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2009 Hall of Fame Ballot


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i dont like santo for a variety of reasons, i think he campaigns for himself to get into the hall more than anyone I can remember in my lifetime...and i find that extraordinarily annoying and it really makes me like the guy alot less.....while i certainly empathize with his plight against diabetes and respect him for his charity work, i believe he uses his diabetes as a crutch to get into the HOF, which i also dislike....in addition he is the most annoying of all announcers in sports, and is the quintessential annoying cub fan....even going beyond being an annoying announcer, he is a bad, bad, bad announcer who does very little homework on the subject and barely knows opposing rosters sometimes

 

that said from a strictly baseball standpoint...its very hard for me to tell whether guys before my time are or aren't HOFers...i've heard some good arguments for Santo's induction, and some for keeping him out....One line of argument I do not believe in is the "Well Such and Such is in, and Santo has better numbers, so he should be in too".... It may be a mistake that one guy is already in, but that doesn't mean we should make another mistake by letting another, perhaps undeserving player in either...whether or not he should be in as a baseball player, I have no clue...but from a personal standpoint im not really rooting for the guy, even though I do feel bad for him having to live with diabetes

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QUOTE (daa84 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 02:28 PM)
i dont like santo for a variety of reasons, i think he campaigns for himself to get into the hall more than anyone I can remember in my lifetime...and i find that extraordinarily annoying and it really makes me like the guy alot less.....while i certainly empathize with his plight against diabetes and respect him for his charity work, i believe he uses his diabetes as a crutch to get into the HOF, which i also dislike....in addition he is the most annoying of all announcers in sports, and is the quintessential annoying cub fan....even going beyond being an annoying announcer, he is a bad, bad, bad announcer who does very little homework on the subject and barely knows opposing rosters sometimes

 

that said from a strictly baseball standpoint...its very hard for me to tell whether guys before my time are or aren't HOFers...i've heard some good arguments for Santo's induction, and some for keeping him out....One line of argument I do not believe in is the "Well Such and Such is in, and Santo has better numbers, so he should be in too".... It may be a mistake that one guy is already in, but that doesn't mean we should make another mistake by letting another, perhaps undeserving player in either...whether or not he should be in as a baseball player, I have no clue...but from a personal standpoint im not really rooting for the guy, even though I do feel bad for him having to live with diabetes

 

THAT!

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QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 02:06 PM)
What would you standard be?

 

To me, its a little like pornography; hard to define, but I know it when I see it.

 

I'd keep it pretty closely tied to some of the "sacred" numbers: 300 wins; 3000Ks, 500 Hrs, 3,000 hits; etc. Guys who fell short of those marks due to injury, etc. would still have to have performed at a similar pace over a good period of time. Intangibly speaking, I'd also look at guys who dominated and/or led their leagues for consistent periods, who could change the face of game or a series, and who you'd absolutely hate to face in crucial situations. I'd pay significantly less attention to All-Star nods or Gold Gloves (things you hear brought up all the time in the case for Santo), as too often those are jokes.

 

 

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If Santo got in, the late 60's cubs would have 4 HOF members that other than in 69 were not that good of teams. Something is there for me as to why he should not get in and I am not sure what it is. I also believe he was not well liked by the media or his peers. If his grand standing is not working then there is a reason why he is not in there and he needs to accept it. I have never heard someone politick more than him to get himself in. He almost feels like he is entitled to be in. I really think Billy Williams is keeping him out.

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QUOTE (Jenks Heat @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 03:04 PM)
If Santo got in, the late 60's cubs would have 4 HOF members that other than in 69 were not that good of teams. Something is there for me as to why he should not get in and I am not sure what it is. I also believe he was not well liked by the media or his peers. If his grand standing is not working then there is a reason why he is not in there and he needs to accept it. I have never heard someone politick more than him to get himself in. He almost feels like he is entitled to be in. I really think Billy Williams is keeping him out.

 

I do not pay close attention to this, so forgive me for asking. Did Santo and Williams not get along?

 

I have heard he was not well liked by opponents but not necessarily by teammates. BTW, the Cubs of Santo's era were known to have a solid, if not potent, lineup but not much on the mound. Hence the Brock for Broglio trade. So, no matter how many winning or losing teams he was on, he definitely had protection in the lineup for most of his career.

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I think Santo is a borderline HOFer. He had a lot of very good to great years. He was done when he was 34 but still got 15 years in. I think maybe his campaigning has rubbed the Veteran's committee the wrong way. Its almost like some are saying I'm will not be influenced by his health problems. Per 162 games, he hit more homeruns, had more rbi and had a better OBP than Harold Baines, and was a stellar defensive 3rd baseman. As much as I don't care for the guy and wonder why he keeps putting those awful rugs on top of his head, if he's going to make the HOF, and I think he will, they should do it before he's dead. Its not like he's some criminal or something. Let him enjoy it instead of dying dissappointed when you know he's going to eventually get in.

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QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 05:56 PM)
B&B talked about this earlier today, and I couldn't agree more with what they said.

 

It's quite sad Santo has resorted to saying " I don't know how much longer I'm going to be around, blah,blah,blah" Mortality shouldn't factor into who goes to the Hall of Fame. Because he is sick, that should increase his chances?

 

Sorry if that comes off harsh, but it's the truth.

It shouldn't, and I'm saying don't make him a HOFer just because he will probably not be around much longer. He really has earned a place in the HOF. He certainly wasn't a first ballot guy, but he's been done playing for 34 years, and his credentials are good enough. Guys as close as he's come to getting in, always get in eventually. He's waited long enough. 10 years from now, there's a 99% chance he's in IMO. That's probably the same percentage chance of him not being around to enjoy it. I have been repulsed by his campaigning and crying about it as much as anyone, but I think this year was time. 2 wrongs don't make a right. I think he has to wait a couple of years now. I'm just saying if he's going to get in, and all indications are that he will, do the right thing and elect him when he's alive.

 

If Ron Santo played for the White Sox and had the exact same career, this board would be outraged today. Believe me, I'm a guy who in the past has taken some glee out of him being shut out. But no more. Its time.

Edited by Dick Allen
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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 06:06 PM)
It shouldn't, and I'm saying don't make him a HOFer just because he will probably not be around much longer. He really has earned a place in the HOF. He certainly wasn't a first ballot guy, but he's been done playing for 34 years, and his credentials are good enough. Guys as close as he's come to getting in, always get in eventually. He's waited long enough. 10 years from now, there's a 99% chance he's in IMO. That's probably the same percentage chance of him not being around to enjoy it. I have been repulsed by his campaigning and crying about it as much as anyone, but I think this year was time. 2 wrongs don't make a right. I think he has to wait a couple of years now. I'm just saying if he's going to get in, and all indications are that he will, do the right thing and elect him when he's alive.

 

If Ron Santo played for the White Sox and had the exact same career, this board would be outraged today. Believe me, I'm a guy who in the past has taken some glee out of him being shut out. But no more. Its time.

 

Robin Ventura says hello. In a little over one less season, he had some very similar stats, including fielding percentage. He is 50 HR short of Santo but in about 1000 fewer AB. They both have a case full of gold gloves. Santo was in far more ASG.

 

Go ahead and tell me how Santo was better. Maybe, but not by much. The fact is he was barely getting a sniff at the HOF in his 15 years of eligibility. His highest percentage was in the low 40s.

 

Most of us never saw the guy play. Numbers alone do not always make a HOF player. Those that saw him are pretty split on his merit. From what I hear from those who saw him, he was the master of the meaningless home run, struck out a ton with the game on the line, and was despised by opponents.

 

 

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QUOTE (Pants Rowland @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 07:35 PM)
Robin Ventura says hello. In a little over one less season, he had some very similar stats, including fielding percentage. He is 50 HR short of Santo but in about 1000 fewer AB. They both have a case full of gold gloves. Santo was in far more ASG.

 

Go ahead and tell me how Santo was better. Maybe, but not by much. The fact is he was barely getting a sniff at the HOF in his 15 years of eligibility. His highest percentage was in the low 40s.

 

Most of us never saw the guy play. Numbers alone do not always make a HOF player. Those that saw him are pretty split on his merit. From what I hear from those who saw him, he was the master of the meaningless home run, struck out a ton with the game on the line, and was despised by opponents.

Different eras. When Santo was done playing, I believe he was second all time in homers by a thirdbaseman. I could be wrong but I think I read that. I don't think being despised by opponents should hurt your chances to get in. The last 3 elections he's been 8,5, and 9 votes short. He's going to get in. Its just a matter of time.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 07:46 PM)
Different eras. When Santo was done playing, I believe he was second all time in homers by a thirdbaseman. I could be wrong but I think I read that. I don't think being despised by opponents should hurt your chances to get in. The last 3 elections he's been 8,5, and 9 votes short. He's going to get in. Its just a matter of time.

 

Maybe, but he was an afterthought for many of his years of eligibility. All of his lobbying and sob stories have helped, but he is still coming up short. Doesn't sound too deserving to me.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 06:06 PM)
If Ron Santo played for the White Sox and had the exact same career, this board would be outraged today. Believe me, I'm a guy who in the past has taken some glee out of him being shut out. But no more. Its time.

 

I don't know about that. Baines had better numbers and I don't think he should be in.

 

HOF goes beyond stats. It seems you have to have a great moment, be it post season or regular season and he never really did.

 

If he ever gets in, it would just be a mercy vote. Never saw Santo play, but there are plenty of other guys I put in over Santo.

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ugh, everytime this comes up for a vote I hate Ron Santo more. Personally I would like to get in knowing that is was strictly my career and not my campaigning that got me in. I think if he does get in that it wouldn't be as sweet as getting in without all the whining.

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QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 12:40 PM)
Dick Allen deserves it more anyways, he was more dominant IMO.

 

I have heard he was one of the most talented players you will ever see...and one of the bigger head cases, too. I think he was the first Sox player to reach the CF bleachers at the old ballpark.

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QUOTE (Jimbo's Drinker @ Dec 9, 2008 -> 02:31 PM)
So Santo wants us to feel for his diabetes.

 

He also drank like a fish which I am sure did not help his casue in the long run.

 

Never heard that one. He sounds pretty loaded when he broadcasts so it makes sense.

 

I am actually glad he is calling out the veterans committee. This may now be the last time he gets remotely close to getting in.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 07:46 PM)
Different eras. When Santo was done playing, I believe he was second all time in homers by a thirdbaseman. I could be wrong but I think I read that. I don't think being despised by opponents should hurt your chances to get in. The last 3 elections he's been 8,5, and 9 votes short. He's going to get in. Its just a matter of time.

And he did it with Diabetes, dont worry, he'll tell you a few times just so you remember.

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Does anybody think that Santo will get in, but when he dies? I know most former players can't stand him, and i'm thinking that's the only way they vote him in.

Either that or when some of the members of the veteran commitee who hold something against him start dying off.

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