Swish Traded to the Yankees

[scenario]

Wow. The analysis is spot on. The Sox DID sell shockingly low on Swisher, AND gave up the best pitcher in the deal on top of everything. The chances of Swisher rebounding are much better than any of these former Yankee scrubs ever amounting to anything.

 

There's a reason why South Side Sox is regularly linked to by other, respected publications. It's a great site with extensive analysis and scouting predictions, which is more than I can say about Sox Talk. I'm sure I will be kicked off now, so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves.

 

Analysis?????

 

What analysis?

 

I just read the articles again, and the only 'analysis' in there is the one little table of Hits/9 and K/9 for Marquez.

 

Ohhh... I'm sorry. I forgot the 'analysis' he did of Nunez: "And Nunez isn't even worth discussing, because the Sox added essentially the same player in the deal, a AA reliever with good numbers. That seems like a one-for-one swap in itself."

 

Let's call those articles what they are... opinion pieces of someone who didn't like the trade. Period.

 

Edited November 17, 2008 by scenario

[southsider2k5]

I'm getting really sick of people claiming Garland for Cabrera was a bad move.

 

-Garland performed at his usual mediocre nothing to complain about but nothing to blow you away 4th starter self

-Garland is a Type B FA who'll net the Angels 1 pick; Cabrera is a Type A and will net us 2

-Cabrera did not have a bad year for us and it was better than what Uribe would have done

-Trading Garland allowed Floyd and Danks to land a spot in the rotation and we saw how that worked out

 

I'm having a really hard time to claim a "loss" for KW here

 

The only "loss" in that trade was that Cabrera pissed off the organization, plus he wasn't interested in signing and extention. Luckily the work of Kenny Williams got us Alexei Ramirez so we aren't going to be as hurt by his departure.

[Leonard Zelig]

I'm getting really sick of people claiming Garland for Cabrera was a bad move.

 

-Garland performed at his usual mediocre nothing to complain about but nothing to blow you away 4th starter self

-Garland is a Type B FA who'll net the Angels 1 pick; Cabrera is a Type A and will net us 2

-Cabrera did not have a bad year for us and it was better than what Uribe would have done

-Trading Garland allowed Floyd and Danks to land a spot in the rotation and we saw how that worked out

 

I'm having a really hard time to claim a "loss" for KW here

 

Well, we haven't offered him arb. yet, so as of now Cabrera doesn't net us anything.

[Chisoxfn]

Wow. The analysis is spot on. The Sox DID sell shockingly low on Swisher, AND gave up the best pitcher in the deal on top of everything. The chances of Swisher rebounding are much better than any of these former Yankee scrubs ever amounting to anything.

 

There's a reason why South Side Sox is regularly linked to by other, respected publications. It's a great site with extensive analysis and scouting predictions, which is more than I can say about Sox Talk. I'm sure I will be kicked off now, so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves.

I'm not about to debate the merits of Soxtalk or Southside Sox and I will solely tell you that selling low is something you do for a guy that has proven himself to be a fully productive major league ball player. Nick Swisher showed absolutely nothing last year. Does he have baseball tools, sure, was his value at an all time low, sure, but there isn't a f***ing team in baseball that was about to give up A type prospects for someone that was as god awful as Swisher was last year.

[Dick Allen]

I'm not about to debate the merits of Soxtalk or Southside Sox and I will solely tell you that selling low is something you do for a guy that has proven himself to be a fully productive major league ball player. Nick Swisher showed absolutely nothing last year. Does he have baseball tools, sure, was his value at an all time low, sure, but there isn't a f***ing team in baseball that was about to give up A type prospects for someone that was as god awful as Swisher was last year.

The problem with the concept of trying to sell high and buy low is that you would always be trading your best players and the players who can't play would be littering your roster for years. The quicker you admit your mistakes and move on, the better. I like that blog, but ripping the Sox for "selling low" is BS. The guy sucked, was owed a lot of money, and the positions he plays happen to be where the Sox have more capable players. You get rid of him for what you can. They didn't have to eat any of the contract. Spend some of the savings on other players who actually can help you and move on.

[Chisoxfn]

From the scouting reports and write-ups I've seen posted here and elsewhere, it appears Marquez, in the span of one year, went from the #7 prospect in the Yankees' system (which would have included Hughes, Kennedy, and Chamberlain among others) and a potential future #2 starter to a nobody who sucks and isn't worth the letters on the back of his jersey. So what happened that one year that took him from a very good prospect in a great system to a nobody? A horrible year and a mild shoulder strain, of course. Yeah, there's no way Kenny saw anything in this kid...

The mild strain probably had a significant impact on his down-season. A year ago people were talking about him being a middle of the rotation starter and now some insiders still believe him to be a potential back of the rotation guy. So yes, I'd trade a guy that couldn't hit .200 for most of the season to get a potential back of the rotation starter that would be cheap for numerous years. I also laugh at how people rip on the other minor leaguer that was traded for and than slurp all over about how great Texeria is.

 

I like Tex, dont' think he should have been included in the trade but the guy the Sox got is closer to the majors and has a skill-set that could help him eventually develop into a set-up type guy. Will he, I don't know, but lets cut the bulls*** (not you Kenny the other poster) when you act like you know more than the rest of the world and that these guys are non-existent prospects and aren't worthy of being major leaguers.

 

f***, if you think the Yanks didn't have some sort of interest in Marquez they wouldn't have sent him to the Fall League where he could get additional innings.

 

 

[ThunderBolt]

I think the contents of the article are very questionable, that being said, I think the premise is fine. The Sox did sell low, I’m not sure there’s much question about it. Despite Dick Allen’s constant repetition, Swisher’s a good ball-player coming off a down year. For most organizations that fetches a package a bit more then what the Sox got. However, clearly Kenny saw something in this Marquez kid that most people did not. So, I won’t write this one off just yet.

[caulfield12]

What next, Tyler Lumsden will win the Cy Young award? LHP Javy Lopez is 10X better than Boone Logan and we should have offered Riske arbitration?

 

Ordonez/Lee/Valentin

 

Our chances of signing Sabathia were about the same as Juan Agosto and Jerry Kutzler being added to the 40 man roster as ST invites.

 

Contreras? Sure...we never should have traded for the guy in the first place? I mean, we gave up someone who ALMOST won the Cy Young for someone who only became the best pitcher in baseball for 4-5 months. Not to mention the Cardinals made a worse mistake with Cris Carpenter, right? I mean, there's NO possibility KW even was smart enough to think ahead and insure Jose's contract either, true?

 

If Cortes would have come into 2009 as the favorite for the 5th starter's job and KW did NOTHING else before ST to address the back end of the rotation, you might have a SOMEWHAT legit gripe. But MacDougal has had more of an impact at the MLB level than Cortes has for the Royals. If you want to argue bad trades, then you can say Sisco/Gload was worse, but, even then, Gload HAD NO PLACE TO PLAY WITH US. WE'RE KIND OF GOOD, the Royals, kind of not so good. Lest we forget, Swisher was so good that DeWayne Wise was playing in the most critical games of the season in front of him. Oh, that's right, Ozzie has grudges against all non-Hispanic players (Anderson, Sean Tracey, Swisher, etc.)

Edited November 17, 2008 by caulfield12

[santo=dorf]

Garland for Cabrera was not a mistake trade at all. We traded a type B (Garland) for a type A (Cabrera). Moreover it opened up the rotation for Floyd and Danks, one of whom would not be in the rotation otherwise.

 

This trade may be a mistake, but KW does seem to have a great eye for pitching prospects.

 

It seems above all that this trade was motivated by personality. Swish pissed everyone off and even more so seemed to just be really really annoying in the clubhouse. Sending him to the Yankees is like sending a punk kid to boot camp. Honestly I think it's hilarious. He's not going to get along with them well.

I am getting so sick of the "it opened up a spot for Floyd or Danks" comment about Garland. That's completely hindsight and could've been applied if Garland was released eating his entire salary which wouldn't be fair to say either. Couldn't I say the trade of Garland allowed us to suffer from Javy all season long, or that we could've had someone step in Contreras' spot and not force our guys to go on short rest for so long (could possibly effect them for next season.) "Opening a spot" without hindsight would be something like a Liriano situation where he is dominating and is blocked. Danks and Floyd were coming off of 5+ era seasons.

 

Also, if it's true that the Sox aren't planning to offer Cabrera arbitration, I hope there's a filter that wipes out anytime some posts "player X is a type A free agent so that's two picks we'll get back."

[chunk23]

If Cabrera is signed before the arbitration deadline it doesn't matter if they offer it.

 

 

Considering that you can't judge a trade immediately after it's made, I don't think saying it's hindsight is a valid criticism. KW felt that Danks and Floyd were ready to step into the rotation and he was right.

[DBAHO]

I am getting so sick of the "it opened up a spot for Floyd or Danks" comment about Garland. That's completely hindsight and could've been applied if Garland was released eating his entire salary which wouldn't be fair to say either. Couldn't I say the trade of Garland allowed us to suffer from Javy all season long, or that we could've had someone step in Contreras' spot and not force our guys to go on short rest for so long (could possibly effect them for next season.) "Opening a spot" without hindsight would be something like a Liriano situation where he is dominating and is blocked. Danks and Floyd were coming off of 5+ era seasons.

 

Also, if it's true that the Sox aren't planning to offer Cabrera arbitration, I hope there's a filter that wipes out anytime some posts "player X is a type A free agent so that's two picks we'll get back."

Where have you heard that news from FWIW?

[Buehrle>Wood]

I am getting so sick of the "it opened up a spot for Floyd or Danks" comment about Garland. That's completely hindsight

 

Well, duh. Just like all trades, their effects should be analyzed with hindsight.

 

Couldn't I say the trade of Garland allowed us to suffer from Javy all season long,

 

 

Well, no, considering Garland being here or not more than likely did not affect what we had in Vazquez. Let's be the least bit logical here. If Garland was here, I think we can all agree that Danks or Floyd likely wasn't given a spot.

 

or that we could've had someone step in Contreras' spot and not force our guys to go on short rest for so long (could possibly effect them for next season.)

Feel free to complain about that. In fact, many people have. But again, let's be a little logical. The positives of having Danks/Floyd in there all season still well outweighs not having one of them in there for the majority of the season. That I think everyone could agre on.

[Leonard Zelig]

Where have you heard that news from FWIW?

 

It's here

 

If they are going to do it, why wouldn't they have done it already? Free agency is open and he could sign any time now.

 

 

 

And of course Kalapse answers that questin here

Edited November 17, 2008 by Leonard Zelig

[sircaffey]

Well, duh. Just like all trades, their effects should be analyzed with hindsight.

 

Well, yes and no. Say we trade Poreda for Ronny Cedeno. Then 5 years from now Poreda is out of baseball, does that make it a good trade? You've got to look at the value given up/gotten at the time of the trade as well.

[chunk23]

Well, in that case we traded a soon to be FA type B pitcher who could be replaced from within the system for a soon to be FA type A shortstop whose position could not be filled from within the system.

[Disco72]

I am getting so sick of the "it opened up a spot for Floyd or Danks" comment about Garland.

 

How about the Garland wasn't very good in 2008 argument? Isn't that one pretty convincing? Cabrera was right around his career averages (slightly better OBP, slightly worse average) while Garland had a 4.90 ERA, his worst since his first year in the majors (and pretty close to his 2004).

[G&T]

How about the Garland wasn't very good in 2008 argument? Isn't that one pretty convincing? Cabrera was right around his career averages (slightly better OBP, slightly worse average) while Garland had a 4.90 ERA, his worst since his first year in the majors (and pretty close to his 2004).

 

Garland also took himself out of the Angels post season rotation. Imagine if Javy had done that? (actually, there may have been applause)

[Chisoxfn]

It's here

 

If they are going to do it, why wouldn't they have done it already? Free agency is open and he could sign any time now.

 

 

 

And of course Kalapse answers that questin here

Why not wait all the way until the deadline. No reason to lock yourself into the possibility of arbitration until you absolutely have to.

[caulfield12]

What will be interesting is to see if Crede and Uribe can pull the trigger early...some of those FA lists have Crede as high as #10 "most wanted," which I find amazing/incredible to believe. But hey MLB GM's, just roll the tape from September/October 05 and let those guaranteed millions start rolling Boras' way.

 

It will also be intriguing to see if the Twins do get Huston Street, Blake and/or Cabrera...how/when/if KW responds. I'm waiting for the priceless "All this has done is put the Twins in a better position to compete with us..." comments, especially with O-Cab. I'm sure he will have a grin or two on his face, knowing we will get back their draft picks.

 

If we hadn't just traded for Betemit, I wouldn't have been shocked to see him bring in Mr. Nick "Slide Into 1B on every routine infield grounder" Punto

Edited November 18, 2008 by caulfield12

[Kalapse]

Why not wait all the way until the deadline. No reason to lock yourself into the possibility of arbitration until you absolutely have to.

That's what pretty much all teams elect to do.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

What will be interesting is to see if Crede and Uribe can pull the trigger early...some of those FA lists have Crede as high as #10 "most wanted," which I find amazing/incredible to believe. But hey MLB GM's, just roll the tape from September/October 05 and let those guaranteed millions start rolling Boras' way.

 

It will also be intriguing to see if the Twins do get Huston Street, Blake and/or Cabrera...how/when/if KW responds. I'm waiting for the priceless "All this has done is put the Twins in a better position to compete with us..." comments, especially with O-Cab. I'm sure he will have a grin or two on his face, knowing we will get back their draft picks.

 

If we hadn't just traded for Betemit, I wouldn't have been shocked to see him bring in Mr. Nick "Slide Into 1B on every routine infield grounder" Punto

I'm not really worried about what the Twins do. At most they'll add some good veteran complimentary players. At worst (for them) they'll find another Tony Batista/Livan Hernandez/Ramon Ortiz type of "bargain." Either way, it's their core that is going to kill us. They won't get anyone better than anyone that is a part of their core, unless of course they deal Delmon Young. So yeah, I really don't care, and if they want to sign OC and give us their first round pick then that is perfectly fine with me. OC is an overrated defensive SS and as a hitter he is nothing much to worry about unless he's on a hot streak.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[caulfield12]

I want OC to go there and see the Slowest Show on Turf.

 

I just don't want to see them add Blake or Beltre. Both of those would be exactly the kind of veteran leadership they lost when Hunter/Radke/Santana/J. Jones moved on.

 

I really think there's a sense about the Twins that Morneau and/or Mauer are not really fiery enough...the same types of things you hear said about Dye/Konerko/Thome over and over again.

 

I do think having those types of veterans to reign in the likes of D. Young, Matt Garza, etc., are necessary. If the Twins did a better job "in-house" of handling Matt's maturity issues, they wouldn't have had to trade him.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The mild strain probably had a significant impact on his down-season. A year ago people were talking about him being a middle of the rotation starter and now some insiders still believe him to be a potential back of the rotation guy. So yes, I'd trade a guy that couldn't hit .200 for most of the season to get a potential back of the rotation starter that would be cheap for numerous years. I also laugh at how people rip on the other minor leaguer that was traded for and than slurp all over about how great Texeria is.

 

I like Tex, dont' think he should have been included in the trade but the guy the Sox got is closer to the majors and has a skill-set that could help him eventually develop into a set-up type guy. Will he, I don't know, but lets cut the bulls*** (not you Kenny the other poster) when you act like you know more than the rest of the world and that these guys are non-existent prospects and aren't worthy of being major leaguers.

 

f***, if you think the Yanks didn't have some sort of interest in Marquez they wouldn't have sent him to the Fall League where he could get additional innings.

Agree completely. Obviously the Sox have faith in him and the Yanks didn't sell him off to Japan like they did with our Rasner's brother. Guys fall off the radar just as quickly as they jump on it, but if a guy does show up on the radar, then he's probably got some kind of talent. Kenny doesn't make his deals according to prospect rankings based largely on statistics; he makes them based off of what he see and what his trusted scouts tell him.

[caulfield12]

Where have you gone, Francisco Hernandez DiMaggio?

 

Well...that idea bodes well for both Silverio and Jose Martinez. Hopefully they're not the next Dellaero/Caruso/A. Gonzalez.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I want OC to go there and see the Slowest Show on Turf.

 

I just don't want to see them add Blake or Beltre. Both of those would be exactly the kind of veteran leadership they lost when Hunter/Radke/Santana/J. Jones moved on.

 

I really think there's a sense about the Twins that Morneau and/or Mauer are not really fiery enough...the same types of things you hear said about Dye/Konerko/Thome over and over again.

 

I do think having those types of veterans to reign in the likes of D. Young, Matt Garza, etc., are necessary. If the Twins did a better job "in-house" of handling Matt's maturity issues, they wouldn't have had to trade him.

Isn't Blake like 37 or 38 now? I wonder how much left he has in him and how long of a deal he's going to want. Hopefully if he goes to the Twins they give him good money over three years. He can't have a whole lot left at the hot corner.

 

As far as veteran leadership you may have a point, but if they want a fiery guy they're probably not going to want a laid-back type like Blake - or really any ex-Indians for that matter as it seems the Indians are notorious for playing one half of a season and going through the motions for the other. Besides, I doubt that clubhouse lacks fire. Carlos Gomez is a f***ing nutcase who I am sure over the course of a season provides his share of odd yelps and Spanish battle cries.