ESPN radio reporting Mets/White Sox talks heating up...

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

i think you're going to see the Mets venture into free agency a bit before they take a deal like this. They are probably talking to the Rockies (Street), Astros (Valverde), and Mariners (Putz) about deals as well. I imagine that once we see a few of these closers find their new homes that the dominos will fall rather quickly. If the Mets don't like the price tags of the free agent closers and want to spend their money elsewhere (Manny?) they might find is a better solution to trade for Jenks and Vazquez. Then again, what do i know.

 

I think the Winter Meetings will be the stage to monitor. A lot of the offseasons initial movements are made then and I can foresee a scenario where a few of the SP's and CL's go off the market during the meetings, with the Mets missing on them, and Minaya coming to KW and revisiting the discussions they had regarding Jenks/Dye/Vazquez/whomever....

 

The Mets are under a lot of pressure to produce this coming season, being that they've narrowly missed the last 2 years, and Minaya will take the blame if they fail again, thus you can assume that if the chips start falling and he's not getting his piece that he'll make some moves against convention, which i believe this deal with the White Sox to be, and which is why i believe that it's not all that unlikely that Pelfrey, Murphy/Heilman, F Martinez will be White Sox come next year...

 

i tihnk patience is the key here...

You could very well be right, although I doubt they'll deal Pelfrey. A lot of what the Sox may do could also be dependent upon where Peavy goes. The best deal for the Sox is probably the Angels, because 1) that could take the Angels out of the Texiera sweepstakes and open the door for a Dye or Paulie deal, 2) it keeps the Cubs from getting him and taking some thunder away from Kenny's offseason, and 3) it now makes Houston and Atlanta suitors for Javy (although I don't know if Houston would have or be willing to deal what we'd want).

[RockRaines]

So back to the original deal involving Vazquez and Jenks to the Mets... Anymore talk going on anywhere about this, or has it died down?

It was and will always be a smokescreen.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

wow this is really heating up. haha

 

Jermaine Dye-OF-White Sox Nov. 25 - 1:04 am et

 

The White Sox are open to trading Jermaine Dye, but they want a young starting pitcher and additional players in return, says FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal.

 

Dye is coming off one of his better seasons, but he will turn 35 this winter and he's not cheap at $11.5 million for next year. If the White Sox can really get a quality return for him, they should make the trade and seek to get younger in the outfield. However, according to Rosenthal, the Mets, Rays and Phillies have already declined to pay the price the White Sox are looking for.

Source: FOXSports.com

 

[caulfield12]

Well, obviously KW is not going to give Jenks, Dye and Vazquez away like he did with Swisher...seemingly.

 

I guess with the Rays, Reid Brignac has kind of fallen back....as a SS prospect. It's interesting, though, with Ramirez around, why they are trying to acquire a young shortstop? (Besides the obvious fact it's one of the most important positions on the field and Valido and Andy Gonzalez, not to mention Pedro Lopez and Dellaero and Caruso were are flops). But, with Alexei, we should have that position covered for at least the next three years. We also have Beckham, who potentially could play there but whose range is better suited for 2B in all likelihood.

[witesoxfan]

I love Alexei as much as anybody, but Cheat brought up a point on his blog a while back...he basically looked back on the fact that it appeared the White Sox had their SS of the future in Juan Uribe, who coincidentally played 2B in 04, and he turned into garbage. Juan Uribe also had a better year in 2004 than Alexei did in 08, though Alexei had a slightly better contact rate.

 

Not predicting doom and gloom, just suggesting it might not all be roses for Alexei in the future, no matter how much fun he was this past season.

[caulfield12]

When has Brignac been linked at all? Who said the Sox were going after him?

 

 

Just the part in the blurb about the Sox looking for a SS prospect and starting pitcher (young). With the Rays, that means Brignac...Edwin Jackson/Davis/Niemann. KW, I'm sure, wouldn't settle for Niemann or Neimann or whatever his name is...

[Kalapse]

Just the part in the blurb about the Sox looking for a SS prospect and starting pitcher (young). With the Rays, that means Brignac...Edwin Jackson/Davis/Niemann. KW, I'm sure, wouldn't settle for Niemann or Neimann or whatever his name is...

Assuming you're talking about Rosenthal's column (I don't know to what else you could be referring), he didn't mention anything about the Sox seeking a shortstop prospect. He merely mentioned "a young starting pitcher plus additional players". Nothing about a shortstop. here's exactly what he wrote:

 

To Dye for?

 

The White Sox are asking teams for a young starting pitcher plus additional players for right fielder Jermaine Dye. The Mets, Rays and Phillies are among the teams balking at such a price.

 

Dye, earning $11.5 million in the final year of his contract, amounts to a one-season rental. He can block trades to six clubs, most of which are in the northeast, according to a major-league source.

 

One potentially interested executive said his team was concerned that Dye batted only .210 with runners in scoring position and two outs last season — 36 points below the American League average.

[caulfield12]

I love Alexei as much as anybody, but Cheat brought up a point on his blog a while back...he basically looked back on the fact that it appeared the White Sox had their SS of the future in Juan Uribe, who coincidentally played 2B in 04, and he turned into garbage. Juan Uribe also had a better year in 2004 than Alexei did in 08, though Alexei had a slightly better contact rate.

 

Not predicting doom and gloom, just suggesting it might not all be roses for Alexei in the future, no matter how much fun he was this past season.

 

 

However, Uribe had hit .300, .240 and .253 in an offensive paradise before that season...his overall numbers were really carried by the first two months of the season, when he was hitting around .400 or higher for most of that period.

 

Ramirez has faster hands and makes better adjustments on breaking stuff. I think he will end up making a lot more contact and getting many more infield hits with bunts and choppers than Uribe going forward.

 

23 HR/502 AB URIBE (2004)

21 HR/480 AB Ramirez (2008)

 

However, if you look at both of their seasons, Uribe really tailed off at the end, and went back to his .247 AVG, 20+ HR's, 70+ RBI's self for the following three seasons. And that still wasn't bad. It wasn't until after his third so-so season in a row that KW went out and replaced him.

 

But (for Alexei) let's take away the first two months because of the cold (first time playing in it), inconsistent playing time and a general "adjustment period" for a foreign ballplayer in the US without having the advantage of any time in the minors.

 

That gives you 390 at-bats, 19 homers/390 AB's and a much more impressive 70 RBI's in just 390 at-bats....hitting out of different spots in the line-up, some that were not conducive to RBI production.

 

That also pencils out at 117 for 390, or a .300 AVERAGE. Also keep in mind it was his first season in the states, and the season in Cuba is much shorter...he noticeably wore down in August and September (partially because of his smaller/slight frame) and it also led to some defensive lapses as well (IMO).

 

I'm sure you could do this with Alexei as well, but Juan had that MON. game with 7 RBI's, that won't happen again.

Edited November 25, 2008 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

Rosenthal's full column, including the Dye bits, and a mention about the Mets' jesitation over Havy.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Rosenthal's full column, including the Dye bits, and a mention about the Mets' jesitation over Havy.

This part makes me wonder:

 

The Mets, in search of starting pitching as well as a closer, aren't enamored with the White Sox's Javier Vazquez, who lasted only one season with the Yankees. Rays right-hander Andy Sonnanstine, a strike thrower and dogged competitor, represents a more desirable target, but the Rays are forever reluctant to trade pitching. The Mets are intent on adding players who can handle New York ...

 

In what world is Andy Sonnanstine a more desirable target than Javy Vazquez? Am I the only one who can't understand why teams like this guy? He throws strikes with his junk and changes speeds on it. I'd rather not give up any talent and sign Paul Byrd, who BTW looks like a cross between Kelsey Grammer and a turkey.

[RockRaines]

This part makes me wonder:

 

 

 

In what world is Andy Sonnanstine a more desirable target than Javy Vazquez? Am I the only one who can't understand why teams like this guy? He throws strikes with his junk and changes speeds on it. I'd rather not give up any talent and sign Paul Byrd, who BTW looks like a cross between Kelsey Grammer and a turkey.

Its the New York Media's way of driving down the price of a starter.

[Balta1701]

In what world is Andy Sonnanstine a more desirable target than Javy Vazquez? Am I the only one who can't understand why teams like this guy? He throws strikes with his junk and changes speeds on it. I'd rather not give up any talent and sign Paul Byrd, who BTW looks like a cross between Kelsey Grammer and a turkey.

In the world where he still was pre-arbitration and made $395k this year.

[witesoxfan]

In the world where he still was pre-arbitration and made $395k this year.

 

+1

[Jordan4life_2007]

This part makes me wonder:

 

 

 

In what world is Andy Sonnanstine a more desirable target than Javy Vazquez? Am I the only one who can't understand why teams like this guy? He throws strikes with his junk and changes speeds on it. I'd rather not give up any talent and sign Paul Byrd, who BTW looks like a cross between Kelsey Grammer and a turkey.

 

Dude, the word has long been out on Javy. He's a loser. End of story. He'll take the ball every fifth day and look filthy at times, but when it's time to man up, well, we all know. The Mets are trying to overcome two consecutive chokes. Javy's not the guy you sign to do that. I personally think we're stuck with him.

 

[Princess Dye]

Dude, the word has long been out on Javy. He's a loser. End of story. He'll take the ball every fifth day and look filthy at times, but when it's time to man up, well, we all know. The Mets are trying to overcome two consecutive chokes. Javy's not the guy you sign to do that. I personally think we're stuck with him.

 

As horrible as it looks right now, when a guy has stuff there's that occasional case where a guy comes out, adds one thing to his arsenal and totally turns around a career. It happened with a far lesser talent on the Indians this very year.

 

I mean, that guy had previously fallen a lot farther than Javy ever has.

 

 

 

If we're really honest, would a trading team be taking a huge CHANCE or RISK on Javy? Not really, because even his low is still some level of dependability, and they're not locked in for tons of years.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[Jordan4life_2007]

As horrible as it looks right now, when a guy has stuff there's that occasional case where a guy comes out, adds one thing to his arsenal and totally turns around a career. It happened with a far lesser talent on the Indians this very year.

 

I mean, that guy had previously fallen a lot farther than Javy ever has.

 

 

 

If we're really honest, would a trading team be taking a huge CHANCE or RISK on Javy? Not really, because even his low is still some level of dependability, and they're not locked in for tons of years.

 

Yes, he's a dependable loser. I don't think any team is taking a huge chance or risk as you say. There's no mystery whatsoever regarding Javy. He's going to get you innings and strikeout a lot of guys. And he's also going to be wildly inconsistent and go dookie in his pants whenever he's faced with a legitimate challenge. I don't see us getting some ridiculous package, such as I'm sure Kenny is asking, for a proven loser who's overpaid. Doesn't help that the guy refuses to go to a west coast team, either. I hate when average dudes got that kinda power. That kinda pull should be reserved for star players only.

[bighurt4life]

Yes, he's a dependable loser. I don't think any team is taking a huge chance or risk as you say. There's no mystery whatsoever regarding Javy. He's going to get you innings and strikeout a lot of guys. And he's also going to be wildly inconsistent and go dookie in his pants whenever he's faced with a legitimate challenge. I don't see us getting some ridiculous package, such as I'm sure Kenny is asking, for a proven loser who's overpaid. Doesn't help that the guy refuses to go to a west coast team, either. I hate when average dudes got that kinda power. That kinda pull should be reserved for star players only.

 

Wasn't he our best pitcher for the entire month of August??? Also he has a 127-129 career W-L with 6 of those seasons being on very bad Expos teams. he's 48-46 since he joined the Sox. So I wouldn't go so far as to say that he's a proven loser. He's just someone who doesn't exactly step up in big games.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Wasn't he our best pitcher for the entire month of August??? Also he has a 127-129 career W-L with 6 of those seasons being on very bad Expos teams. he's 48-46 since he joined the Sox. So I wouldn't go so far as to say that he's a proven loser. He's just someone who doesn't exactly step up in big games.

 

Javy shines when the stakes are lowest. His best season with the Sox by far and away came in 2007, when we were out of it by June. The best season of his career came in 2003 when the Expos were out of it, I don't know, two weeks into the season. I'm sick of Javy's tired act. I think Ozzie is sick of him. I think Kenny is as well. But he obviously has to act like he really believes Javy's the s*** to get somebody to bite on a trade. And what's the difference in a proven loser and a guy, as you say, doesn't step up in big games? Sounds like the same thing to me.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Jordan4life

[BearSox]

I'll take Javy as my 4 or 5 any day of the week. He'll give us 200+ innings, .500 record, 4~ ERA, and for some stretches he'll be our best pitcher. Of course he can't be relied on for the biggest games of the year down the stretch, but he certainly can be a factor that makes those games possible.

 

People have gotta stop overreacting about how "bad" Javy actually is.

[bighurt4life]

Javy shines when the stakes are lowest. His best season with the Sox by far and away came in 2007, when we were out of it by June. The best season of his career came in 2003 when the Expos were out of it, I don't know, two weeks into the season. I'm sick of Javy's tired act. I think Ozzie is sick of him. I think Kenny is as well. But he obviously has to act like he really believes Javy's the s*** to get somebody to bite on a trade. And what's the difference in a proven loser and a guy, as you say, doesn't step up in big games? Sounds like the same thing to me.

 

Not saying that he's an elite pitcher or anything but he does get us wins and I think that his fantastic streak in august and early sept helped put us in position to make the postseason. That being said I want him gone just as much as the next guy. His act is getting tired, I don't really have any respect for him. I was just playing devil's advocate, he does have some positive attributes.

[scenario]

Everybody seems to have their own definition of what a 'big game' is when it comes to Javy.

 

I think his win against Cleveland on September 3rd was a very big game.

 

The Sox were reeling... having just lost 5 of their last 6 games... on the verge of getting swept by a very hot Cleveland team on the road... the Sox were tied in the standings with Minnesota...

 

Danks got knocked out in 4 innings the day before...

 

Buehrle got slapped around in 4 innings just before that...

 

And Javy stepped up, shut down the Tribe (in Cleveland) and put the Sox back in 1st place.

 

Anybody who suggests this was not a big game is kidding themselves.

Edited November 26, 2008 by scenario

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Everybody seems to have their own definition of what a 'big game' is when it comes to Javy.

 

I think his win against Cleveland on September 3rd was a very big game.

 

The Sox were reeling... having just lost 5 of their last 6 games... on the verge of getting swept by a very hot Cleveland team on the road... the Sox were tied in the standings with Minnesota...

 

Danks got knocked out in 4 innings the day before...

 

Buehrle got slapped around in 4 innings just before that...

 

And Javy stepped up, shut down the Tribe and put the Sox back in 1st place.

 

Anybody who suggests this was not a big game is kidding themselves.

Good post.

 

Javy is what he is. He's a streaky pitcher who does enough over the course of a season to put you in the playoff hunt. There has not been one year since Javy has been here where he has single-handedly cost us the playoffs. In '06 it was our bullpen, in '07 it was practically everything, and last year he ended the season on a horrid stretch, but was only made the #1 starter in the ALDS because 1) the Sox couldn't close the deal over Minny and set their playoff rotation, and 2) Jose went down, making the decision either the veteran in a horrid stretch or the inconsistent rookie who among other things was killed by the Royals earlier in the year.

 

Javy is simply a solid #3 starter who, when at his best, can put up a season like a #2. He has his faults, but all pitchers do. If we had CC Sabathia blowing playoff games for us there would be a large contingent saying the same things, that he's not a big game pitcher.

 

Personally I want Javy gone because I believe we need to continue getting younger and that the market will bare the type of haul that will make it worthwhile. For scraps, it's not worth it. Javy is on a below-market deal and his asking price will reflect that.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'll take Javy as my 4 or 5 any day of the week. He'll give us 200+ innings, .500 record, 4~ ERA, and for some stretches he'll be our best pitcher. Of course he can't be relied on for the biggest games of the year down the stretch, but he certainly can be a factor that makes those games possible.

 

People have gotta stop overreacting about how "bad" Javy actually is.

Exactly.

[striker]

I like Javy but I like hot stove even more so I'd love to see him traded for that reason

 

If I recall correctly, Javy had a couple games in either August or September where he took a no-no into the 5th. The guy can really be lights out but he always has that bad inning where he gives up 3-4 runs.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

In the world where he still was pre-arbitration and made $395k this year.

I see that his performance-to-cost ratio is very favorable, but I just don't know how anyone can deal real talent for him. With someone like Javy, yeah he makes a lot more money, but you still have the upside of a #2-like season with the downside of a #3/#4-type season. Sonnanstine just strikes me as the type of guy who is always on the edge of disaster, every single game, every single situation. At least Javy has the ability to take over a game and dominate.

 

I just don't know how any team can watch Andy Sonnanstine pitch and say, "You know what? I'm gonna go ahead and trade one of my best pitching prospects, a guy with twice the ceiling, for a junkballer who can spot his junk. That sounds like a great idea." Paul Byrd is capable of doing the same thing and doesn't cost any top talent, just tha cheddah. I don't even know if Byrd is a Type B free agent.