Sox still interested in Willy Taveras

[caulfield12]

Who would you rather have as a leadoff hitter? A guy with plus speed and a great batting eye who getz on base? Or a guy with ++ speed, strong defense, and a great arm?

 

IMO, Taveras has one problem that makes him ill equipped for the job.... he's not a good hitter. And I'm not terribly excited about making a guy whose claim to fame is good defense our next leadoff hitter.

 

Frankly, I don't see Taveras as being a significant upgrade over Owens. In fact, I think it's likely Owens could turn out to be a better offensive player.

 

I'm not a huge Anderson fan either, but I would put Brian out there in a second instead of Taveras as our starting CF.

 

(I suppose you could guess I'm not much a Taveras fan, eh?)

 

Willy Taveras, career minor league OBP=.370, OPS=.731

Chris Getz, career minor league OBP=.361, OPS=.741

 

Almost identical...but then you have to factor in the fact that Taveras has clear advantages in experience leading off, has better range/arm and WILL steal a lot more bases than Getz, putting him into scoring position more often and "boosting" the lower OPS number (essentially counting on 50-70 singles becoming doubles and triples...of course, counting caught stealing against him) essentially.

 

When I was in HS, I made up a number that took into account OBP and SLG but added in stolen bases - caught stealing and counted GIDP as two outs (penalizing the slow/plodding players). I can't remember my formula anymore, but Taveras would look significantly better than Getz using it.

 

For another comparison, Jerry Owens, career minor league OBP=.359, OPS=.717

 

Starting the season at age 28, it's possible Owens COULD improve...but will he? Based on what? It's still doubtful to me he or Anderson will ever get the at-bats to prove it. I guess we can use the UCLA WR theory, less experience playing baseball, etc. But eventually, we have to accept his limitations and ceiling. I'm sure KW already has, especially his lack of arm in CF. Does he really want to put Owens in LF and go after a superior CFer who will cost us either tons of money or talent, I doubt it.

 

Even if he turns out to be a disappointment, you're risking very little (a Broadway, McCulloch or Russell who will probably never be a starter at the MLB level) and the reward to improve this aspect of your team is too great to pass up. To me, the more competition you have on your team, with increased depth, the better off you are.

 

We have pretty good options all around the diamond if one of our starters breaks down...much, much better than things looked coming out of 2007.

Edited December 1, 2008 by caulfield12

[knightni]

It seems that it's okay to open this thread...for now.

 

Please be civil.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Can you explain to me with this reasoning why Gregor Blanco drew almost twice as many walks as Ryan Braun?

 

There comes a time when you look at players being "pitched around." There also comes a time when the statistics flat out tell you a story about a player. Willy Taveras is an aggressive hitter whose OBP depends entirely upon his average, and if he doesn't hit for a good average, he won't be a good player. It's as simple as that.

 

If Willy Taveras is the last ditch effort and the Sox trade for him in the middle of January, I'll understand. Willy Taveras should not be the major move for the White Sox this offseason.

Braun's K numbers make it look like he's got a giant hole in his swing somewhere and refuses to cut down his swing with two strikes. Blanco is more patient (sees .3 more pitches per AB) and I'm guessing he does a much better job fouling off pitches and staying alive in his AB's. If Braun is constantly chasing pitches outside of the strike zone somewhere then pitchers actually are pitching around him and instead of walking he's striking out. I haven't seen Braun play a lot so I don't know what he does, but if he's anything like Grady Sizemore or Ryan Howard in the way they always seem to chase the fastball up around the chest with two strikes then that would explain a lot. Basically, Braun's K to BB ratio seems to suggest that whatever he is doing, the scouting report on him has been correct for the last two years because he hasn't made adjustments. Blanco is probably just a smarter, more patient hitter who stays in his AB longer via a shorter 2-strike swing. If Braun ever cuts down on his K's enough to close the gap in his K to BB ratio like Blanco has for his last few minor league seasons and then last year, I guarantee Blanco doesn't walk more than Braun does.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Who would you rather have as a leadoff hitter? A guy with plus speed and a great batting eye who getz on base? Or a guy with ++ speed, strong defense, and a great arm?

 

IMO, Taveras has one problem that makes him ill equipped for the job.... he's not a good hitter. And I'm not terribly excited about making a guy whose claim to fame is good defense our next leadoff hitter.

 

Frankly, I don't see Taveras as being a significant upgrade over Owens. In fact, I think it's likely Owens could turn out to be a better offensive player.

 

I'm not a huge Anderson fan either, but I would put Brian out there in a second instead of Taveras as our starting CF.

 

(I suppose you could guess I'm not much a Taveras fan, eh?)

Then bat Taveras 9th and lead Getz off with Alexei hitting second. If Taveras rebounds here - which I think he will and was the point of this thread - then make the switch if Getz struggles.

 

Personally, I don't know why you'd want to throw a rookie in the lead-off slot instead of a veteran but whatever. Just end this damn argument. You guys are debating this like Taveras' 2006 and 2007 seasons never existed and his 2008 year was the norm. The whole point of this thread was to show significant regression in one particular area that suggest a confidence issue of some sort, which if changed would make him an overall more productive player all-around than he was in his best seasons.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Willy Taveras, career minor league OBP=.370, OPS=.731

Chris Getz, career minor league OBP=.361, OPS=.741

 

Almost identical...but then you have to factor in the fact that Taveras has clear advantages in experience leading off, has better range/arm and WILL steal a lot more bases than Getz, putting him into scoring position more often and "boosting" the lower OPS number (essentially counting on 50-70 singles becoming doubles and triples...of course, counting caught stealing against him) essentially.

 

When I was in HS, I made up a number that took into account OBP and SLG but added in stolen bases - caught stealing and counted GIDP as two outs (penalizing the slow/plodding players). I can't remember my formula anymore, but Taveras would look significantly better than Getz using it.

 

For another comparison, Jerry Owens, career minor league OBP=.359, OPS=.717

 

Starting the season at age 28, it's possible Owens COULD improve...but will he? Based on what? It's still doubtful to me he or Anderson will ever get the at-bats to prove it. I guess we can use the UCLA WR theory, less experience playing baseball, etc. But eventually, we have to accept his limitations and ceiling. I'm sure KW already has, especially his lack of arm in CF. Does he really want to put Owens in LF and go after a superior CFer who will cost us either tons of money or talent, I doubt it.

 

Even if he turns out to be a disappointment, you're risking very little (a Broadway, McCulloch or Russell who will probably never be a starter at the MLB level) and the reward to improve this aspect of your team is too great to pass up. To me, the more competition you have on your team, with increased depth, the better off you are.

 

We have pretty good options all around the diamond if one of our starters breaks down...much, much better than things looked coming out of 2007.

Thank you Caulfield. You've always been there to offer a helping hand to Willy Taveras when he has needed it. I salute Jordan4Life and BigHurt4Life equally as well.

[caulfield12]

Thank you Caulfield. You've always been there to offer a helping hand to Willy Taveras when he has needed it. I salute Jordan4Life and BigHurt4Life equally as well.

 

If I can't solve the political crisis here in Thailand, at least I can defend Willy Taveras, lol. It makes me feel a little better...I have a flight on December 21st to Manila for Christmas, looks like the odds are about 75% I will make it. Right now, there are approximately 350,000 stranded foreigners, the possibility of heightened violence in the upcoming days, or a military coup like 2006. Almost anything is possible.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Someone explain to me how Taveras is a better hitter than Anderson....cuz I don't see it.

Career MLB numbers:

Taveras, 26: 1973 AB; .283/.331/.337; 169-for-205 SB

Anderson, 26: 365 AB; .221/.277/.379; 10-for-18 SB

 

Brian has more power potential, Taveras has a better chance of hitting for average and getting on base at a better clip because of it. Taveras' numbers are down because of a career-worst year, but he has proven his abilities through four full seasons. Anderson has proven nothing at the Major League level.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If I can't solve the political crisis here in Thailand, at least I can defend Willy Taveras, lol. It makes me feel a little better...I have a flight on December 21st to Manila for Christmas, looks like the odds are about 75% I will make it. Right now, there are approximately 350,000 stranded foreigners, the possibility of heightened violence in the upcoming days, or a military coup like 2006. Almost anything is possible.

Ouch. Yeah I read about that. As long as you can focus on the important things in life, all will work itself out. Your countrymen need to forget about that ecomony stuff of whatever it is called, get their priorities straight, and start thinking more about Willy Taveras. X-mas is coming up for g-d sakes.

[caulfield12]

Ouch. Yeah I read about that. As long as you can focus on the important things in life, all will work itself out. Your countrymen need to forget about that ecomony stuff of whatever it is called, get their priorities straight, and start thinking more about Willy Taveras. X-mas is coming up for g-d sakes.

 

 

If you really want to impress everyone with your conviction (HAHA!), you'll invest in a #3 or #1 Willy Taveras Sox road jersey and make it your new display image.

 

Maybe you can take a picture of yourself and send it to KW as a helpful hint, and also wear it to SoxFest. That would get you some looks (if he wasn't yet on the White Sox roster)!

 

Buy genuine MLB game jerseys for ridiculous mark-ups. Boost the economy.

[ptatc]

If I can't solve the political crisis here in Thailand, at least I can defend Willy Taveras, lol. It makes me feel a little better...I have a flight on December 21st to Manila for Christmas, looks like the odds are about 75% I will make it. Right now, there are approximately 350,000 stranded foreigners, the possibility of heightened violence in the upcoming days, or a military coup like 2006. Almost anything is possible.

 

Good Luck. A friend of mine is in Cambodia and was supposed to fly out yesterday ending her research. However she is not sure when she can leave. Her lease was up and she was lucky to be able to stay with some other archaeologists. She isn't very optimistic about being able to return any time soon.

 

[Felix]

If you really want to impress everyone with your conviction (HAHA!), you'll invest in a #3 or #1 Willy Taveras Sox road jersey and make it your new display image.

I'm willing to bet just about everything and anything I own that we will never see Willy Taveras in a #3 White Sox jersey.

[caulfield12]

I'm willing to bet just about everything and anything I own that we will never see Willy Taveras in a #3 White Sox jersey.

 

No, you don't understand how deadlocked we've become. I think "kennylovesprospects" will go to Baines' house and personally implore him to "unretire" his number (it has happened before, there is precedent...just like Minosa coming back) so that we can acquire Willy Taveras and make him as comfortable as possible in his new Chicago surroundings.

 

Hey, it's possible. Not likely, though. I almost don't want to see another Sox player wear #1...to me, Lance Johnson was the only player to fit that jersey.

 

[caulfield12]

Good Luck. A friend of mine is in Cambodia and was supposed to fly out yesterday ending her research. However she is not sure when she can leave. Her lease was up and she was lucky to be able to stay with some other archaeologists. She isn't very optimistic about being able to return any time soon.

 

 

I was just in Phnom Penh about a month ago. Cambodia is a very beautiful country...especially Angkor Wat/Siem Reap.

 

However, nothing really prepares you for the "Killing Fields," it was almost as spooky to me as Auschwitz.

 

http://www.terragalleria.com/asia/cambodia...e.camb2951.html

 

This commercial break from the subprime mortgage crisis, Taveras debate, "recession" and Obama cabinet announcements brought to you by IBEW and Alex and Ursula Snelius.

Edited December 2, 2008 by caulfield12

[Felix]

Do we really need two open threads that are basically talking about the same exact topic between the same exact posters?

[knightni]

Nope!

[caulfield12]

Stand down, Taveras detractors!

 

Wave the White Flag and we will cease and desist our efforts.

[eickevinmorris]

Stand down, Taveras detractors!

 

Wave the White Flag and we will cease and desist our efforts.

I'm still waiting for a compelling argument against luck.

[ThunderBolt]

I'm still waiting for a compelling argument against luck.

Luck? When your top offensive comparison is Alex Cole, and a series of no hit/speedy guys you make your own luck!

[caulfield12]

I'm still waiting for a compelling argument against luck.

 

 

Actually watching the guy play would be one...instead of arguing completely based on 2008 and BABIP or whatever.

 

Obama is more likely to name Osama bin Laden Director of the Department of Homeland Security than KW is to go into Opening Day with Getz/Anderson/Ramirez leading off.

 

I can see the arguments for Owens, let's say they are "roughly equivalent," just for argument's sake.

 

But why wouldn't you want to have additional insurance...seeing how costly it is to go out and get a top leadoff hitter/CFer? How would/could it hurt?

 

Wouldn't it be better to have Taveras as the 4th/5th outfielder than to have Broadway, McCulloch or Russell wasting away in AAA?

 

What's the next argument, that would mean DeWayne Wise wouldn't be on the team? That Wise is better than Taveras?

 

Well, let's make DeWayne Wise the starting CFer and bat him leadoff. Problem solved...it's as logical as anything in this thread.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Luck? When your top offensive comparison is Alex Cole, and a series of no hit/speedy guys you make your own luck!

 

 

Alex Cole had a lifetime .360 OBP in the majors and a .711 OPS.

 

I think we would have taken that out of Orlando Cabrera last season in a heartbeat...

[eickevinmorris]

Actually watching the guy play would be one...instead of arguing completely based on 2008 and BABIP or whatever.

 

Obama is more likely to name Osama bin Laden Director of the Department of Homeland Security than KW is to go into Opening Day with Getz/Anderson/Ramirez leading off.

 

I can see the arguments for Owens, let's say they are "roughly equivalent," just for argument's sake.

 

But why wouldn't you want to have additional insurance...seeing how costly it is to go out and get a top leadoff hitter/CFer? How would/could it hurt?

 

Wouldn't it be better to have Taveras as the 4th/5th outfielder than to have Broadway, McCulloch or Russell wasting away in AAA?

 

What's the next argument, that would mean DeWayne Wise wouldn't be on the team? That Wise is better than Taveras?

 

Well, let's make DeWayne Wise the starting CFer and bat him leadoff. Problem solved...it's as logical as anything in this thread.

If all it took to get Taveras was two pieces of s*** like Broadway or McCulloch, he'd already be gone. Chances are, the Rockies are trying to bend KW over a barrel and make him give up something actually valuable.

 

Please, argue against luck, random variations in BABIP, etc.

[caulfield12]

Now we're saying that Taveras is being overvalued by the Rockies, even though he ended up as a bench player.

 

Many here would rather have Brian Anderson starting than Taveras...maybe KW will trade them straight up for each other. Or maybe Owens for Taveras, as some believe Owens will have a better career from here on out.

 

In the end, if you don't appreciate Taveras' skill set and what he brings to the table, then the only thing that will convince you is watching Getz fail before we come back to this thread in the future and everyone is complaining about why KW didn't get a "legit" leadoff hitter in the offseason, instead of being hung out to dry mid-year by another GM (due to desperation)!

 

[scenario]

Here's a search I did of all MLB players since 2005... with a minimum of 1500 plate appearances... ranked by OPS (from lowest to highest).

 

So... here are the 25 MLB regulars with the lowest OPS... with the worst shown first.

 

Read into it what you want...

 

Edited December 2, 2008 by scenario

[eickevinmorris]

Now we're saying that Taveras is being overvalued by the Rockies, even though he ended up as a bench player.

 

Many here would rather have Brian Anderson starting than Taveras...maybe KW will trade them straight up for each other. Or maybe Owens for Taveras, as some believe Owens will have a better career from here on out.

 

In the end, if you don't appreciate Taveras' skill set and what he brings to the table, then the only thing that will convince you is watching Getz fail before we come back to this thread in the future and everyone is complaining about why KW didn't get a "legit" leadoff hitter in the offseason, instead of being hung out to dry mid-year by another GM (due to desperation)!

People will still make that argument about Taveras. He's not a "legit" anything.

[SoxFan562004]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/taverwi01.shtml

 

he's played at least 97 games and has had at least 372 ABs in each of the last four years. Every year he has been a below average offensive player, PEAKING with a OPS + of 89. He is a bad offensive player and the White Sox don't have a magical spell that will make him a quality MLB offensive player.