Sox still interested in Willy Taveras

[maggsmaggs]

Means nothing. Timo Perez has a career .350/.458/.550 in 20 AB in Miller Park. Should the Brewers go after him?

I hope you saw the subtle sarcasm.

Edited November 29, 2008 by maggsmaggs

[NorthSideSox72]

Taveras could not hit last year due to his leg injury.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Though he stole twice as many bases as his previous career (34) at a much better ratio. Hm...

Where you been?

 

Post more.

 

[Felix]

Taveras could not hit last year due to his leg injury.

 

Though he stole twice as many bases as his previous career (34) at a much better ratio. Hm...

You just don't understand. He's got intangibles that your silly metrics and logic can't understand. Both teams he's ever been on have also been to the World Series, and he's got healing powers similar to Jesus. What's not to love?!

Edited November 29, 2008 by Felix

[sircaffey]

Do you just choose to ignore anything besides last season?

 

The year before (In Colorado by the way) he hit .320 with a .367 OBP and a .382 slugging percentage

 

Can we please drop the he had a bad season last year so he must be garbage crap?

 

In 97 games. His 3 full seasons are much worse. The .047 difference between his AVE and OBP is scary to me. Podsednik at least was able to take a walk and have the difference between his AVE and OBP .060-.070. I'm fine with Wily coming here to bat 9th, but if he's here, he's leading off. I don't trust Willy's bat enough to reach a .330 OBP. I'd expect an OBP near .320.

 

 

[T R U]

You just don't understand. He's got intangibles that your silly metrics and logic can't understand. Both teams he's ever been on have also been to the World Series, and he's got healing powers similar to Jesus. What's not to love?!

 

It really doesn't matter what you think about Wily T.. if we get him, and he hits .280+ and steals 60+ bases hes gonna help this team regardless of your OPS love affair

[Felix]

No, I think you're missing the real point. It's about the fans.

 

 

 

This clearly is the problem. SERESLY.

I simply don't understand why everyone is so fascinated with the bunt. It's a bad play designed to give outs to the opposing team. Isn't the point of offense to not get out? It's even worse and more idiotic when you're doing it in front of a 3/4/5/6 that hits nearly 130 home runs per year. With the power that this team has, and will continue to have since the majority of the middle of the order will be back, it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest the team should get a leadoff man that doesn't get on-base and bunts as much as Taveras (or someone similar) does.

[Whitewashed in '05]

Kenny is looking at other options besides Tavarez. If Kenny wanted Tavarez he'd already be here which leads me to believe he is looking at other options. If he can't land his target he will focus on Tavarez and acquire him if it doesn't cost too much. If he's too expensive Owens will be starting.

[Felix]

It really doesn't matter what you think about Wily T.. if we get him, and he hits .280+ and steals 60+ bases hes gonna help this team regardless of your OPS love affair

He stole 60+ bases once in his career, and it was in the year where he was as bad offensively as humanly possible in Coors Field. He's also only hit above .280 in a full season once. Neither of these things are sure things as you seem to think, and no, even if he hits .280/.330/.330 as the leadoff man he isn't helping the team. He's hurting it by having the most at-bats on the team despite being a below average offensive player.

[maggsmaggs]

It isn't even worth arguing about. People are under the impression acquiring Taveras will change the makeup of the offense, which couldn't be farther from the truth. In reality, your going to get a player that doesn't get on base enough to bat at the top of the lineup, has no power into the gaps, and is basically a gimmick hitter.

 

I'm not sure if people just haven't watched this team the last 3 years, but it's an awful situational hitting team. They are built for the long ball, and adding Taveras isn't going to change that, at all. There are posters that seemingly can't wait to watch Taveras hustle out an infield single, and steal second. Then what? How often do the Sox string hits together? Really?

It's not how this offense is designed to operate, and Taveras isn't going to change that.

 

Well, the point of Taveras being speedy is that he gets on base with, then can steal second and/or third. So he really only needs one hit to score, which really isn't stringing hits together. Our second hitter and Quentin would be able to hopefully get one hit to knock him in. The point of speed is you only need one hit after the speed player to score, sometimes none because their speed causes wild pitches, errors on pickoffs and such.

[Balta1701]

Well, the point of Taveras being speedy is that he gets on base with, then can steal second and/or third. So he really only needs one hit to score, which really isn't stringing hits together. Our second hitter and Quentin would be able to hopefully get one hit to knock him in. The point of speed is you only need one hit after the speed player to score, sometimes none because their speed causes wild pitches, errors on pickoffs and such.

The problem with that concept is that it assumes one thing...that the guy is able to get on base at a high pace in the first place.

 

Typically, when I look at the stats from a leadoff type hitter, I think that a .350 OBP is somewhere between average and below average. It's adequate, if the guy makes up for the fact that he doesn't get on base a lot by moving in to scoring position. Every point above that is better, every point below that is costing you a lot of runs. The midpoint for #1 hitters last year in baseball was a .350 OBP, between both leagues. The Sox averaged .339, and there wasn't ever really a leadoff hitter for this team we were totally happy with, because between Swisher and Cabrera, both of them struggled to get on base too much for us.

 

Willy Taveras has a career .331 OBP. His OBP is also dominated by his batting average, because he doesn't walk much and doesn't work a pitcher much (Another plus for a leadoff hitter that we're not noting much). The only time in his career he had an OBP over .350 was when he hit .320 in a 1/2 season 2 years ago. Otherwise, he's been at .333, .325, and .308 last year.

 

I don't care how fast you are. If you're getting on base at a .325 clip, even if you're stealing 75 bases and being thrown out one time, you're costing your team runs compared to a person who gets on base at a 50% clip. Over a 600 ab season, the difference in OBP there is basically the same as being thrown out 15 more times.

[T R U]

There are posters that seemingly can't wait to watch Taveras hustle out an infield single, and steal second. Then what? How often do the Sox string hits together? Really?

 

It's not how this offense is designed to operate, and Taveras isn't going to change that.

 

Gimme a f***ing break

 

The only way this team scores now is either hit a HR or string together hits..

 

Taveras DOES change that.. no matter how many posts you make taking shots at people who like Taveras and think he would be good for our team..

 

Its not even Taveras, its the speed.. It could be any player, but Taveras looks like the most likely scenario to acquire..

[T R U]

The problem with that concept is that it assumes one thing...that the guy is able to get on base at a high pace in the first place.

 

Typically, when I look at the stats from a leadoff type hitter, I think that a .350 OBP is somewhere between average and below average. It's adequate, if the guy makes up for the fact that he doesn't get on base a lot by moving in to scoring position. Every point above that is better, every point below that is costing you a lot of runs. The midpoint for #1 hitters last year in baseball was a .350 OBP, between both leagues. The Sox averaged .339, and there wasn't ever really a leadoff hitter for this team we were totally happy with, because between Swisher and Cabrera, both of them struggled to get on base too much for us.

 

Willy Taveras has a career .331 OBP. His OBP is also dominated by his batting average, because he doesn't walk much and doesn't work a pitcher much (Another plus for a leadoff hitter that we're not noting much). The only time in his career he had an OBP over .350 was when he hit .320 in a 1/2 season 2 years ago. Otherwise, he's been at .333, .325, and .308 last year.

 

I don't care how fast you are. If you're getting on base at a .325 clip, even if you're stealing 75 bases and being thrown out one time, you're costing your team runs compared to a person who gets on base at a 50% clip. Over a 600 ab season, the difference in OBP there is basically the same as being thrown out 15 more times.

 

He doesn't even have to be the leadoff hitter, I wouldn't care if he was batting 9th.. but we cant continue to play station to station baseball with people who cant score from second on singles sometimes..

 

[Felix]

Gimme a f***ing break

 

The only way this team scores now is either hit a HR or string together hits..

 

Taveras DOES change that.. no matter how many posts you make taking shots at people who like Taveras and think he would be good for our team..

 

Its not even Taveras, its the speed.. It could be any player, but Taveras looks like the most likely scenario to acquire..

Taveras doesn't make Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, Carlos Quentin, or Paul Konerko any less likely to hit home runs.

[caulfield12]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/battin...ull&minpa=0

 

According to the theories of some people here on the board, using OBP as the holy grail and only measure, we should get either Gregor Blanco or Mike Cameron.

 

Cody Ross, McLouth and Matt Kemp are going to be prohibitively expensive to acquire. Go to that page and tell me what players the White Sox realistically have a shot at??? Taveras was at least better than Carlos Gomez at getting on base and wouldn't cost us very much at all. Maybe he's Option C or D, but he has to be on the radar screen. As much as we're complaining about him, I can't imagine the complaints after KW trades away the farm system again for Brian Roberts. Otherwise, we are going to have to target someone like Dickerson without much of an established track record...who may or may not be better than Jerry Owens as a leadoff hitter and CFer.

Edited November 29, 2008 by caulfield12

[T R U]

Taveras doesn't make Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, Carlos Quentin, or Paul Konerko any less likely to hit home runs.

 

Not at all

 

However, instead of a single making it 1st and 2nd.. it could make it 1st and 3rd

 

Instead of a double making it 2nd and 3rd, it could give us that extra run

 

 

[Balta1701]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/battin...ull&minpa=0

 

According to the theories of some people here on the board, using OBP as the holy grail and only measure, we should get either Gregor Blanco or Mike Cameron.

 

Cody Ross, McLouth and Matt Kemp are going to be prohibitively expensive to acquire. Go to that page and tell me what players the White Sox realistically have a shot at??? Taveras was at least better than Carlos Gomez at getting on base and wouldn't cost us very much at all. Maybe he's Option C or D, but he has to be on the radar screen. As much as we're complaining about him, I can't imagine the complaints after KW trades away the farm system again for Brian Roberts. Otherwise, we are going to have to target someone like Dickerson without much of an established track record...who may or may not be better than Jerry Owens as a leadoff hitter and CFer.

Mike Cameron and his .331 OBP? You're saying that somehow I'm supposed to find that to be good? Well, maybe compared to what Taveras did last year, but still...

[caulfield12]

Of course, going back to Pods' 2005, we don't really have an obvious Iguchi-type hitter on the team either...definitely not AJ.

 

Ramirez is a candidate...but do you want someone with his potential ability thinking about sacrificing and giving up so many at-bats? Do you want to consciously change the more aggressive nature of his approach by putting him in the 2 spot?

 

It's almost funny to even consider it, but this line-up would be best (with Taveras as the leadoff hitter) with Orlando Cabrera batting second. And Brian Anderson is definitely NEVER going to be either a 1 or 2 hitter in the big leagues on his best day.

[caulfield12]

Mike Cameron and his .331 OBP? You're saying that somehow I'm supposed to find that to be good? Well, maybe compared to what Taveras did last year, but still...

 

 

Exactly, the point is HOW DIFFICULT it is to find someone...the magic, pristine bullet theory.

 

He's not out there...so we will have to accept some imperfections in our leadoff hitter.

 

Of all those players, either they are currently unavailable (aka "dream/roto/playstation") acquisitions or they're flawed. Mike Cameron, at his age, and coming from the NL to the AL, would I want that? Well, I would probably choose that over an Anderson/Owens platoon, but not by much more than a whisker. He has a little bit left in his tank, but to stand the wear and tear of batting leadoff in the AL again and playing CF every day? Doubt it. I don't think KW is giving Cameron much if any consideration either.

 

Now, OTOH, Blanco is an interesting target and his name logically pops up in a possible Jenks/Vazquez/Dye deal to the Braves.

 

The only other obvious possibility is another thread figuring out what can be done to make Michael Bourn Supremacy a .340-.350 OBP type of player.

Edited November 29, 2008 by caulfield12

[qwerty]

I simply don't understand why everyone is so fascinated with the bunt. It's a bad play designed to give outs to the opposing team. Isn't the point of offense to not get out? It's even worse and more idiotic when you're doing it in front of a 3/4/5/6 that hits nearly 130 home runs per year. With the power that this team has, and will continue to have since the majority of the middle of the order will be back, it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest the team should get a leadoff man that doesn't get on-base and bunts as much as Taveras (or someone similar) does.

 

What you did not fall in love with ''ozzie ball''? Ozzie ball actually never existed, it was a figment of the imagination that the white sox brass thought would be a cute marketing ploy.

 

 

It isn't even worth arguing about. People are under the impression acquiring Taveras will change the makeup of the offense, which couldn't be farther from the truth. In reality, your going to get a player that doesn't get on base enough to bat at the top of the lineup, has no power into the gaps, and is basically a gimmick hitter.

 

I'm not sure if people just haven't watched this team the last 3 years, but it's an awful situational hitting team. They are built for the long ball, and adding Taveras isn't going to change that, at all. There are posters that seemingly can't wait to watch Taveras hustle out an infield single, and steal second. Then what? How often do the Sox string hits together? Really?

 

It's not how this offense is designed to operate, and Taveras isn't going to change that.

 

The sox were one of the top 3-5 teams all season when it came to risp. They were in the .285 range roughly the first five months, ended up 8th with a .277 average and 5th .813 ops with risp. They were actually very consistent and getting them in throughout the year. The problem is they had the third fewest chances in the entire mlb with only 1300 at-bats. The top 6 teams (two tied for fifth) all had 1491 at-bats or more with runners in scoring position. Therein lies problem, getting them into scoring position in the first place.

 

In 2007 the sox were abysmal with risp. The sox were dead last in average, ops, and of course at-bats.

 

2006 they were the best in the majors with a .307 average, .11 points higher than the twins and .17 points higher than the indians. Their .880 ops with risp that season was the best of this decade. Once more they had 200 less at-bats than the league leader.

 

The sox have been no worse than fifth in the league or better when it comes to ops with risp outside of 2005 and 2007. The 2007 was an aberration which I personally throw out the window.

 

If we could ever manage to get obp heavy in the 1-2 holes in the line-up...

Edited November 29, 2008 by qwerty

[caulfield12]

If Ramirez doesn't backslide and become the next Mike Caruso, lol.

 

Actually this whole theory about high OBP would have been interesting to test, had Swisher actually turned out to be capable of doing that...it's not only finding high OPB players, but high OBP players that are comfortable and effective in the 1 and 2 spots in the batting order. AJ batting second out of necessity is an example.

 

Right now, the best possibilities that are both highly unlikely are Taveras/Cabrera (neither one of them would be guaranteed of being over .330 OBP in my opinion) and Taveras/Ramirez (once again, how is Ramirez going to be able to get to a .330 OBP without walking?)

[sircaffey]

Not at all

 

However, instead of a single making it 1st and 2nd.. it could make it 1st and 3rd

 

Instead of a double making it 2nd and 3rd, it could give us that extra run

 

Orlando isn't exactly slow. Trading him out for a worse hitter who doesn't walk that is a step faster isn't going to fix the problem. I just see no way Taveras fixes the problem atop of the order. He may end up being the best option, but he's not the solution (nor an improvement, imo).

Edited November 29, 2008 by sircaffey

[caulfield12]

Taveras DOES change that, if you have Tadahito Iguchi from 2005/06 batting second.

 

Jumping out in front in the beginning of games and having a bullpen that could consistently hold 1-2 run leads from the get-go did wonders for that team's confidence and ultimately is the reserve they drew upon to push through in September and October. They believed if they had any lead they would win that game.

 

That's why manufacturing runs (especially without the benefit of a hit) in the early innings was so important...to put pressure on the other team. I agree bunting is not always the panacea, and should not be overdone, but nothing puts fear in another team (and its pitcher) more than a leadoff hitter that you know is going to bunt but you still might not be able to throw him out...and once he gets on, it's an automatic double or triple and the pitcher's distracted already and throwing out of the stretch to the meat of the order. Which also will lead to more fastballs, which those hitters thrive on.

[caulfield12]

Orlando isn't exactly slow. Trading him out for a worse hitter who doesn't walk that is a step faster isn't going to fix the problem. I just see no way Taveras fixes the problem atop of the order. He may end up being the best option, but he's not the solution (nor an improvement, imo).

 

 

Three steps faster...there's a big difference psychologically. Opposing teams would never be afraid of Cabrera coming up to bat. They might be of Pods, Carlos Gomez/Denard Span, Taveras, etc.

[sircaffey]

Three steps faster...there's a big difference psychologically. Opposing teams would never be afraid of Cabrera coming up to bat. They might be of Pods, Carlos Gomez/Denard Span, Taveras, etc.

 

Opposing teams are afraid of Wily T at the plate? At the plate, Wily T is one of the worst in the league. They may be afraid of Wily T on the basepaths, but he doesn't get there much.

Edited November 29, 2008 by sircaffey

[T R U]

Opposing teams are afraid of Wily T at the plate? At the plate, Wily T is one of the worst in the league. They may be afraid of Wily T on the basepaths, but he doesn't get there much.

 

Thats just flat out wrong

 

Wily T is FAR from being on of the worst in the league at the plate