Sox still interested in Willy Taveras

[qwerty]

Scoring runs isn't the problem. I understand that. Trust me.

 

I have been preaching the last two years the core of the offensive is one of the best in baseball, but maximizing your investment is key. The Sox are simply not getting enough bang for their buck, given the historically low OBP in the top two spots in the lineup.

 

Also, OPS with RISP doesn't really "disprove" my point. It should be expected that the Sox have a high OPS in that situation. They hit a s*** ton of HR's. The problem lies with a runner on third with 1 out, or 2nd and 3rd with two outs, ect. They are not a good situational hitting team, and the whole point of this was Willy Taveras isn't going to change that.

 

The sox have arguably been the best team in baseball average wise with risp since 2000.

 

2000- .301 which was 3rd in baseball

 

2001- .281 which was 6th in baseball

 

2002- .290 average which was a tie for 1st in all of baseball.

 

2003- .281 which was 6th in baseball.

 

2004- .291 which was second in baseball

 

2005- .259 which was 22nd in baseball.

 

2006- .307 which was 1st in baseball

 

2007- .243 which was dead last in baseball.

 

2008- .277 which was 8th in baseball

 

The sox situational numbers, a runner on third with one out, or risp with 2 outs look no better or worse than the average major league team in the past nine years. Hell their numbers look no better or worse in the past five seasons. Hitting with risp and 2 outs in one of the tougher things to do in the game. When a team fails to score with a runner on third and only one out though it is rather disappointing/frustrating.

 

Point is the sox are not nearly as bad with risp in any aspect compared to the average team, and if anything they are better than almost every team out there. The problem is getting the runners into scoring position in the first place, as you said, stringing some hits together.

[CanOfCorn]

And what Willy T brings us that nobody else on the team can do is bunt for hits...CONSISTENTLY. As long as he has an idea of what to do...bunt for hits and slap hitter every other time, he's going to be MORE dangerous. If he could get on at a .340 OBP clip, this team competes for the division and will scare teams in the playoffs. That's not just Willy T, that's any player like him.

[eickevinmorris]

Thats just flat out wrong

 

Wily T is FAR from being on of the worst in the league at the plate

Please, go on.

 

[sircaffey]

Thats just flat out wrong

 

Wily T is FAR from being on of the worst in the league at the plate

 

Ok let me rephrase. Willy Taveras is one of the least dangerous hitters in the league. No one fears him at the plate. He's a hitter that you intentionally walk someone to face.

Edited November 29, 2008 by sircaffey

[bighurt4life]

Has everyone forgotten how effective Pods was at disrupting opposing pitchers when he was on base? They spent more time checking him at first base than they did worrying about who was in the batter's box, and considering how dangerous this team will be 3-6 next year if we had a player who was dangerous on the basepaths that would be great for us.

 

I don't give a damn that Taveras doesn't hit for high OPS or slugging, that's not what he does or needs to do. A single for him is just about the same as a double from almost anyone else on the current team because he's such a good base stealer except for one important fact, he can an will score from second on just about any single to the outfield.

 

Finally- for all those who say he's crap. PLEASE TELL ME,,, WHO ELSE WILL WE BAT LEADOFF AND PLAY CF???? Please give me a name of someone else who we can get on the cheap and has at least a relatively proven track record.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I simply don't understand why everyone is so fascinated with the bunt. It's a bad play designed to give outs to the opposing team. Isn't the point of offense to not get out? It's even worse and more idiotic when you're doing it in front of a 3/4/5/6 that hits nearly 130 home runs per year. With the power that this team has, and will continue to have since the majority of the middle of the order will be back, it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest the team should get a leadoff man that doesn't get on-base and bunts as much as Taveras (or someone similar) does.

Some of the responses in these threads are so beyond idiotic, and this is clearly another one.

 

Bunting is a bad play? The worst Taveras has ever hit after dropping a bunt in his career is .491. He hit over .700 one year while dropping bunts. His sacrifice bunt totals are way down compared to his bunt hit totals, so that means he's very, very good at getting on first base when he decides to run. Bunt you don't like that? Why? What is the difference between getting on via a walk and getting on via a bunt? Here's the difference: bunts are something the hitter can control, a good bunter is much more likely to get a bunt down and reach first base, whereas to draw a walk you have to count on a pitcher throwing 4 balls out of the strike zone. A good bunter only needs one pitch in the strike zone to get on. Did bunts kill your dog or something? Why don't you like them?

 

Somehow people seem to think that a .330-.340 OBP guy, who gets on 182-187 times in a 550 PA season, distracts the pitcher and can easily put himself in scoring position via the SB, is SOOOO much worse than a .350-.360 OBP guy who gets on 193-198 times over a 550 PA season and just stands there doing nothing to put himself in scoring position. In order to understand the value of a stolen base, you have to actually watch the damn games. I don't know how anyone could've actually watched us in 2005 and come away thinking stolen bases and bunts are practically worthless, but I guess it happened. Teams need to be able to manufacture runs because you can't always take walks and hit home runs.

[bighurt4life]

BTW- the OBP of some other prominent leadoff hitters this past season

 

Ellsbury- .336

Pierre- .327

Carlos Gomez- .296

Crawford .319

Gaithright .311

O Cabrera- .334

Chris Young .315

Adam Jones .311

 

 

Now I obviously was picking and choosing with that list but there's some big names on that list that haven't done much more than WT.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Has everyone forgotten how effective Pods was at disrupting opposing pitchers when he was on base? They spent more time checking him at first base than they did worrying about who was in the batter's box, and considering how dangerous this team will be 3-6 next year if we had a player who was dangerous on the basepaths that would be great for us.

 

I don't give a damn that Taveras doesn't hit for high OPS or slugging, that's not what he does or needs to do. A single for him is just about the same as a double from almost anyone else on the current team because he's such a good base stealer except for one important fact, he can an will score from second on just about any single to the outfield.

 

Finally- for all those who say he's crap. PLEASE TELL ME,,, WHO ELSE WILL WE BAT LEADOFF AND PLAY CF???? Please give me a name of someone else who we can get on the cheap and has at least a relatively proven track record.

Taveras is worthless. We shouldn't trade a bag of balls for him, no, we should trade Fields, Getz, and Poreda for Roberts instead. That way we can spend a bunch of money on a 3B and deplete the farm in the process. Great idea.

 

You're basically comparing Anderson's value to us to Taveras' value to us, and Taveras has accomplished much more in his career than Anderson may ever will, and he also fits a need. Who else should we get? I dunno, but someone with great OPS. Speed is only okay unless a player has to rely on it, because if a player has rely on his speed that that player is garbage. Speed is not a real baseball tool, it's nothing but smoke and mirrors, and it does not affect a baseball game in any way. Only OPS do.

[eickevinmorris]

BTW- the OBP of some other prominent leadoff hitters this past season

 

Ellsbury- .336

Pierre- .327

Carlos Gomez- .296

Crawford .319

Gaithright .311

O Cabrera- .334

Chris Young .315

Adam Jones .311

 

 

Now I obviously was picking and choosing with that list but there's some big names on that list that haven't done much more than WT.

Nobody thinks those guys are prominent hitters at this point in their careers (sans Crawford). I have no idea what stretch of a point you are trying to concoct.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

BTW- the OBP of some other prominent leadoff hitters this past season

 

Ellsbury- .336

Pierre- .327

Carlos Gomez- .296

Crawford .319

Gaithright .311

O Cabrera- .334

Chris Young .315

Adam Jones .311

 

 

Now I obviously was picking and choosing with that list but there's some big names on that list that haven't done much more than WT.

The haters will counter that some of those guys either hit of power or have power potential. The haters seem to think that SLG% and OBP are more or less equal, which is why they parrot that OPS stat for everything, and as long as a player either slugs or gets on base at a high rate he's an acceptable lead-off man. Completely ignore speed and the way it affects a ballgame because real baseball games that count in the standings are not played on the field, they're actually simulated in Baseball Prospectus' offices.

[eickevinmorris]

Taveras is worthless. We shouldn't trade a bag of balls for him, no, we should trade Fields, Getz, and Poreda for Roberts instead. That way we can spend a bunch of money on a 3B and deplete the farm in the process. Great idea.

 

You're basically comparing Anderson's value to us to Taveras' value to us, and Taveras has accomplished much more in his career than Anderson may ever will, and he also fits a need. Who else should we get? I dunno, but someone with great OPS. Speed is only okay unless a player has to rely on it, because if a player has rely on his speed that that player is garbage. Speed is not a real baseball tool, it's nothing but smoke and mirrors, and it does not affect a baseball game in any way. Only OPS do.

Way to play the strawman. Speed is an asset if you do something else remotely well. Taveras hits a bunch of singles -- fantastic, that's great. He doesn't take walks, he doesn't hit for power, he doesn't get on base a great amount of the time. You can't steal first base.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Nobody thinks those guys are prominent hitters at this point in their careers (sans Crawford). I have no idea what stretch of a point you are trying to concoct.

They're not the greatest players on their teams or the greatest lead-off hitters, but they did lead off a lot for their teams.

[knightni]

I think that the Sox can sacrifice some slugging in the lineup.

 

Tavares is speedier than any other player on the 40 man sans Owens, plus he plays better defensively than Owens.

 

If he doesn't cost a lot, I say go for it.

 

 

[eickevinmorris]

The haters will counter that some of those guys either hit of power or have power potential. The haters seem to think that SLG% and OBP are more or less equal, which is why they parrot that OPS stat for everything, and as long as a player either slugs or gets on base at a high rate he's an acceptable lead-off man. Completely ignore speed and the way it affects a ballgame because real baseball games that count in the standings are not played on the field, they're actually simulated in Baseball Prospectus' offices.

Seriously, why do you have to be such a douche about the fact that everyone thinks (read: knows) Taveras is a below average ballplayer? And no, nobody believes SLG and OBP are equal; if they do, they shouldn't be commenting, as anyone with half a brain knows OBP trumps SLG by quite a bit. Problem is, your boy Taveras offers neither OBP nor SLG skills.

 

Also, the "hater" in me will note that the guys posted above are actually good at other facets of the game or are extremely young.

[eickevinmorris]

They're not the greatest players on their teams or the greatest lead-off hitters, but they did lead off a lot for their teams.

So what's the point? Because other teams do something completely stupid, we should do it too? Also, those players, despite their low OBPs, offer something valuable -- something you can't say about Taveras (relative to the White Sox, as we've already got a no-hit, great defense CF in Anderson).

[knightni]

Seriously, why do you have to be such a douche about the fact that everyone thinks (read: knows) Taveras is a below average ballplayer? And no, nobody believes SLG and OBP are equal; if they do, they shouldn't be commenting, as anyone with half a brain knows OBP trumps SLG by quite a bit. Problem is, your boy Taveras offers neither OBP nor SLG skills.

 

Also, the "hater" in me will note that the guys posted above are actually good at other facets of the game or are extremely young.

Tavares offers speed and defense, plus an arm.

 

He hits for decent average and can steal 30+ bases.

 

SLG is not important, but OBP is.

 

If he can get .315 OBP, he can bat 9th for all I care. If it means that he can take the extra base on a base hit, I'm all for it.

 

 

[eickevinmorris]

Tavares offers speed and defense, plus an arm.

 

He hits for decent average and can steal 30+ bases.

 

SLG is not important, but OBP is.

 

If he can get .315 OBP, he can bat 9th for all I care. If it means that he can take the extra base on a base hit, I'm all for it.

Then just put Jerry Owens out there if that's your requirement.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Way to play the strawman. Speed is an asset if you do something else remotely well. Taveras hits a bunch of singles -- fantastic, that's great. He doesn't take walks, he doesn't hit for power, he doesn't get on base a great amount of the time. You can't steal first base.

This first comment is moronic. Speed is an asset if....? Speed is an asset in itself. Every single tool is an asset in itself. You don't need high average or high walk totals or big power in order to run fast. That is ridiculous. As long as you can play defense and help your team in the field, then the speed you offer on the offensive side of the baseball is an asset in itself. Besides, power is dependent on contact. OBP is dependent upon contact. Contact is the most important plate skill despite what you may think, and Willy makes contact. That actually increases his usefulness as a speed player, even though his speed is not entirely dependent upon contact because he can put down a bunt.

 

Look at our roster. AJ plays a premium position and his asset is contact. That's all he does really well besides defense. Fields' asset is power, and right now that is all he does well. Thome has two assets offensively - eye and power - and can't play the field. Uribe, who we started for years, has zero assets aside from defense because his power actually depends on his contact rate which was abysmal. The point is no one tool trumps the other. It is about fit and that's it. Willy plays defense and offers more than anyone we have and anyone we had last year, because he can actually play CF.

 

 

[knightni]

Then just put Jerry Owens out there if that's your requirement.

Not the same.

 

Owens has no arm, plays mediocre defense and can't hit for average.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Says the guy who actually created a thread saying Taveras needs loud fans in order to be a successful player.

 

Unreal.

So you think there's no mental aspect of baseball then or what? The thread I made showed that statistically he has become absolutely horrible deep in the count, specifically on 3-2 when he should feel like he has control of the situation. His poor numbers there indicate something mental. Being in a winning environment where tons of fans cheer his strengths is probably going to be better for him that 25 people in the crowd or whatever in Colorado who don't about anything he does because the team is garbage. He needs to take his mind off the numbers he's playing for in Colorado and just react naturally like he did when he came up as a rookie. If he does that, the numbers say he'll be a very good player, because every other part of his game has actually improved.

[eickevinmorris]

This first comment is moronic. Speed is an asset if....? Speed is an asset in itself. Every single tool is an asset in itself. You don't need high average or high walk totals or big power in order to run fast. That is ridiculous. As long as you can play defense and help your team in the field, then the speed you offer on the offensive side of the baseball is an asset in itself. Besides, power is dependent on contact. OBP is dependent upon contact. Contact is the most important plate skill despite what you may think, and Willy makes contact. That actually increases his usefulness as a speed player, even though his speed is not entirely dependent upon contact because he can put down a bunt.

 

Look at our roster. AJ plays a premium position and his asset is contact. That's all he does really well besides defense. Fields' asset is power, and right now that is all he does well. Thome has two assets offensively - eye and power - and can't play the field. Uribe, who we started for years, has zero assets aside from defense because his power actually depends on his contact rate which was abysmal. The point is no one tool trumps the other. It is about fit and that's it. Willy plays defense and offers more than anyone we have and anyone we had last year, because he can actually play CF.

Your statement that AJ plays defense "well" ruins any shred of credibility you still had.

 

1. Not all tools are equal, that statement is f***ing amazingly ignorant.

2. Not really sure what you're getting at with this contact argument. Sure, Willy makes good contact, but he doesn't walk or make good contact, as evidenced by his horrendous XBH totals.

 

[eickevinmorris]

So you think there's no mental aspect of baseball then or what? The thread I made showed that statistically he has become absolutely horrible deep in the count, specifically on 3-2 when he should feel like he has control of the situation. His poor numbers there indicate something mental. Being in a winning environment where tons of fans cheer his strengths is probably going to be better for him that 25 people in the crowd or whatever in Colorado who don't about anything he does because the team is garbage. He needs to take his mind off the numbers he's playing for in Colorado and just react naturally like he did when he came up as a rookie. If he does that, the numbers say he'll be a very good player, because every other part of his game has actually improved.

This is your idea of a "statistical analysis"?

[eickevinmorris]

Not the same.

 

Owens has no arm, plays mediocre defense and can't hit for average.

Owens will probably post a .315 OBP.

 

[sircaffey]

So you think there's no mental aspect of baseball then or what? The thread I made showed that statistically he has become absolutely horrible deep in the count, specifically on 3-2 when he should feel like he has control of the situation. His poor numbers there indicate something mental. Being in a winning environment where tons of fans cheer his strengths is probably going to be better for him that 25 people in the crowd or whatever in Colorado who don't about anything he does because the team is garbage. He needs to take his mind off the numbers he's playing for in Colorado and just react naturally like he did when he came up as a rookie. If he does that, the numbers say he'll be a very good player, because every other part of his game has actually improved.

 

What are you talking about?

 

COL averaged 33,127 fans in 2008. CHW averaged 30,877 fans in 2008. And when Willy played in HOU in 2005 and 2006 the average attendance was 34,000+ and 37,000+ respectively. I guess we really don't want Willy now because he'd be playing in front of even fewer people.

[eickevinmorris]

What are you talking about?

 

COL averaged 33,127 fans in 2008. CHW averaged 30,877 fans in 2008. And when Willy played in HOU in 2005 and 2006 the average attendance was 34,000+ and 37,000+ respectively. I guess we really don't want Willy now because he'd be playing in front of even fewer people.

I'm enjoying this.