What do these stats tell you

[lostfan]

I think the ACLU is misunderstood. I guess what people (mostly Republicans) take issue with is the way they prioritize who and what they defend, but they usually take the more controversial viewpoints.

[whitesoxfan101]

*raises hand*

 

I've lived in TN, IL, CO and IA. Just for reference.

 

Also for reference, although I have never lived permanently in the south, I spent the better part of 3 summers growing up in the Birmingham area, and what I saw there is where a lot of my opinions in this thread in part come from.

[lostfan]

I lived in GA for 3 years, I remember once stopping to take a dump at a gas station in Tennessee on my way to Chicago one January and there was some graffiti in the bathroom that said "Happy James Earl Ray Day" (an obvious play on words in reference to MLK) and a bunch of other stuff. That made me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 

I've been to Paducah once, I never detected any overt racism there (as if I was there long enough in the first place), but the hillbilly stereotype applies to eastern KY, not western.

[EvilMonkey]

I think the ACLU is misunderstood. I guess what people (mostly Republicans) take issue with is the way they prioritize who and what they defend, but they usually take the more controversial viewpoints.

And that they interpret all ammendments as broadly as possible except for the second one, which they try to stick by the exact letter written. Defend Nazis, defend porn, defend school free speech, thats all good. leave me my guns.

[YASNY]

I lived in GA for 3 years, I remember once stopping to take a dump at a gas station in Tennessee on my way to Chicago one January and there was some graffiti in the bathroom that said "Happy James Earl Ray Day" (an obvious play on words in reference to MLK) and a bunch of other stuff. That made me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 

I've been to Paducah once, I never detected any overt racism there (as if I was there long enough in the first place), but the hillbilly stereotype applies to eastern KY, not western.

 

The hillbilly stereotype applies across the south. Both of my parents are from western KY, but I was born and raised in the Chicago area. Still, I have experienced several incidents, as did my parents, that were blatantly prejudicial against people from the south. I'm telling you, there is a very prevelant anti-southern sentiment in the Chicago area whether you (not specifically you, lostfan) choose to admit it or not. I know this for a fact because I lived it. Words cannot convince me otherwise.

[Texsox]

hey, Yas. Welcome to the thread, I was missing you.

 

And for the rest, sorry you don't get how insulting it is when the vast majority of the posters in this thread saw the numbers, and the only reason they could come up with to explain the results was it "proved racism". It shows the regional bias in this country. There were almost no other theories mentioned. Nope, it's the south and we know how racist they are, this proves it.

 

Now, if Obama isn't reelected, perhaps loses Ohio, will that mean that people in Ohio have become racist in four years? Or was this an inoculation that prevents those accusations?

[whitesoxfan101]

I'm telling you, there is a very prevelant anti-southern sentiment in the Chicago area whether you (not specifically you, lostfan) choose to admit it or not. I know this for a fact because I lived it. Words cannot convince me otherwise.

 

I won't argue against this point. There is anti-southern sentiment in the north, and there is anti-northern sentiment in the south (experienced that personally in the summers in Birmingham I mentioned, without question). That has existed going back to the Civil War days (if not earlier), and I don't know if it will ever go away. Regionalism is a price that you pay as a nation for a long time when you fight a war against yourself.

[Texsox]

And that they interpret all ammendments as broadly as possible except for the second one, which they try to stick by the exact letter written. Defend Nazis, defend porn, defend school free speech, thats all good. leave me my guns.

 

They defend those that have a difficult time defending themselves. It seems the pro gun lobby has plenty of resources to fight. And it is a miscarriage to say defend Nazis. Usually it is the law they are fighting, and it usually is applied first to those groups we find morally repugnant. But if we head it off at the Nazis, we save the Young Republicans, Sierra Club, and Daughters of the American Revolution.

[lostfan]

If he loses Ohio then it will have meant they thought he sucked as a president, same as any other re-election campaign this country's ever had. There is nothing credible to point to statistically that gives a reason to believe otherwise.

[lostfan]

They defend those that have a difficult time defending themselves. It seems the pro gun lobby has plenty of resources to fight. And it is a miscarriage to say defend Nazis. Usually it is the law they are fighting, and it usually is applied first to those groups we find morally repugnant. But if we head it off at the Nazis, we save the Young Republicans, Sierra Club, and Daughters of the American Revolution.

That's about right. And it's not defending Nazis, it's defending the free speech rights of Nazis.

 

In a related semi-rant, of my pet peeves is when people say "free speech is dead." God I hate that. No, what's dead is the ability to say things in public that piss people off without consequence. But the right to say it never went anywhere.

[Texsox]

If he loses Ohio then it will have meant they thought he sucked as a president, same as any other re-election campaign this country's ever had. There is nothing credible to point to statistically that gives a reason to believe otherwise.

 

Exactly!

 

But read the thread, if you voted for Kerry you had to vote for Obama. That was the assumption. And if you didn't the only reason that was agreed upon was people in those states are racist.

 

Why couldn't voters in those four southern states have voted for Kerry then McCain, same as any other election this country has ever had?

[whitesoxfan101]

Exactly!

 

But read the thread, if you voted for Kerry you had to vote for Obama. That was the assumption. And if you didn't the only reason that was agreed upon was people in those states are racist.

 

Why couldn't voters in those four southern states have voted for Kerry then McCain, same as any other election this country has ever had?

 

This is getting off topic (to an issue of relevance even), but how could anybody vote for Kerry in 2004 due to disguist with Bush, then vote for McCain in 2008? I know he isn't the same guy as Bush, but that logic doesn't really compute with me.

[YASNY]

I won't argue against this point. There is anti-southern sentiment in the north, and there is anti-northern sentiment in the south (experienced that personally in the summers in Birmingham I mentioned, without question). That has existed going back to the Civil War days (if not earlier), and I don't know if it will ever go away. Regionalism is a price that you pay as a nation for a long time when you fight a war against yourself.

 

I will grant you the fact that some people in the south still have a hang up about the "damn yankees". I'll also tell you that though I have lived here since 1976 my accent has stayed the same to the extent that I still get asked where I am from. I have not experienced near the prejudice in the 32, almost 33, years I've been here that I experienced in my 18 years in the Chicago area.

That being said, there is still this utopia point of view regarding racism that is simply not the way it actually is in real life. Being pro-Obama makes everybody feel good and believe they are above and beyond prejudice. I call bulls*** on that because politicaly correct. Yet, the predjudice is still there ... whether it is focused on people of a different skin shade or people from a different region. In general, you people (and yes I am using the "you people" expression) think you are above and beyond any prejudice, but I got news for you, you aren't.

[EvilMonkey]

They defend those that have a difficult time defending themselves. It seems the pro gun lobby has plenty of resources to fight. And it is a miscarriage to say defend Nazis. Usually it is the law they are fighting, and it usually is applied first to those groups we find morally repugnant. But if we head it off at the Nazis, we save the Young Republicans, Sierra Club, and Daughters of the American Revolution.

Tex, read my post again. I didn't say that everything they do is bad. My quick typing of 'defend nazis' should not be read literally, I believe you know what I mean. Don'g go all over-the-top on me here. The reason they get anger from alot of Republicans is that they ignore the second ammendment cases with the same ferver that they pursuit the other ones. They don't 'help those that can't help thenselves'. They help those that have a defendent thjat they can get legal fees against. All these cases they take against schools, towns, etc net them some hefty paydays. Self preservation is the name of the game. Problem is that most of the gun cases they would take, if they WERE to actually take them, would be against the more liberal cities in this country, who are friends to the ACLU, like San Francisco and Washington D.C., and they wouldn't want to hurt their friends. And just an fyi, i dont think their charter says to defend the civil liberties only of those without the financial resources to do so themselves. If they are going to use that as a criteria for which cases to accept or not, they should say so. Because I can find you about a dozen cases now where BATFU is harrassing gun owners or stores for supposed violations and concealing evidence, altering tests, and changing internal regulations mid-case to make their point. And these are people without NRA backing, or ACLU.

[EvilMonkey]

In general, you people (and yes I am using the "you people" expression) think you are above and beyond any prejudice, but I got news for you, you aren't.

Having watched tropic Thunder last night, I almost spit my water out when i read that. I can picture you now in RDJ's fake accent saying that. "What do you MEAN, you people?"

[whitesoxfan101]

That being said, there is still this utopia point of view regarding racism that is simply not the way it actually is in real life. Being pro-Obama makes everybody feel good and believe they are above and beyond prejudice. I call bulls*** on that because politicaly correct. Yet, the predjudice is still there ... whether it is focused on people of a different skin shade or people from a different region. In general, you people (and yes I am using the "you people" expression) think you are above and beyond any prejudice, but I got news for you, you aren't.

 

I'm not going to argue any of this is blatently inaccurate, although I wasn't an Obama supporter and still feel good about myself and know I'm not prejudice, and I don't think racism doesn't exist in the north. I go to NIU, and we've had our own race issues personally, so I know it exists up here for a fact, plus I know Chicago isn't the greatest example of racial harmony either. The only point I've tried to make in this entire thread is that the fact that the ONLY part of America that saw a patterned and noticeable shift further towards the republican party (according to several statistical maps) in the presidential election was in the south. Combining that fact with the history of the south and even the current times in the south would lead you to logically conclude that race was a small factor in the voting patterns down there. A small factor (the shift was only a handful of points even in the areas where it went to the right the most), but a factor nontheless.

 

If the map had looked different for voting patterns, showing that only the great lakes or rust belt had voted more for the republican candidate this year than in 2004, I would be saying something like "wow, it's not the only factor in these numbers, but race problems in my area of the country are worse than I'd have ever guessed". But that's not how the numbers shook out so that's not what I said.

Edited November 19, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[NorthSideSox72]

A couple thoughts on racism in Chicago specifically...

 

Chicago has a pretty awful history of some bad acts in the area of race relations. The King Riots, and the terrible plans that led to the housing projects of the 70's, are big examples of it. The nature of Chicago being 200 individual neighborhoods was at one time very segregated, racially and culturally. This gives the city some of its character, but also some of its prejudice. However, as the city has gone through a renaissance of sorts in the past quarter century, race relations have improved along with it. Its a very different city than it was 25 years ago, and that includes racial issues. So while the history is ugly, the present picture is a strong model for other cities in making progress.

 

Second, about the anti-north and anti-south thing... it absolutely exists in both places against the other. I've seen it and experienced it. This is amplified that Chicagaons as a group tend to be bigger homers, if you will, than people from most other cities. Forget just regionalism - Chicagoans tend to be huge proponents of their own city's greatness beyond what I've seen from any others aside from New York. This makes the anti-southern sentiment that much stronger.

 

But I have also seen PLENTY of anti-Yankee sentiment in Tennessee. In fact, believe it or not, I participated in a weekend-long civil war re-enactment, and was part of a Confederate unit for the event. That was quite an experience on multiple levels. There are some folks who really don't seem to know the "War of Northern Aggression" is over. But, the majority of people I spent time with were neither scary nor overtly racist - I was in fact impressed with the dialogue I had with many of them on this very topic.

 

[lostfan]

Forget just regionalism - Chicagoans tend to be huge proponents of their own city's greatness beyond what I've seen from any others aside from New York.

Ha, this is so true, I tried explaining this to my wife. My brother went out and got a tattoo with what he called the 7 most recognizable buildings written over "My City" on one of his shoulders, and my wife was wondering why he loved the city so much he had to do that, and why I talk about the city so often. She's never met anyone else like that and I told her we weren't unique.

 

New York is the only other place that rivals Chicago for civic pride, and to a lesser extent, Atlanta is like that too, maybe Southern Californians. You won't hear someone from Cleveland, Philly, Boston etc. sounding like that.

[YASNY]

I'm not going to argue any of this is blatently inaccurate, although I wasn't an Obama supporter and still feel good about myself and know I'm not prejudice, and I don't think racism doesn't exist in the north. I go to NIU, and we've had our own race issues personally, so I know it exists up here for a fact, plus I know Chicago isn't the greatest example of racial harmony either. The only point I've tried to make in this entire thread is that the fact that the ONLY part of America that saw a patterned and noticeable shift further towards the republican party (according to several statistical maps) in the presidential election was in the south. Combining that fact with the history of the south and even the current times in the south would lead you to logically conclude that race was a small factor in the voting patterns down there. A small factor (the shift was only a handful of points even in the areas where it went to the right the most), but a factor nontheless.

 

If the map had looked different for voting patterns, showing that only the great lakes or rust belt had voted more for the republican candidate this year than in 2004, I would be saying something like "wow, it's not the only factor in these numbers, but race problems in my area of the country are worse than I'd have ever guessed". But that's not how the numbers shook out so that's not what I said.

 

But you made a point to point that out, but totally ignored that fact that 97% of the black voters voted for Obama. Which is a way of saying that southerners are racists bastards and the overwhelming majority of blacks voting for Obama is justified because he was the first opportunity to vote for one of their own. Well, I see that as racist as well. And the fact that Obama's father was from Kenya means that Obama is not a decendant of a slave so he really doesn't have that connection with the majority of the African-American citizens of this nation. He's another of the elitists that have been running this nation since it's inception. He's distantly related to Dick Cheney and he fits right in with the fact that the majority of the US presidents have had royal blood running through their veins. Obama is not any different than the rest other than the fact his skin tone is not what we are used to. He's cut from the same cloth.

[whitesoxfan101]

Ha, this is so true, I tried explaining this to my wife. My brother went out and got a tattoo with what he called the 7 most recognizable buildings written over "My City" on one of his shoulders, and my wife was wondering why he loved the city so much he had to do that, and why I talk about the city so often. She's never met anyone else like that and I told her we weren't unique.

 

New York is the only other place that rivals Chicago for civic pride, and to a lesser extent, Atlanta is like that too, maybe Southern Californians. You won't hear someone from Cleveland, Philly, Boston etc. sounding like that.

 

Absolutely, and the reason we Chicagoans think we're better than everybody else is......well, WE ARE better than everybody else.

Edited November 19, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[YASNY]

No, they aren't.

[whitesoxfan101]

But you made a point to point that out, but totally ignored that fact that 97% of the black voters voted for Obama. Which is a way of saying that southerners are racists bastards and the overwhelming majority of blacks voting for Obama is justified because he was the first opportunity to vote for one of their own. Well, I see that as racist as well. And the fact that Obama's father was from Kenya means that Obama is not a decendant of a slave so he really doesn't have that connection with the majority of the African-American citizens of this nation. He's another of the elitists that have been running this nation since it's inception. He's distantly related to Dick Cheney and he fits right in with the fact that the majority of the US presidents have had royal blood running through their veins. Obama is not any different than the rest other than the fact his skin tone is not what we are used to. He's cut from the same cloth.

 

I believe 93 percent of blacks voted for Kerry. So there was a small shift to Obama from the black vote due to his color, just as there was a small percent of white people who voted for McCain due to his color. I'm not denying that this exists on both sides at all. My only point is the fact that the numbers also show that the shift to McCain happened almost exclusively in the south, and you know the rest.

 

No, they aren't.

 

It was a joke sir. You know, ha ha, funny?

Edited November 19, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[YASNY]

I know what I have experienced in my life. Racism is just as prevelent from the blacks as it is from the whites. You can use all the stats you want to you, but I've been around for a while and I've seen it and lived it. On that note, I'm out of here.

[southsider2k5]

I believe 93 percent of blacks voted for Kerry. So there was a small shift to Obama from the black vote due to his color, just as there was a small percent of white people who voted for McCain due to his color. I'm not denying that this exists on both sides at all. My only point is the fact that the numbers also show that the shift to McCain happened almost exclusively in the south, and you know the rest.

 

 

 

It was a joke sir. You know, ha ha, funny?

 

 

I don't remember where it was posted, but it seems to be me like the areas that had the biggest moves towards Obama were in the North and is more minority populated areas.

[whitesoxfan101]

I know what I have experienced in my life. Racism is just as prevelent from the blacks as it is from the whites. You can use all the stats you want to you, but I've been around for a while and I've seen it and lived it. On that note, I'm out of here.

 

I just said the "vote due to race" issue was pretty close to even on both sides with that stat i presented, which pretty much agrees with you.

 

I don't remember where it was posted, but it seems to be me like the areas that had the biggest moves towards Obama were in the North and is more minority populated areas.

 

I won't argue that being possible, but it seems the "black who voted for Obama because he was black" group was much more spread out nationwide than their counterparts. I would be glad to be proven wrong if stats for the black vote in a certain area like the ones for the southern white vote early in this thread exist though.

Edited November 19, 2008 by whitesoxfan101