I agree.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Jeremy Reed? Wells and Rauch had moderate success in the NL, but haven't been anything special.

Jeremy Reed is a future Hall of Famer, no doubt about it.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If by giving away you mean for one of the key components of the 2005 championship team, then yeah I agree.

Carl Everett never got on base enough to win us a championship.