What do these stats tell you

[Texsox]

This blew up a little too much. I'll leave you with this.

 

It is unfair to assume why anyone voted the way they did. Perhaps they liked war veterans. I don't know, and will not assume the worse in someone because it fits into some world view that y'all have up north. Jumping to the conclusion that *anyone*, *anywhere*, is racist because they favor McCain over Obama, Larry Bird over Magic Johnson, or Elvis Presley over Sam Cooke is just wrong.

 

Paint it anyway you like, but you are making an assumption about why someone voted a certain way and it shows your "regionalism" and propensity to think the worse of some southerners. And that really sucks.

[southsider2k5]

Its called correlation. The heat map that someone posted here a couple weeks ago was a good example. In the great majority of the country, Obama did better than Kerry, which makes correlated sense with the fact that Obama was better than Kerry nationally as well. But that geographical area we are referencing, the opposite happened. And those areas have a history of being culturally less open-minded - though again, this is a net tendency, not an absolute.

 

Of course, correlation is not necessarily causation. There could be other causes.

 

Do you have another theory?

 

So if there was an overlay in areas that were primarily black where Obama's gains outgained the national numbers, would this be the same type of "tendency'?

[NorthSideSox72]

So if there was an overlay in areas that were primarily black where Obama's gains outgained the national numbers, would this be the same type of "tendency'?

Of course.

 

One can get into the social ramifications of each variety of racism being more or less valid, but if the comparison is the same a la your description, than that would be my guess as well.

 

[Texsox]

And once again, we find Obama voters accusing *some* McCain voters of racism. That's not a problem and understood as "proven" and "fact". It's been happening for a year and continues to happen. What a shame.

[NorthSideSox72]

And once again, we find Obama voters accusing *some* McCain voters of racism. That's not a problem and understood as "proven" and "fact". It's been happening for a year and continues to happen. What a shame.

Do you really believe that race was not a factor for ANY voters, for EITHER candidate?

 

[bmags]

I find it quite funny that someone who was so convinced that the Bradley effect is real and a phenomenon is now claiming that race is not a factor at all in the election.

[Texsox]

I find it quite funny that someone who was so convinced that the Bradley effect is real and a phenomenon is now claiming that race is not a factor at all in the election.

 

Difference, I believe it was spread equally across the country, just just those racists rednecks in the south. I'm consistent. What I find funny is suddenly there are only racists in the south. People that dismissed the Bradley effect are real quick to claim the only area of the country that is still racist, or at least racist enough to switch from Kerry to Obama, are four states in the South. That effect could not be spread equally across the country.

 

The effect, btw, is people beinig polled change their answers. Well documented and accepted by every polling expert.

 

I find several assumptions interesting. First off, no matter what Obama does during the next four years, every Dem voter will remain a Dem voter in the next election. If he does not get reelected, it must be because of race. Since Kerry = Obama and the appeal is the same, then certainly Obama = Obama in the next election. So the GOP should just forget about ever winning another election.

 

I guess shocking of all are the racists in Illinois that did not support Braun in getting relected. Again, there couldn't be any other reason to switch.

[whitesoxfan101]

And once again, we find Obama voters accusing *some* McCain voters of racism. That's not a problem and understood as "proven" and "fact". It's been happening for a year and continues to happen. What a shame.

 

For the record, I didn't vote for Obama.

[bmags]

Difference, I believe it was spread equally across the country, just just those racists rednecks in the south. I'm consistent. What I find funny is suddenly there are only racists in the south. People that dismissed the Bradley effect are real quick to claim the only area of the country that is still racist, or at least racist enough to switch from Kerry to Obama, are four states in the South. That effect could not be spread equally across the country.

 

The effect, btw, is people beinig polled change their answers. Well documented and accepted by every polling expert.

 

I find several assumptions interesting. First off, no matter what Obama does during the next four years, every Dem voter will remain a Dem voter in the next election. If he does not get reelected, it must be because of race. Since Kerry = Obama and the appeal is the same, then certainly Obama = Obama in the next election. So the GOP should just forget about ever winning another election.

 

I guess shocking of all are the racists in Illinois that did not support Braun in getting relected. Again, there couldn't be any other reason to switch.

 

The bradley effect is not accepted by any polling expert I've seen. And further, what a fun hypothesis that racism is spread completely equally throughout the country.

[Texsox]

The bradley effect is not accepted by any polling expert I've seen. And further, what a fun hypothesis that racism is spread completely equally throughout the country.

 

Again, and for the tenth time, please read my post.

 

That people do not give 100% accurate answers to pollsters is very well accepted. For example, they will bump up their income by a category or two. Pollsters each find their own way to adjust results so that it is accurate. Which is one reason that polls vary and there is some skill involved in interpreting results.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...;pagewanted=all

One problem that has defied cognitive psychologists is that people give incorrect answers to pollsters. For example, experts on surveys say that when people are asked if they voted in the last election, about 20 to 30 percent will say they did when they did not. The experts say the percentages for misleading answers is about the same when people are asked if they plan to vote in a forthcoming election.

 

 

Now here is race card everyone can play with at home

 

clip and save

McCain + Bush = Non racist

McCain + No Vote + North = Possibly Racist

McCain + No Vote + South = Probable Racist

McCain + Kerry + North = too few to mention

McCain + Kerry + South = Proven Racist

[Chet Lemon]

McCain + Bush = Republican

McCain + Kerry + North = Joe Lieberman

[YASNY]

Ok, I went through the first three pages of this thread and I just had to stop reading. First of all if you really believe that 97 f***ing % of the black voters voted for Obama because he is a democrat, and not because he's black, you are an idiot. Second, if you don't see this as a double standard you are an even bigger idiot. Third, if you really believe that the south is any more racist than the north you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Very few of you have lived in both places, and I have. It's just as bad in Chicago as it is Alabama. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that racism is worse in Chicago that is here in Paducah KY.

 

Some of you people have this pie in sky outlook on things and it is just not realistic.

[lostfan]

If you want to call me an idiot, then just say it.

[YASNY]

If you want to call me an idiot, then just say it.

 

Okay, maybe I got a little harsh there. It happens in this forum quite a bit. So, I apologize to anyone that was offended by my choice of words. That being said, I just can't believe the spin that people put of things to reinforce thier own personal version of utopia. There is no utopia. It's a hard, cut throat, bitter, racist world and those are the facts. It may change eventually, but I won't see it in my lifetime.

[lostfan]

Okay, maybe I got a little harsh there. It happens in this forum quite a bit. So, I apologize to anyone that was offended by my choice of words. That being said, I just can't believe the spin that people put of things to reinforce thier own personal version of utopia. There is no utopia. It's a hard, cut throat, bitter, racist world and those are the facts. It may change eventually, but I won't see it in my lifetime.

We're good, I just felt like that was directly at me and I wanted to throw that out there, I wasn't trying to start anything. In reference to what you said specifically I went into further detail with that later in the thread. Summary:

 

Blacks are overwhelmingly Democrats, have been for a while, and will continue to be

About 90% voted for Kerry

About 95% voted for Obama (a Democrat, who is also charismatic and who got more votes from other races too)

Some were idiots and voted on race alone, but not that many

Anecdotally, I know of only 2 black people that voted McCain (my brother is one), the rest of them are Democrats and voted Obama, and I can't name a single one that voted for him because he was black

 

Conclusion: A certain, unknown percentage of blacks voted based on race just like a certain, unknown percentage of whites voted against him for the same reason. This hasn't been denied or challenged by anyone on my side of the argument, to my knowledge, and nobody's been claiming ALL blacks voted purely, or that ALL white voters voted against him because they're racist (except Tex who sticks to his bizarre claim that we are) because it would be ludicrous.

Edited November 19, 2008 by lostfan

[YASNY]

No, I wasn't pointing at you or anyone specifically. As far as Tex goes, there my not have been a specific accusation made, but there have been generic implications made. Which, if I'm not mistaken, you took my comment in the same context that Tex has been taking the subtle implications. Though, I wasn't very subtle. Still, I can totally understand his point of view.

[StrangeSox]

We're good, I just felt like that was directly at me and I wanted to throw that out there, I wasn't trying to start anything. In reference to what you said specifically I went into further detail with that later in the thread. Summary:

 

Blacks are overwhelmingly Democrats, have been for a while, and will continue to be

About 90% voted for Kerry

About 95% voted for Obama (a Democrat, who is also charismatic and who got more votes from other races too)

Some were idiots and voted on race alone, but not that many

Anecdotally, I know of only 2 black people that voted McCain (my brother is one), the rest of them are Democrats and voted Obama, and I can't name a single one that voted for him because he was black

 

Conclusion: A certain, unknown percentage of blacks voted based on race just like a certain, unknown percentage of whites voted against him for the same reason. This hasn't been denied or challenged by anyone on my side of the argument, to my knowledge, and nobody's been claiming ALL blacks voted purely, or that ALL white voters voted against him because they're racist (except Tex who sticks to his bizarre claim that we are) because it would be ludicrous.

 

[lostfan]

No, I wasn't pointing at you or anyone specifically. As far as Tex goes, there my not have been a specific accusation made, but there have been generic implications made. Which, if I'm not mistaken, you took my comment in the same context that Tex has been taking the subtle implications. Though, I wasn't very subtle. Still, I can totally understand his point of view.

I know, well I think I know you well enough as a poster, but I tend to get defensive sometimes so I'm sorry if sometimes I come across as confrontational. Generally when I talk politics, I love to argue, but I have to speak directly at the person rather than around them, so I had to clear that up.

 

I highly doubt anyone in here is trying to implicate Tex in anything, I think I started posting in here when I didn't understand why he felt he was included in the shotgun blast when he lives in West Texas and we're talking about a specific group of states, and when his reasons for voting McCain are well-known and he's stated them, but we're talking about uninformed voters. Still, after all these pages, I don't understand why he'd take it personally.

[YASNY]

I know, well I think I know you well enough as a poster, but I tend to get defensive sometimes so I'm sorry if sometimes I come across as confrontational. Generally when I talk politics, I love to argue, but I have to speak directly at the person rather than around them, so I had to clear that up.

 

I highly doubt anyone in here is trying to implicate Tex in anything, I think I started posting in here when I didn't understand why he felt he was included in the shotgun blast when he lives in West Texas and we're talking about a specific group of states, and when his reasons for voting McCain are well-known and he's stated them, but we're talking about uninformed voters. Still, after all these pages, I don't understand why he'd take it personally.

 

Well, I was the confrontational one with my first post. But, yes, I can totally understand why Tex took it personally. Tex is not a racist by any stretch of the imagination and yet he was correct. He was getting painted with that broad brush. It was subtle, it was written between the lines, but it was there. In my opinion he had every reason to take it personally and be insulted by it.

[lostfan]

Off-subject but I've been meaning to ask about your Roger Baldwin quote in your sig, IIRC he started off being a supporter of socialism, but he was a big anti-Communist later in life wasn't he?

[southsider2k5]

Ok, I went through the first three pages of this thread and I just had to stop reading. First of all if you really believe that 97 f***ing % of the black voters voted for Obama because he is a democrat, and not because he's black, you are an idiot. Second, if you don't see this as a double standard you are an even bigger idiot. Third, if you really believe that the south is any more racist than the north you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Very few of you have lived in both places, and I have. It's just as bad in Chicago as it is Alabama. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that racism is worse in Chicago that is here in Paducah KY.

 

Some of you people have this pie in sky outlook on things and it is just not realistic.

 

To me, this is why racism and all of the other "-isms" survive as a nice little cottage industry in the US today. We draw way too many arbitrary lines in some places, but ignore the same lines in other places. The more we divide up this country, the longer the "-isms" stick around and become relevant. To me the basic definition of an "-ism", is if you are assigning a line of though to a group of people based on a stereotype, or otherwise lack of direct knowledge. Its telling that it is so easy to label groups of people in this country, and it be completely accepted, even encouraged as some sort of higher level of thinking. This country won't achieve any kind of equality until everyone realizes that labeling entire swaths of people is wrong, no matter what. Anything else is just fostering more generations of "-ists".

[NorthSideSox72]

Ok, I went through the first three pages of this thread and I just had to stop reading. First of all if you really believe that 97 f***ing % of the black voters voted for Obama because he is a democrat, and not because he's black, you are an idiot. Second, if you don't see this as a double standard you are an even bigger idiot. Third, if you really believe that the south is any more racist than the north you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Very few of you have lived in both places, and I have. It's just as bad in Chicago as it is Alabama. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that racism is worse in Chicago that is here in Paducah KY.

 

Some of you people have this pie in sky outlook on things and it is just not realistic.

*raises hand*

 

I've lived in TN, IL, CO and IA. Just for reference.

 

[YASNY]

Off-subject but I've been meaning to ask about your Roger Baldwin quote in your sig, IIRC he started off being a supporter of socialism, but he was a big anti-Communist later in life wasn't he?

 

I honestly don't know. I never considered the possibility. If you can put me on to something that points to what you say, I'll delete it off my sig. I saw the quote and thought that it worth mentioning.

[lostfan]

I honestly don't know. I never considered the possibility. If you can put me on to something that points to what you say, I'll delete it off my sig. I saw the quote and thought that it worth mentioning.

I don't remember where I read it but the best thing I could find is this:

 

While working in St. Louis, Baldwin met and became friends with the anarchist Emma Goldman. His first defense of free speech came in 1912 when he spoke in support of Margaret Sanger, an early crusader for birth control and reproductive rights, whose lecture was shut down by the police. Through the social work profession he was attracted to the reform movement and the labor movement. He organized the Division on Industrial and Economic Problems at the 1916 meeting of the National Conference of Social Work, and wrote a report calling for cooperative production and distribution systems to replace competitive labor systems.

The whole socialist/Communist movement was pretty young back then and it had its roots in the labor rights movement. So, at first, he was a Communist and the quote is probably accurate.

 

Although not a member of any party, he supported the causes of Communists, Socialists, and other leftist organizations during the 1920s and 1930s. However, in 1940, when he began to realize that the Communist label was being used by totalitarian governments, he wrote a resolution that resulted in the removal of all the Communist members of the ACLU board. Ironically, Baldwin's resolution became the model for government loyalty oaths, which the ACLU later attacked in court.

The bolded part is what I was referring to.

Edited November 19, 2008 by lostfan

[YASNY]

Ok, that's cool. However, I'm going to wait to see if anyone has any more input on this subject. I'll give it a couple days.