Vazquez & Logan Dealt to Braves

[caulfield12]

Something else to remember. the last time the White Sox offered a pool of prospects to another team to choose from, it worked out well for us...overhyped CF Anthony Webster, P Josh Rupe and P Frank Francisco.

 

To this day, KW has given up very little that we can sit about and be really, really upset about...

 

Francisco

Chris Young

Carlos Torres

Ryan Sweeney

 

That's about it...maybe Gio Gonzalez, although he obviously took a step back in his development this season.

[GoodAsGould]

Something else to remember. the last time the White Sox offered a pool of prospects to another team to choose from, it worked out well for us...overhyped CF Anthony Webster, P Josh Rupe and P Frank Francisco.

 

To this day, KW has given up very little that we can sit about and be really, really upset about...

 

Francisco

Chris Young

Carlos Torres

Ryan Sweeney

 

That's about it...maybe Gio Gonzalez, although he obviously took a step back in his development this season.

 

Dont forget about Cunningham, that trade turned out pretty poor since Richar basicly did nothing for us. The other player who might become very good is Carter, but since we got Quentin in return its not much of a loss. So far the only trades I havent been satisfied with were the original Swisher trade, the Cunningham trade, and Carlos Lee trade. I did like Swisher as a player, just felt like we gave up a lot for him and obviously it didnt really work out.

[knightni]

Don't you mean a 1-2-3-4-5 of Danks, Beckham, Flowers, Quentin, Vicideo?

 

I'm optimistically drooling at the idea of all them panning out ala the 90's Indians

 

Danks CF

Beckham 2B

Quentin RF

Viciedo 3B

Gillmore 1B

Ramirez LF

Shelby DH

Flowers C

Lillibridge SS

 

 

 

 

 

[joejoesox]

Something else to remember. the last time the White Sox offered a pool of prospects to another team to choose from, it worked out well for us...overhyped CF Anthony Webster, P Josh Rupe and P Frank Francisco.

 

To this day, KW has given up very little that we can sit about and be really, really upset about...

 

Francisco

Chris Young

Carlos Torres

Ryan Sweeney

 

That's about it...maybe Gio Gonzalez, although he obviously took a step back in his development this season.

 

Has anyone posted in this long thread about being upset that we only got younger by trading Javy (and Boone), and not necessarily better? I think I'm worried as a fan that the ~12 million + Boone's small salary will not be reinvested into the major league club, and will be marked away as "Trimming the payroll". That doesn't sit well with me after winning the division. If Kenny deals JD for another handful of prospects, I feel strongly that this could lead to a small firesale and the team is not going to be very competitive in 2009

 

He himself was 12-16, however I put zero relevance in a pitchers Win/Loss record. Having said that, the Sox won 16 games of the 33 games Javier started (48.4% Winning Percentage). There were a handful of games that he started throughout the year where he hadn't gotten any run support (e.g. vs. NYY, TOR twice, OAK, TB, and BAL), so we had opportunities to turn Javy's personal W/L into something more respectable, while winning more games as a team as well

 

I'm not against this trade, not one bit (Flowers sounds like an elite prospect, and I'm excited to have him in our system), but unless that money is reinvested into a free agent signing, or we flip some of our minor leaguers for a MLB-ready #4-5 starting pitcher, it will leave me a bit concerned as a fan. IMO trading Jermaine Dye, despite the fact that some people feel he's "injury-prone", would hurt the club more than it would help, unless we used the money to sign Furcal or another top-level free agent

[TLAK]

All three Major Leaguers the White Sox have or are in the process of shipping out share one thing in common. Swisher, Vazquez and Logan all made Ozzie's s__t list.

 

In the playoffs, Swisher wasn't starting over DeWayne Wise, Vazquez was publicly going to be skipped had the series moved forward and I don't think Logan even made the roster.

 

There is no sense in hanging on to players if the Manager isn't going to use them.

 

So if the White Sox get anything at all out the players they receive it’s a plus for the team. If every single guy they acquire falls flat on their face then the trade is even.

 

[G&T]

Has anyone posted in this long thread about being upset that we only got younger by trading Javy (and Boone), and not necessarily better? I think I'm worried as a fan that the ~12 million + Boone's small salary will not be reinvested into the major league club, and will be marked away as "Trimming the payroll". That doesn't sit well with me after winning the division. If Kenny deals JD for another handful of prospects, I feel strongly that this could lead to a small firesale and the team is not going to be very competitive in 2009

 

He himself was 12-16, however I put zero relevance in a pitchers Win/Loss record. Having said that, the Sox won 16 games of the 33 games Javier started (48.4% Winning Percentage). There were a handful of games that he started throughout the year where he hadn't gotten any run support (e.g. vs. NYY, TOR twice, OAK, TB, and BAL), so we had opportunities to turn Javy's personal W/L into something more respectable, while winning more games as a team as well

 

I'm not against this trade, not one bit (Flowers sounds like an elite prospect, and I'm excited to have him in our system), but unless that money is reinvested into a free agent signing, or we flip some of our minor leaguers for a MLB-ready #4-5 starting pitcher, it will leave me a bit concerned as a fan. IMO trading Jermaine Dye, despite the fact that some people feel he's "injury-prone", would hurt the club more than it would help, unless we used the money to sign Furcal or another top-level free agent

 

First, there is no way to know about how the money will be used at least until the winter meetings, and possibly the end of the off-season. So, stop worrying about it. And even if there isn't another move, remember that this division sucks. The Twins might be the only decent team next season besides the Sox. So they will be competitive.

 

Second, you should put relevance into Javy's win/loss record because he gets a decision in almost every start. He wins or loses his games. In the end, this trade was about his performance at the end of the season and in the playoffs AND getting a surplus of young talent.

 

Third, I think it's likely we see a move for a free agent. Not Furcal though.

 

In case anyone is wondering about a Peavy deal, I'd say the Sox would be taking on 5 years for $80M ($16M per). That includes picking up the 2013 team option ($22M) in exchange for waive his NTC. That's not too bad for the type of pitcher he is, considering the price tag on CC.

 

Edited December 3, 2008 by G&T

[Princess Dye]

Has anyone posted in this long thread about being upset that we only got younger by trading Javy (and Boone), and not necessarily better?

 

The two guys we traded away are semi-disappointments. I'm fine with getting the catcher, the rest is gravy.

 

This and Swisher and the departing FAs leaves us a chunk of cash. We'll see what happens; i have to wait til Opening Day to judge the offseason. Past it, really.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Princess Dye

[Texsox]

Any of these guys Cuban?

 

I don't know, I've always placed mlb talent above potential. Javy is a solid back of the rotation guy. Perhaps it is memories of the last time we celebrated a WS, but it came on the backs of the pitching staff. With so many question marks in the rotation, next season will be interesting to say the least. Much earlier it was mentioned it will be fun watching these guy develop. I'm not so certain. Winning games is fun. Watching guys develop is usually what I think about at the levels beginning with Rookie and ending at AAA.

 

Also, just having money available doesn't necessarily guarantee you will be high bidder for a player. It especially doesn't mean you will be the high bidder for "The" player you desire.

 

And it seems we added another big, slow, power hitter . . . stop me if you've heard this before.

 

Bottom line, if we were a floundering franchise without a recent history of success, what the hell, roll the dice again. I'm not sold that this was the best move for this team. Not to say there isn't a lot of great upside and plenty of scenarios where this will be a great trade. But there seems to be an equal number of downside possibilities.

[Texsox]

All three Major Leaguers the White Sox have or are in the process of shipping out share one thing in common. Swisher, Vazquez and Logan all made Ozzie's s__t list.

 

In the playoffs, Swisher wasn't starting over DeWayne Wise, Vazquez was publicly going to be skipped had the series moved forward and I don't think Logan even made the roster.

 

There is no sense in hanging on to players if the Manager isn't going to use them.

 

So if the White Sox get anything at all out the players they receive it's a plus for the team. If every single guy they acquire falls flat on their face then the trade is even.

 

Great points. The only caution I would add is Javy was used, and used a lot, in the regular season. No doubt he craps his pants in big games.There probably is room for someone to drive you to the dance then get the hell out of sight.

[joejoesox]

G&T, good post. However I disagree with you that our division is set to suck again for 2009. With the offseason just starting, we don't know what DET and CLE will look like next year, and I believe CLE will be a much better team in 2009, they were great down the stretch this year and ended up being .500

 

Put that into perspective given how bad their record was half-way through the year (41-54)

[Texsox]

G&T, good post. However I disagree with you that our division is set to suck again for 2009. With the offseason just starting, we don't know what DET and CLE will look like next year, and I believe CLE will be a much better team in 2009, they were great down the stretch this year and ended up being .500

 

Put that into perspective given how bad their record was half-way through the year (41-54)

 

I think you have to assume that those teams play up to their potential, and then be pleasantly surprised if they do suck.

[NorthSideSox72]

Standing alone, I call the trade a wash. I like what we get back, particularly Flowers. Lillibridge's declining numbers over time scare be a bit, but he's potentially high reward. The other two look like they have talent but are too young to say much about yet.

 

We lose a LOOGY who wasn't used properly anyway, and we don't have any dire need for lefty relievers anyway (Thornton, Poreda, Richard all available). Javy is the big loss, and it is a substantial one - but those 4 prospects combined are pretty close to an even match for 2 years of Javy, I think.

 

Big key though is, we just cleared a whole bunch of payroll room. I bet KW makes use of it, and then you have to look at that combined with this trade and see how it turns out. Since this trade in a vacuum is near-even, I think there is a good chance that KW makes this into a steal.

 

And while everyone is discussing CF, my biggest concern is the rotation. Who gets the 4th and 5th slots? (Hm, thread idea...)

 

[southsider2k5]

G&T, good post. However I disagree with you that our division is set to suck again for 2009. With the offseason just starting, we don't know what DET and CLE will look like next year, and I believe CLE will be a much better team in 2009, they were great down the stretch this year and ended up being .500

 

Put that into perspective given how bad their record was half-way through the year (41-54)

 

The Indians seem to be Javy Vazquez as a team. When the expectations are high, they don't show up. Everyone expected big things from them in 06 after their huge push in 2005, and they disappointed. Then they had the big year in 2007, and didn't show up for the first half of 2008.

[Texsox]

Who gets the 4th and 5th slots? (Hm, thread idea...)

 

That is probably my biggest worry. Does anyone remember a few years back our stretch of bringing up guys to cough up 15 runs per game out of the #5 spot? It seemingly killed a few careers in the process.

[G&T]

G&T, good post. However I disagree with you that our division is set to suck again for 2009. With the offseason just starting, we don't know what DET and CLE will look like next year, and I believe CLE will be a much better team in 2009, they were great down the stretch this year and ended up being .500

 

Put that into perspective given how bad their record was half-way through the year (41-54)

 

That's fine. My point is simply that if there was ever a time to re-tool, now would be the time. This isn't the AL East.

[joejoesox]

And it seems we added another big, slow, power hitter . . . stop me if you've heard this before.

 

Another big, slow, former catcher converted to 1B, stop me if you've heard this before...

 

[harfman77]

Overall, a very lackluster haul, but I am so glad Vazquez is gone so I can't complain too much.

 

Lillebridge still has some nice potential at a couple positions and offers some power and SPEED. I think he'll be on our team in some capacity next year barring another trade.

 

The other guys are really low minors prospects and I never get excited over someone in A ball, though the players we did get have some potential and goodness knows our minor leagues needed a shot of that.

 

The fact Kenny moved that turd earns this move a B- in my book.

 

I also think Kenny isn't even close to being done...I believe he is going to essentially rebuild this team in one season giving it a new look

 

 

Everyone here is drooling over what Beckham did in the AFL, Flowers put up better numbers and is about the same age. So are you not excited about Slayer either?

[Steve9347]

I think it's more that it gives him > than 1 path to get to MLB...

 

A problem he was probably sensitive to, being blocked as a catcher in the Atlanta organization.

I love it.

[harfman77]

Uh-oh

 

 

Even Flowers is questioning his long term position at C.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,0,628845.story

 

I dont think he is questioning it as much as he is saying that it allows him another opportunity to make it to the majors faster.

[NCsoxfan]

maybe KW envisions him as a long term DH and backup C

[southsider2k5]

maybe KW envisions him as a long term DH and backup C

 

With Konerko's deal being done after 2010, 1b is another possibility.

[Texsox]

With Konerko's deal being done after 2010, that is another possibility.

 

DH and backup catcher? Nah, Konerko can't catch

[caulfield12]

Realistically, we have "star" caliber players (POSSIBLY) in the pipeline in Viciedo, Beckham and Flowers. Flowers isn't/wasn't as useful to the Braves as he is to the White Sox, especially as a long-term replacement for Konerko or Thome.

 

You also have Brandon Allen with a lot of upside, too.

 

The way, I look at it, we have very solid depth everywhere now (even Cole Armstrong looked promising in AFL) but CF and the starting rotation.

 

I don't want to restart the Taveras/Owens/Anderson thread again, but something can and will be done to strengthen that position before Opening Day. Perhaps Lillibridge figures in there as well, but he's untested/unproven as a hitter and as a defender in center. It was just a theory in ATL that he could replace Andruw Jones, but I guess that's promising in and of itself that he has the skill set to potentially play there (hopefully better than Mackowiak/Swisher/Griffey). Then you also have a "natural" CFer in Jordan Danks.

 

I'm a firm believer we can find another starter for either Jenks or Dye...and we will hold onto both to get a better return, as the dominoes all fall into place with K-Rod and Fuentes setting the market.

 

There are many interesting possibilities at under $7.5 million for fifth starter. Glavine. Mulder. Colon. Duchscherer (possibly). Freddy Garcia. Schilling. Pedro. Randy Johnson. Braden Looper. Marquis, if the Cubs will subsidize some of his contract for us to take him off their hands. one of them will fall into our hands eventually. The big key is finding that next Danks/Floyd...whether it's Edwin Jackson or Homer Bailey, he's there somewhere, another diamond in the rough.

 

My big concern is the Indians. Lee will inevitably slip back a little/regress, but Carmona has plenty of upside after an erratic 2008, and both Reyes and Lewis have terrific potential, but it's just that (like Danks and Floyd coming into 08). Also, they have a huge hole in the 5th spot with Laffey and Sowers, just like most of our divisional rivals. They'll miss Westbrook.

 

You'd have to say the Twins definitely have the best starting rotation at this point. DET has been decimated by the injuries to Bonderman and the non-performance of Dontrelle Willis. They have a couple of solid pitchers (but not "aces" to me) in Verlander and Galaragga. Robertson, I guess, is an adequate fifth starter compared to the White Sox or Indians.

 

KC actually isn't look bad at all either if Hochevar develops, to go with Greinke and Meche. Then the back of their rotation is iffy, Davies/Duckworth/Torres. But if Torres and Hochevar click at all, watch out, they could finally be a legit .500 ballclub.

Edited December 3, 2008 by caulfield12

[NCsoxfan]

^ I meant Flowers

[caulfield12]

With Konerko's deal being done after 2010, 1b is another possibility.

 

 

Allen, Viciedo, Fields and Flowers. One of them will probably be our starting 1B in 2011.