ESPN radio reporting Mets/White Sox talks heating up...

[caulfield12]

Even if the sox wind up trading Dye, Jenks, Vazquez, hell, even Konerko, they aren't rebuilding in the sense of writing off 2009. They are trying to compete in 2009 and for the long term by getting younger, better players with upside. This is like the Twins plus. The Twins build around Morneau and Mauer, with strong pitching, defense and contact hitters. The sox can build around Quentin and Alexei, and now Viciedo, and Beckham, with strong pitching, solid defense and guys who can hit for avg and power, and still run the bases some. If the sox add a Fernando Martinez to the mix, that's a very strong core to have in place for years.

 

If the sox add a Pelfrey and Edwin Jackson, to Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, and Poreda, with a variety of bullpen arms, that's a strong starting pitching staff as well that can compete for a few years.

 

 

From reading many articles, it seems that there is a very good chance that we deal Fields and/or Vazquez before ST. Now I'm not sure why KW wouldn't at least want to give Fields spring training to re-establish his value and show other teams that he's 100%. Unless they simply have already decided (Ozzie and KW) he is never going to fit their plans and be adequate defensively AND he won't be able to make the transition to LF AND get rid of the hitch in his swing (see Borchard, Joe).

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Even if the sox wind up trading Dye, Jenks, Vazquez, hell, even Konerko, they aren't rebuilding in the sense of writing off 2009. They are trying to compete in 2009 and for the long term by getting younger, better players with upside. This is like the Twins plus. The Twins build around Morneau and Mauer, with strong pitching, defense and contact hitters. The sox can build around Quentin and Alexei, and now Viciedo, and Beckham, with strong pitching, solid defense and guys who can hit for avg and power, and still run the bases some. If the sox add a Fernando Martinez to the mix, that's a very strong core to have in place for years.

 

If the sox add a Pelfrey and Edwin Jackson, to Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, and Poreda, with a variety of bullpen arms, that's a strong starting pitching staff as well that can compete for a few years.

Also remember that if the trade all those guys for young players, they will be adding payroll somewhere. They raised ticket prices. They have always said what goes in comes out. They wouldn't trim $30 million to $40 off their payroll, raise ticket prices and call it a day after a Central Division title. No way. There is something very big coming.

[beck72]

From reading many articles, it seems that there is a very good chance that we deal Fields and/or Vazquez before ST. Now I'm not sure why KW wouldn't at least want to give Fields spring training to re-establish his value and show other teams that he's 100%. Unless they simply have already decided (Ozzie and KW) he is never going to fit their plans and be adequate defensively AND he won't be able to make the transition to LF AND get rid of the hitch in his swing (see Borchard, Joe).

I think that's the case.

 

I give Kenny credit. He's willing to cut his losses and check his ego in order to field the best team possible. The Swisher trade is the perfect example. He gave up a ton to acquire him and got little back in return-all in the course of a year.

[caulfield12]

Well, seemingly a ton, 3 of our top 5 prospects. Then again, our system is/was so weak, that's a little bit telling.

 

Maybe DLS had one fluke season before going down with possibly a career-ending injury. He was still 2-3 years away. We all know about Sweeney and Gonzalez...Sweeney might turn into a poor man's David DeJesus, but where would he be starting if we still had him?

 

CF? I think not, although some want to believe he could play that position adequately, I've seen enough of that with Mackowiak, Griffey and Swisher to last me 20 years.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I think that's the case.

 

I give Kenny credit. He's willing to cut his losses and check his ego in order to field the best team possible. The Swisher trade is the perfect example. He gave up a ton to acquire him and got little back in return-all in the course of a year.

To get Swisher he gave up:

DLS, a possible SP prospect but most likely a closer prospect

Gio, a SP prospect

Sweeney, who IMO is a 4th OF that could still develop into a starter

 

Then in trading Swisher he got:

Nunez, a possible SP prospect but most likely a closer prospect

Marquez, a SP prospect

Betemit, a UT player who could still become an everday player, but it is unlikely he ever gets the playing time for it

 

1. DLS has better stuff than Nunez, but DLS missed all last season after injury and Nunez is closer to the Majors. It depends on where DLS is at recovery-wise, but right now Nunez is the best bet to help us.

 

2. Gio has a better curveball and is lefthanded, but it sounds like Marquez has a pretty good sinker and a better change. Gio is a strikeout pitcher though he's always drawn criticism for being smaller than one would like, although to this point the durability concerns haven't been an issue at all. Marquez's criticism is that he doesn't have a strikeout pitch, but Kenny has said that the Sox feel they can make changes there to up his K numbers. Both struggled last year making jumps to higher levels. Marquez, because he's a sinkerballer, may be a better fit to stick in a rotation at the Cell assuming the Sox are successful in making some changes. Gio OTOH could have picked up a cutter just like Danks, and he has the downside of a nasty lefty setup man. Because Gio would have given the Sox a fallback option I say overall Gio would be the better fit, but it's not like Gio is some baseball messiah and Marquez is utter trash. We could realistically be comparing another Jon Garland to another Damaso Marte, which then brings up the debate of who is better, the guy who provides 180-210 IP at the back of a rotation and keeps his team in games, or the nasty setup guy who pitches a lot less but saves games in the back of the pen?

 

3. Sweeney would be a capable starting CF for the Sox right now, and Betemit may be a capable starting 3B as he's always shown flashes but has never been given a full season to play. The difference is that Sweeney probably doesn't get a shot at CF here and Betemit probably never gets a shot at starting, so we're comparing a 4th OF that is good enough to play somewhat regularly to a UT man who is good enough to play somewhat regularly. In hindsight, I'd rather have Sweeney because we'd fill a CF hole, but Betemit does have a slim outside shot of making the team as a starter in ST if Fields can't field and Viciedo can't hit MLB pitching. Either way, Sweeney or Betemit as starters are not long-term answers for the Sox at any position, at least that's how it looks right now, so it's not like we lost some vital part of our future here.

 

Overall, I think it's safe to say we got back less talent on paper than we gave up, but again, it's not like we traded the future of the Sox franchise and then got back a bunch of trash in return. Would we have been better off not making the Swisher deal? Possibly, but only if we'd traded for another player. It looks like Kenny was smart to sell high on both Gio and DLS, but as it turns out we traded for a baseball player and ended up with a hairstylist. Hindsight tells us that, since Fields was coming off a huge year, we should have offered Fields plus the Swisher package to the Reds for Hamilton, but I guess we can't go back and ask for a do-over there. Oh well. But if you look at it in terms of us keeping the guys we traded and then comparing them to what we got back, IMO it's not as big of a drop-off as the board will make it seem. Up to this point, no player involved in these Swisher deals can be expected to make the type of impact Kenny thought Swisher would make.

[harfman77]

I wouldn't count on FMart ever playing for the Sox if he were acquired, KW is just as likely to take him and spin him to someone else. KW does not like to leave players of value in the minors when he can turn them into something that can help on the ML level. I could see KW turning Martinez to the Orioles for Roberts and trading Fields for a CF.

[beck72]

To get Swisher he gave up:

DLS, a possible SP prospect but most likely a closer prospect

Gio, a SP prospect

Sweeney, who IMO is a 4th OF that could still develop into a starter

 

Then in trading Swisher he got:

Nunez, a possible SP prospect but most likely a closer prospect

Marquez, a SP prospect

Betemit, a UT player who could still become an everday player, but it is unlikely he ever gets the playing time for it

 

1. DLS has better stuff than Nunez, but DLS missed all last season after injury and Nunez is closer to the Majors. It depends on where DLS is at recovery-wise, but right now Nunez is the best bet to help us.

 

2. Gio has a better curveball and is lefthanded, but it sounds like Marquez has a pretty good sinker and a better change. Gio is a strikeout pitcher though he's always drawn criticism for being smaller than one would like, although to this point the durability concerns haven't been an issue at all. Marquez's criticism is that he doesn't have a strikeout pitch, but Kenny has said that the Sox feel they can make changes there to up his K numbers. Both struggled last year making jumps to higher levels. Marquez, because he's a sinkerballer, may be a better fit to stick in a rotation at the Cell assuming the Sox are successful in making some changes. Gio OTOH could have picked up a cutter just like Danks, and he has the downside of a nasty lefty setup man. Because Gio would have given the Sox a fallback option I say overall Gio would be the better fit, but it's not like Gio is some baseball messiah and Marquez is utter trash. We could realistically be comparing another Jon Garland to another Damaso Marte, which then brings up the debate of who is better, the guy who provides 180-210 IP at the back of a rotation and keeps his team in games, or the nasty setup guy who pitches a lot less but saves games in the back of the pen?

 

3. Sweeney would be a capable starting CF for the Sox right now, and Betemit may be a capable starting 3B as he's always shown flashes but has never been given a full season to play. The difference is that Sweeney probably doesn't get a shot at CF here and Betemit probably never gets a shot at starting, so we're comparing a 4th OF that is good enough to play somewhat regularly to a UT man who is good enough to play somewhat regularly. In hindsight, I'd rather have Sweeney because we'd fill a CF hole, but Betemit does have a slim outside shot of making the team as a starter in ST if Fields can't field and Viciedo can't hit MLB pitching. Either way, Sweeney or Betemit as starters are not long-term answers for the Sox at any position, at least that's how it looks right now, so it's not like we lost some vital part of our future here.

 

Overall, I think it's safe to say we got back less talent on paper than we gave up, but again, it's not like we traded the future of the Sox franchise and then got back a bunch of trash in return. Would we have been better off not making the Swisher deal? Possibly, but only if we'd traded for another player. It looks like Kenny was smart to sell high on both Gio and DLS, but as it turns out we traded for a baseball player and ended up with a hairstylist. Hindsight tells us that, since Fields was coming off a huge year, we should have offered Fields plus the Swisher package to the Reds for Hamilton, but I guess we can't go back and ask for a do-over there. Oh well. But if you look at it in terms of us keeping the guys we traded and then comparing them to what we got back, IMO it's not as big of a drop-off as the board will make it seem. Up to this point, no player involved in these Swisher deals can be expected to make the type of impact Kenny thought Swisher would make.

Kenny Williams has done a very solid job of evaluating the talent that is already in the sox organization. Few players that he has traded have had above average careers.

 

My point I was making was that it is to his credit that he would admit his mistake in acquiring Swisher and trading him so soon. He didn't go on an ego trip and try and stick with Swisher another year just to try and salvage his own reputation. I think the players KW got should help in some respect.

[beck72]

Also remember that if the trade all those guys for young players, they will be adding payroll somewhere. They raised ticket prices. They have always said what goes in comes out. They wouldn't trim $30 million to $40 off their payroll, raise ticket prices and call it a day after a Central Division title. No way. There is something very big coming.

Even if there isn't a big player coming, I like the idea of retooling both the lineup and pitching while staying competitve. The 2009 sox would have a similar "floor" as the 2008 squad but a much greater "ceiling" in 09 and beyond if these players [like FMart and Pelfrey] come the sox way.

[beck72]

I wouldn't count on FMart ever playing for the Sox if he were acquired, KW is just as likely to take him and spin him to someone else. KW does not like to leave players of value in the minors when he can turn them into something that can help on the ML level. I could see KW turning Martinez to the Orioles for Roberts and trading Fields for a CF.

If Dye were traded to the Rays and the sox got Edwin Jackson, he I could see moved in a deal for a vet [such as for DeJesus]. Then he goes to LF, Quentin to RF, and you deal for Taveras to man CF and hit 9th. Martinez has the kind of upside you keep and let progress for another year in the minors and come up the same time ith Beckham.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Even if there isn't a big player coming, I like the idea of retooling both the lineup and pitching while staying competitve. The 2009 sox would have a similar "floor" as the 2008 squad but a much greater "ceiling" in 09 and beyond if these players [like FMart and Pelfrey] come the sox way.

Agreed, but I don't think there's any substance to all this stuff anymore. I have to believe Pelfrey is the exact type of player Kenny would want and if Pelfrey was really on the table, and discussions really were heated, Kenny would have completed this somehow before Levineline even mentioned it. I really don't see Kenny haggling over some comparatively small detail like Murphy or Heilman. If Pelfrey is out there, and you're getting Martinez too, just go ahead and do it. IMO Pelfrey going forward is the best player in the deal.

 

Also, I really have to question where Bruce Levineline gets his information. Even the fans on the boards here pretty much figured the guy to be unavailable. Maybe Pelfrey was an early counteroffer from Kenny, but I don't think "heated discussions" happen around that guy unless the Mets are either really stupid or pessimistic about him or the Sox are giving up a package that is greater than Javy and Jenks. Kunz and Parnell have been mentioned, and maybe the real discussions are centered around Javy + Jenks for Martinez, Murphy, Kunz/Parnell, and Heilman. That's a considerably weaker package though, and I would definitely shop around if a package like that was what was really being offered.

[RockRaines]

This rumor is pure smoke screen.

[beck72]

This sounds like a back up plan if the Mets don't land KRod. See what the money and years are, and if they can't land KRod, get Jenks. He's the next best option out there for closer, via trade or free agency. Doesn't sound too out there. The "Jenks has lost MPH on his FB", "declining K rate" talk might be from other teams to lower the cost of Jenks. Yet he's a better bet than Fuentes. And even Krod has some injury concerns.

[nitetrain8601]

This sounds like a back up plan if the Mets don't land KRod. See what the money and years are, and if they can't land KRod, get Jenks. He's the next best option out there for closer, via trade or free agency. Doesn't sound too out there. The "Jenks has lost MPH on his FB", "declining K rate" talk might be from other teams to lower the cost of Jenks. Yet he's a better bet than Fuentes. And even Krod has some injury concerns.

 

 

Actually the whole declining speed on his fastball and declining k rate comes from soxtalk posters as well. It's a valid concern.

[witesoxfan]

This sounds like a back up plan if the Mets don't land KRod. See what the money and years are, and if they can't land KRod, get Jenks. He's the next best option out there for closer, via trade or free agency. Doesn't sound too out there. The "Jenks has lost MPH on his FB", "declining K rate" talk might be from other teams to lower the cost of Jenks. Yet he's a better bet than Fuentes. And even Krod has some injury concerns.

 

I don't quite understand how Jenks is a better bet than Fuentes. Fuentes has been rock solid the past 4 seasons in Colorado.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I don't quite understand how Jenks is a better bet than Fuentes. Fuentes has been rock solid the past 4 seasons in Colorado.

Jenks is manlier.

[BaseballNick]

I don't quite understand how Jenks is a better bet than Fuentes. Fuentes has been rock solid the past 4 seasons in Colorado.

 

Fuentes was demoted from the closer's role in Colorado. I wouldn't say he was rock solid.

[Sox It To Em]

So basically all these rumors amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

I dont understand why people go nuts over rumored trades involving the White Sox. KW works under the radar!

[caulfield12]

I don't quite understand how Jenks is a better bet than Fuentes. Fuentes has been rock solid the past 4 seasons in Colorado.

 

 

Simply because the Mets have concerns about how Fuentes would do pitching in the crucible of NYC...Jenks has succeeded on the highest level (World Series/playoffs) and already is in a pretty massive media market, third only to LA and NYC.

 

Many of those saves were for Rockies teams that were the White Sox equivalent of Kip Wells dominating inferior NL opponents five years ago after he was traded...could Kip have done the same thing in Chicago he did for 2-3 years in Pittsburgh, or Fogg? Well, we will never know for sure, but most doubt it strongly.

[beck72]

 

Actually the whole declining speed on his fastball and declining k rate comes from soxtalk posters as well. It's a valid concern.

Actually, he's been pitching to contact more, as his pitches per inning have been deceasing. His GB rate has also inreased. And he was pitching in the mid 90's and above by the end of the year. His ERA has been decreasing as he's become more than just a thrower.

Edited November 22, 2008 by beck72

[beck72]

I don't quite understand how Jenks is a better bet than Fuentes. Fuentes has been rock solid the past 4 seasons in Colorado.

Caufield made a few points. Jenks is also 6 years younger, has thrown in and won a World series, and has shown he can handle the pressures of pitching in a large city. Fuentes is also going to want a 4, 5 year contract. And he has a lot more innings on his arm than bobby.

 

New York demands a winner. Bobby is a winner, if he stays healthy. Fuentes is more of an unknown

[Chisoxfn]

Agreed, but I don't think there's any substance to all this stuff anymore. I have to believe Pelfrey is the exact type of player Kenny would want and if Pelfrey was really on the table, and discussions really were heated, Kenny would have completed this somehow before Levineline even mentioned it. I really don't see Kenny haggling over some comparatively small detail like Murphy or Heilman. If Pelfrey is out there, and you're getting Martinez too, just go ahead and do it. IMO Pelfrey going forward is the best player in the deal.

 

Also, I really have to question where Bruce Levineline gets his information. Even the fans on the boards here pretty much figured the guy to be unavailable. Maybe Pelfrey was an early counteroffer from Kenny, but I don't think "heated discussions" happen around that guy unless the Mets are either really stupid or pessimistic about him or the Sox are giving up a package that is greater than Javy and Jenks. Kunz and Parnell have been mentioned, and maybe the real discussions are centered around Javy + Jenks for Martinez, Murphy, Kunz/Parnell, and Heilman. That's a considerably weaker package though, and I would definitely shop around if a package like that was what was really being offered.

I know first hand that the Sox are very high on Pelfrey. They have tried to acquire him in the past and I wouldn't be shocked at all if they are trying to acquire him right now. He's already a league average starter, if not above average, and has all of the tools to be a #2 type of guy for a long time. Honestly, I could totally live with Pelfrey/Martinez because you are talking about two potential cornerstone players, one who is already producing at the big league level. I still believe to get fairer value a 3rd player is needed but you also have to look at how much value cash is worth now-a-days and the Sox would be saving significant cash.

[caulfield12]

Caufield made a few points. Jenks is also 6 years younger, has thrown in and won a World series, and has shown he can handle the pressures of pitching in a large city. Fuentes is also going to want a 4, 5 year contract. And he has a lot more innings on his arm than bobby.

 

New York demands a winner. Bobby is a winner, if he stays healthy. Fuentes is more of an unknown

 

Good article by Merkin with lots of good stuff from Don Cooper has all the compelling arguments one needs for BBBJ.

 

should be a good link

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...sp&c_id=cws

 

 

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...sp&c_id=cws

Edited November 22, 2008 by caulfield12

[Chisoxfn]

 

Actually the whole declining speed on his fastball and declining k rate comes from soxtalk posters as well. It's a valid concern.

I would have figured Jenks would have shut everyone up in the post-season/very end of the regular season when his velocity was up a couple mph. He always talks about how he still has it and all of us kind of doubted it but I quickly shut my mouth after seeing him throw gas in the post-season (albeit I'd have liked to see more of him in the playoffs).

[Chisoxfn]

I don't quite understand how Jenks is a better bet than Fuentes. Fuentes has been rock solid the past 4 seasons in Colorado.

Jenks is legit, very legit. He's young and has phenomenal stuff. A lot of us Sox fans underestimate Bobby Jenks. I've watched Krod for years and Rodriguez has a nasty slider but I'd take Jenks over him (and there aren't many guys I'd take over Krod). Sure Krod is a bit over-rated, but he's still one of the best in the biz (Papleboner, Nathan, Rivera are 3 guys that are hands down better than Bobby/Krod/Putz).