Sox still interested in Willy Taveras

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Seriously, why do you have to be such a douche about the fact that everyone thinks (read: knows) Taveras is a below average ballplayer? And no, nobody believes SLG and OBP are equal; if they do, they shouldn't be commenting, as anyone with half a brain knows OBP trumps SLG by quite a bit. Problem is, your boy Taveras offers neither OBP nor SLG skills.

 

Also, the "hater" in me will note that the guys posted above are actually good at other facets of the game or are extremely young.

Why do you have to be such a turd sandwich then?

 

That is your opinion that OBP trumps SLG%. I'd say it does in certain positions in the order, like say Mike Jacobs can fit his power and very low OBP in the #6 slot of a team much better than a guy who gets on and doesn't have power could. For lead-off OBP does trump SLG which makes it stupid that I keep seeing comments about SLG% and OPS regarding a lead-off spot. You do not need to hit home runs if you lead off, and you don't need a whole lot of triples or doubles if you can steal efficiently.

 

I don't know how you can say Willy offers no OBP skills. He makes contact, he does walk some, and his speed allows him to hit for a higher average than most players because he can put down bunts and beat them out. His average strongly affects his OBP and if he hits .320, which he did in '07 and can do again, he'll get on at a .360-.370 clip. It is a lot easier for a player like him to hit .310-.320 because he can put bunts down when the IF are playing back, or hit the ball past him when they come in and give up range.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[caulfield12]

I think if we substituted Pods' numbers over his career before he came to the White Sox, nobody would have been very excited to acquire him. In fact, most were griping/complaining about losing El Caballo and replacing him with a zero power hitter.

 

SPEED NEVER SLUMPS. DEFENSE NEVER SLUMPS. HAVING A GOOD ARM DOESN'T DISAPPEAR EITHER, ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS. (Of these three, Owens gives you ONLY one thing, because his CF defense is so-so or adequate, partially because of his arm but other deficiencies exist as well...TAVERAS GIVES YOU ALL THREE ON A CONSISTENT BASIS).

 

Point 2, Jerry Owens isn't a reasonable facsimile of Wily Taveras. And it's not that close. Just ask KW or anyone with the White Sox FO.

 

Sure, we can pick apart Taveras' 2007 season, but if we went by one season, Jon Danks would have been horrible in 2008 based on his 2007 numbers and Gavin Floyd never would have been acquired based on his past MLB stats. Alexei Ramirez would have been playing in Winston-Salem or Birmingham, based on "conventional" wisdom.

Edited November 30, 2008 by caulfield12

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

What are you talking about?

 

COL averaged 33,127 fans in 2008. CHW averaged 30,877 fans in 2008. And when Willy played in HOU in 2005 and 2006 the average attendance was 34,000+ and 37,000+ respectively. I guess we really don't want Willy now because he'd be playing in front of even fewer people.

Ok so fine. But the Colorado fans didn't care. They threw s*** at him and called him names and when he stole bases they tried to charge the field.

 

Something in Colorado f***ed his head up.

[eickevinmorris]

Why do you have to be such a turd sandwich then?

 

That is your opinion that OBP trumps SLG%. I'd say it does in certain positions in the order, like say Mike Jacobs can fit his power and very low OBP in the #6 slot of a team much better than a guy who gets on and doesn't have power could. For lead-off OBP does trump SLG which makes it stupid that I keep seeing comments about SLG% and OPS regarding a lead-off spot. You do not need to hit home runs if you lead off, and you don't need a whole lot of triples or doubles if you can steal efficiently.

 

I don't know how you can say Willy offers no OBP skills. He makes contact, he does walk some, and his speed allows him to hit for a higher average than most players because he can put down bunts and beat them out. His average strongly affects his OBP and if he hits .320, which he did in '07 and can do again, he'll get on at a .360-.370 clip. It is a lot easier for a player like him to hit .310-.320 because he can put bunts down when the IF are playing back, or hit the ball past him when they come in and give up range.

He's only done this once, in a 97 game season. The likelihood of him eclipsing .300/.340 in a full season is minimal at best.

 

OBP absolutely trumps SLG%, that's irrefutable. Leadoff isn't a position, it's simply a spot in the order, one that doesn't matter much as a player leads off once (!) a game. The important thing is finding a high OBP player to put there, not a fast guy with a terrible OBP.

[caulfield12]

Why do you have to be such a turd sandwich then?

 

That is your opinion that OBP trumps SLG%. I'd say it does in certain positions in the order, like say Mike Jacobs can fit his power and very low OBP in the #6 slot of a team much better than a guy who gets on and doesn't have power could. For lead-off OBP does trump SLG which makes it stupid that I keep seeing comments about SLG% and OPS regarding a lead-off spot. You do not need to hit home runs if you lead off, and you don't need a whole lot of triples or doubles if you can steal efficiently.

 

I don't know how you can say Willy offers no OBP skills. He makes contact, he does walk some, and his speed allows him to hit for a higher average than most players because he can put down bunts and beat them out. His average strongly affects his OBP and if he hits .320, which he did in '07 and can do again, he'll get on at a .360-.370 clip. It is a lot easier for a player like him to hit .310-.320 because he can put bunts down when the IF are playing back, or hit the ball past him when they come in and give up range.

 

 

You mean our CF doesn't have to be a combination of Rickey Henderson (1980), Alphonso Soriano and Grady Sizemore, with a Brady Anderson steroids year thrown in for good measure???

 

C'mon. Obviously, there are many CFers out there with Roberto Clemente's arm, Mickey Mantle's speed, Joe Borchard's raw power, Devon White's defensive prowess and a combination of Brett/Boggs/Ichiro/Gwynn at the plate. With Ripken's history of resisting injuries and playing through pain. And he must have Kirby Puckett's infectious personality thrown in for good measure.

Edited November 30, 2008 by caulfield12

[eickevinmorris]

I think if we substituted Pods' numbers over his career before he came to the White Sox, nobody would have been very excited to acquire him. In fact, most were griping/complaining about losing El Caballo and replacing him with a zero power hitter.

 

SPEED NEVER SLUMPS. DEFENSE NEVER SLUMPS. HAVING A GOOD ARM DOESN'T DISAPPEAR EITHER, ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS. (Of these three, Owens gives you ONLY one thing, because his CF defense is so-so or adequate, partially because of his arm but other deficiencies exist as well...TAVERAS GIVES YOU ALL THREE ON A CONSISTENT BASIS).

 

Point 2, Jerry Owens isn't a reasonable facsimile of Wily Taveras. And it's not that close. Just ask KW or anyone with the White Sox FO.

 

Sure, we can pick apart Taveras' 2007 season, but if we went by one season, Jon Danks would have been horrible in 2008 based on his 2007 numbers and Gavin Floyd never would have been acquired based on his past MLB stats. Alexei Ramirez would have been playing in Winston-Salem or Birmingham, based on "conventional" wisdom.

Okay, so we'll pick apart the rest of his full seasons in the league. Yep, terrible. Okay.

 

Speed does slump, especially when you don't get on base at a decent rate. Guess what? All facets of the game are susceptible to slumps; do you get your baseball ideology from the Grinder Rules campaign?

[eickevinmorris]

Ok so fine. But the Colorado fans didn't care. They threw s*** at him and called him names and when he stole bases they tried to charge the field.

 

Something in Colorado f***ed his head up.

I laughed.

[caulfield12]

He's only done this once, in a 97 game season. The likelihood of him eclipsing .300/.340 in a full season is minimal at best.

 

OBP absolutely trumps SLG%, that's irrefutable. Leadoff isn't a position, it's simply a spot in the order, one that doesn't matter much as a player leads off once (!) a game. The important thing is finding a high OBP player to put there, not a fast guy with a terrible OBP.

 

 

 

Maybe we should try Nick Swisher there. He has a REALLY high career OBP. Great, problem solved! Let's dance! Cue David Bowie soundtrack. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

 

THIS DEBATE IS MORE FUN/AMUSING THAN debating what the government here in Thailand will do to open the Bangkok airport.

Edited November 30, 2008 by caulfield12

[eickevinmorris]

Maybe we should try Nick Swisher there. He has a REALLY high career OBP. Great, problem solved! Let's dance! Cue David Bowie soundtrack. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

It would have been fine with me. Unfortunately, Nick had a rather bad season.

 

Of course, you're probably going off last year's numbers only -- something you wouldn't want us to do for Taveras.

[caulfield12]

It would have been fine with me. Unfortunately, Nick had a rather bad season.

 

Of course, you're probably going off last year's numbers only -- something you wouldn't want us to do for Taveras.

 

The point is that Swisher has never been a leadoff hitter and that's not a place where he is comfortable. You can't fit a round peg in a square hole. We kind of saw that with Cabrera leading off...or AJ hitting second. They were so-so, but there are many out there who could have done better. Swisher, obviously not being one of them.

 

Taveras is, and he's coming off a so-so season. If we always wanted to acquire talent at it's highest possible value, and not expect it to fall in value but continue rising, KW should quit playing General Manager and just go to work not for Warren Buffett but for Obama, because it's going take that level of intelligence (someone who's always right about the future) and prescience to get us out of this financial/economic mess.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Your statement that AJ plays defense "well" ruins any shred of credibility you still had.

 

1. Not all tools are equal, that statement is f***ing amazingly ignorant.

2. Not really sure what you're getting at with this contact argument. Sure, Willy makes good contact, but he doesn't walk or make good contact, as evidenced by his horrendous XBH totals.

AJ's defense behind the plate is more than throwing out baserunners at a poor rate. He's great at preventing WP and passed balls which then expands the strikezone for his pitchers.

 

1. All tools can be equally effective to a team. It's a team game. When there is no one on base and you need a run against a good pitcher for example, it's much easier to score in a bunt hit, stolen base, sacrifice situation then it is to hit a home run.

2. He doesn't have power, so his flyballs are pretty much all pop ups and s***, but he still hits line drives. His LD% has been pretty much equal to Thome's over the last four years. Power in contact is not the same as contact. He puts the ball in play.

[sircaffey]

Okay, so we'll pick apart the rest of his full seasons in the league. Yep, terrible. Okay.

 

Speed does slump, especially when you don't get on base at a decent rate. Guess what? All facets of the game are susceptible to slumps; do you get your baseball ideology from the Grinder Rules campaign?

 

Not only that, but one tweak of the groin sends Taveras from a modestly acceptable player to nothing. We saw what being bothered by a leg injury did to Podsednik in 2006. Taveras is only effective at 100%. Over an 162 game season, even more with playoffs, that is quite the risk. Having 100% of your effectiveness based on your legs is a recipe for disaster.

[eickevinmorris]

The point is that Swisher has never been a leadoff hitter and that's not a place where he is comfortable. You can't fit a round peg in a square hole. We kind of saw that with Cabrera leading off...or AJ hitting second. They were so-so, but there are many out there who could have done better. Swisher, obviously not being one of them.

 

Taveras is, and he's coming off a so-so season. If we always wanted to acquire talent at it's highest possible value, and not expect it to fall in value but continue rising, KW should quit playing General Manager and just go to work not for Warren Buffett but for Obama, because it's going take that level of intelligence (someone who's always right about the future) and prescience to get us out of this financial/economic mess.

Orlando Cabrera leading off in 2008: .293/.341/.386

Orlando Cabrera hitting 2nd in 2008: .234/.305/.305

 

Taveras' season wasn't so-so -- it was horrible.

 

 

[eickevinmorris]

AJ's defense behind the plate is more than throwing out baserunners at a poor rate. He's great at preventing WP and passed balls which then expands the strikezone for his pitchers.

 

1. All tools can be equally effective to a team. It's a team game. When there is no one on base and you need a run against a good pitcher for example, it's much easier to score in a bunt hit, stolen base, sacrifice situation then it is to hit a home run.

2. He doesn't have power, so his flyballs are pretty much all pop ups and s***, but he still hits line drives. His LD% has been pretty much equal to Thome's over the last four years. Power in contact is not the same as contact. He puts the ball in play.

1. Yes, but some are more equal than others. That's academic.

2. So what if he and Thome have the same LD%? That proves nothing.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Not only that, but one tweak of the groin sends Taveras from a modestly acceptable player to nothing. We saw what being bothered by a leg injury did to Podsednik in 2006. Taveras is only effective at 100%. Over an 162 game season, even more with playoffs, that is quite the risk. Having 100% of your effectiveness based on your legs is a recipe for disaster.

That's true for anyone though. We saw what a hand/thumb injury did to Paulie last year. All it takes is something small for anyone, but Taveras doesn't have the injury history that Pods does. He'll be 28 next year so he's still young enough that we'd get him in his groin's prime.

[caulfield12]

Not only that, but one tweak of the groin sends Taveras from a modestly acceptable player to nothing. We saw what being bothered by a leg injury did to Podsednik in 2006. Taveras is only effective at 100%. Over an 162 game season, even more with playoffs, that is quite the risk. Having 100% of your effectiveness based on your legs is a recipe for disaster.

 

 

Well, then we should trade away Thome, Dye, AJ and Konerko because they're MORE likely to get injured...and Vazquez, Buehrle and especially Jenks because they too are injury risks.

 

You take away the legs of Hanley Ramirez or Jose Reyes, they're going to be dramatically less effective as hitters and fielders as well. Nobody can play well with injuries.

 

However, when you have a younger/speedier/more athletic team, the odds are in your favor, and having one fast player on your team go down won't cripple your entire line-up. This is more how the Angels and Rays attack other teams. Actually, the Red Sox with Ellsbury are fairly similar...although I'm sure we could have another LONG debate/thread comparing Ellsbury to Taveras too.

 

 

[caulfield12]

That's true for anyone though. We saw what a hand/thumb injury did to Paulie last year. All it takes is something small for anyone, but Taveras doesn't have the injury history that Pods does. He'll be 28 next year so he's still young enough that we'd get him in his groin's prime.

 

 

Plus, Taveras doesn't have quite as many miles on his tires. He spent so long in the minors, and he really wore down his body and his legs stealing bases, because that was the only way he could prove to the Mariners and then Brewers he belonged in the big leagues.

 

Not to mention Paulie had the rib cage pull/tear and hurt his knee down the stretch. When he was closer to 100% in the final 6 weeks, he was back to the normal Konerko we've come to suspect.

[eickevinmorris]

Well, then we should trade away Thome, Dye, AJ and Konerko because they're MORE likely to get injured...and Vazquez, Buehrle and especially Jenks because they too are injury risks.

 

You take away the legs of Hanley Ramirez or Jose Reyes, they're going to be dramatically less effective as hitters and fielders as well. Nobody can play well with injuries.

 

However, when you have a younger/speedier/more athletic team, the odds are in your favor, and having one fast player on your team go down won't cripple your entire line-up. This is more how the Angels and Rays attack other teams. Actually, the Red Sox with Ellsbury are fairly similar...although I'm sure we could have another LONG debate/thread comparing Ellsbury to Taveras too.

You are meandering around the point. Also, please don't try to make the comparison of Taveras to Ellsbury, that's terrible.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

1. Yes, but some are more equal than others. That's academic.

2. So what if he and Thome have the same LD%? That proves nothing.

Thome's LD% doesn't prove anything aside from that fact that Taveras does hit line drives himself just like some other good big league hitters, he's not like a slap hitter only like Gathright or something. His problems come when he hits the ball in the air.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[eickevinmorris]

Thome's LD% doesn't prove anything aside from that fact that Taveras does hit line drives himself just like some other good big league hitters, he's not like a slap hitter only like Gathright or something. His problems come when he hits the ball in the air.

He also doesn't hit XBH hits like good big league hitters, or even below average major league hitters.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Plus, Taveras doesn't have quite as many miles on his tires. He spent so long in the minors, and he really wore down his body and his legs stealing bases, because that was the only way he could prove to the Mariners and then Brewers he belonged in the big leagues.

 

Not to mention Paulie had the rib cage pull/tear and hurt his knee down the stretch. When he was closer to 100% in the final 6 weeks, he was back to the normal Konerko we've come to suspect.

True, and Willy is a far more talented player than Pods, who we got for his Age 29-31 seasons.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

He also doesn't hit XBH hits like good big league hitters, or even below average major league hitters.

Good big league power hitters and below average power hitters - because you're talking about SLG% not batting average - do not have the elite speed and base stealing ability of Taveras. Therefore while the are more dangerous at the plate as far as the XBH goes, they are less dangerous in terms of scoring should they get on.

[eickevinmorris]

Good big league power hitters and below average power hitters - because you're talking about SLG% not batting average - do not have the elite speed and base stealing ability of Taveras. Therefore while the are more dangerous at the plate as far as the XBH goes, they are less dangerous in terms of scoring should they get on.

Again, the ability to either reach base or drive someone is much, much more important than the ability to steal a base. He is simply not a good offensive player.

[sircaffey]

Well, then we should trade away Thome, Dye, AJ and Konerko because they're MORE likely to get injured...and Vazquez, Buehrle and especially Jenks because they too are injury risks.

 

You take away the legs of Hanley Ramirez or Jose Reyes, they're going to be dramatically less effective as hitters and fielders as well. Nobody can play well with injuries.

 

However, when you have a younger/speedier/more athletic team, the odds are in your favor, and having one fast player on your team go down won't cripple your entire line-up. This is more how the Angels and Rays attack other teams. Actually, the Red Sox with Ellsbury are fairly similar...although I'm sure we could have another LONG debate/thread comparing Ellsbury to Taveras too.

 

Yes, all players don't play great with injuries, but some can't play at all with them. That's Willy T. I'm not specifically talking about injuries that put you on the DL. You use your legs in everything you do. Over the course of an 162 game season, your legs are not going to be 100% a lot of the time even if they aren't "injured." If Willy's legs are even 85% he's absolutely worthless. So when you say speed doesn't slump, that's completely false because Willy will go through periods where his legs are dead. He's not a machine.

[knightni]

Would you accept an OBP of .331, a BA of .283 and 50 SB?

 

Would you accept a .980 fielding % in center field?

 

Those are his averages in his career.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/taverwi01.shtml