Vazquez & Logan Dealt to Braves

[kwolf68]

I can see the Willy Taveras thread arguments transferred to another one if Lillibridge was named the starting CFer (with his 2008 season highlights/lowlights featured prominently).

 

I'm no BA fan, but I would rather have BA or Owens or a BA/Owens platoon than Lillibridge as the starter there. At least we know Taveras can steal bases, and has the arm/speed/range to play the position at much better than MLB average for center.

 

 

I in no way suggested Lilli should be moved to CF...I have read he has a really good glove at SS. I was just tossing crap on the wall.

 

 

Oh as a FUNNY aside, I went to some Braves blog and they think we got ripped off....every player the Braves dealt was complete expendable and they got a ... get this..

 

TOP OF THE ROTATION starter.

[greg775]

Oh as a FUNNY aside, I went to some Braves blog and they think we got ripped off....every player the Braves dealt was complete expendable and they got a ... get this..

 

Javy and Boone truly suck, but as far as what we got in return. Let's see. I can't imagine we acquired very good prospects. Traditionally the Braves have been a smart organization. Javy is trash and so is Boone.

[caulfield12]

Looking at his stats, he's NEVER played CF and barely played 2B/3B more than a few games.

 

I really think KW will make him the starter at SS, and move Ramirez back to 2B or CF.

 

Otherwise, you're asking him to learn a whole new position on the fly in Spring Training. That doesn't make much sense to me. As noted above, he's most valuable to the Sox and other clubs at SS.

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/B...llibridge.shtml

Edited December 3, 2008 by caulfield12

[scenario]

Javy and Boone truly suck, but as far as what we got in return. Let's see. I can't imagine we acquired very good prospects. Traditionally the Braves have been a smart organization. Javy is trash and so is Boone.

 

You're so predictably negative sometimes.

 

"Our guys were trash. The other team is smart. So the guys we got must not be good."

 

LOL.

 

Good news... the guys we got are pretty good.

 

So, you can relax.

 

We didn't get ripped off.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I can see the Willy Taveras thread arguments transferred to another one if Lillibridge was named the starting CFer (with his 2008 season highlights/lowlights featured prominently).

 

I'm no BA fan, but I would rather have BA or Owens or a BA/Owens platoon than Lillibridge as the starter there. At least we know Taveras can steal bases, and has the arm/speed/range to play the position at much better than MLB average for center.

The only reason for defending Taveras after his 2008 season is his track record of making the most of his skillset. Lillibridge hasn't proven anything in the Majors, although his ceiling is probably higher since he's a SS.

 

Like others have stated, I'm still a bit confused by this move. I like it, no doubt, but it has me scratching my head just a little. Lillibridge immediately falls to no. 3 on the SS depth chart and we still don't have an MLB-ready SP. Lillibridge could make for some great IF depth on the '09 bench next to Betemit, but I think there's a good chance this move sets up another.

 

The Reds have confirmed the Dye discussions, and the Jenks discussions with the Mets have been confirmed as well, and both teams seem like good fits for the players they are after (Dye and Jenks), so putting it all together, maybe one of our IF is wanted by another of these teams to complete a deal? I know the Reds are kind of stuck with Gonzalez. Perhaps they covet Lillibridge, and he's the missing piece in a Dye + Lillibridge for Bailey + prospect(s) deal?

Edited December 3, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Kalapse]

Javy and Boone truly suck, but as far as what we got in return. Let's see. I can't imagine we acquired very good prospects. Traditionally the Braves have been a smart organization. Javy is trash and so is Boone.

Well in the past 2 years they've given away Max Ramirez and Willy Aybar for Bob Wickman and Jeff Ridgway.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Well in the past 2 years they've given away Max Ramirez and Willy Aybar for Bob Wickman and Jeff Ridgway.

In all fairness though, at the time Aybar had a serious substance abuse problem and skipped out on the team. There aren't going to be a ton of teams that will be willing to take on a guy like that.

[knightni]

Awesome article title

[scenario]

Uh-oh

 

 

Even Flowers is questioning his long term position at C.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,0,628845.story

 

I think it's more that it gives him > than 1 path to get to MLB...

 

A problem he was probably sensitive to, being blocked as a catcher in the Atlanta organization.

 

[greg775]

I read some of the articles saying we get JoJo Reyes instead of Lilledge?

Isn't Reyes also a stiff?

I don't mean to be that negative.

I just truly think Boone is worthless and I can't imagine anybody thinking Javy has much value past five innings.

I mean he's a five inning guy at best. Maybe in the NL that's very valuable.

[knightni]

I read some of the articles saying we get JoJo Reyes instead of Lilledge?

Isn't Reyes also a stiff?

I don't mean to be that negative.

I just truly think Boone is worthless and I can't imagine anybody thinking Javy has much value past five innings.

I mean he's a five inning guy at best. Maybe in the NL that's very valuable.

 

Reyes was the early report.

 

It's changed since then.

[greg775]

Oh, I see.

I think ESPN.com still has Reyes in there that's why I said that.

I'd prefer the other names, trusting you guys that those prospects are decent.

[Princess Dye]

The one day i'm away from these forums all day..and it happens.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I read some of the articles saying we get JoJo Reyes instead of Lilledge?

Isn't Reyes also a stiff?

I don't mean to be that negative.

I just truly think Boone is worthless and I can't imagine anybody thinking Javy has much value past five innings.

I mean he's a five inning guy at best. Maybe in the NL that's very valuable.

Reyes IMO has Jonathan Sanchez-like potential if he harnesses his control, so he's not garbage. But then again, both guys we're trading have a lot of ability too and neither of them have put it all together with any consistency. I'd much rather have Morton but there's something to hope for out of Reyes too.

[scenario]

I'd much rather have Morton but there's something to hope for out of Reyes too.

 

So... something Braves fans should look forward to then... since neither of them are coming to the WhiteSox in this deal.

Edited December 3, 2008 by scenario

[southsideirish71]

Gilmore article

[2nd_city_saint787]

I dont often chime in with links but i say this and it looks like this flowers kid is a stud

 

 

http://www.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=atl

 

 

I really dig this deal, the future is looking really really good for this sox team, i like what they are doing. Can you imagine a lineup a few years from now (if they all pan out) with...

 

 

 

C. Flowers

1b Allen

2b Beckham

3b Viciedo

ss Lillibridge

rf Shelby

lf Danks

cf Lexi

DH TCQ

 

and throw in

 

1 Danks

2 Floyd

3 Buehrle

4. Poreda

5. Richard

 

and thats just with what we have now, we still might trade dye and jenks so who knows what thatll give us back, in the next couple years kong and thome will prob be gone or traded, this team is gonna be cheap so theres no doubt there will be some big name signings thrown in there. I really love what Kenny is doing with this team.

 

(keep in mind the above was talking about the future so dont flip out)

 

[joejoesox]

From ESPN Boards:

 

AtlBraveFalconSince1986

Post #28: 12:03 am

Total Posts: 11518

I'm beginning to hate this trade so much, I wish I could time travel back to Monday, before this trade existed and kick Frank Wren square in the nutz, so that he will be hospitalized for a period of no less than 48 hours, and so he can't accpet the phone call from White Sox GM Kenny Williams, where Williams proceeded to violate Wren in ways that should not be allowed.

 

lol

 

From Yahoo Article Comments:

 

I've been a CWS fan for forty years, and while I absolutely love Kenny WIlliams, I cannot figure out why any other GM would want to deal with him. He's made a career out of rooking teams out of solid prospects for used-up garbage, or picking up players who are "need-change-of-scenery/reclamation-projects" (Contreras, Quentin, Jenks).

He must be the slickest, smoothest-talking jive-a** GM in recent history to pull off some of these trades (anybody remember him dealing Mike Sirotka to the Jays for David Wells, without informing the Jays that Sirotka had a bum shoulder that ended his career?).

I'm sure the Braves will look back on this trade in two or three years and say "What the hell were we thinking?"

 

LOL

Edited December 3, 2008 by joesaiditstrue

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

So now:

 

Buehrle

Floyd

Danks

A half season of ??? (Contreras MIA)

???

 

I don't know about just plugging in the two we had spot start for us at the end of the year. If this is in fact the much talked about rebuild, we have seen teams in the past compete whilst doing so. Danks and Floyd were great this past year, but sophomore slump/flash in the pan are coined phrases for a reason. Not saying they were flukes, but how many in the past have had one damn good year and then dropped off? I have faith in the two, but you are now, at this point at least, going into the season with one proven starter. On that same note we have Ramirez and Quentin. Not saying, just saying...

 

It's nice to speculate..."and what if we got Bailey, what a sick rotation that would be, even though he had a solid 8 ERA in the NL Central...", "dude, Pittsburgh has this disgusting nasty flamethrower in low A ball that we just highway robbered them for...". Firstly, with some of these guys we're talking years away, secondly, Coop is great, but him being here doesn't guarantee that whatever once highly touted fallen star prospect for another organization will suddenly see the light under his tutelage. Did Vazquez or Logan see the light? Reclamation projects are great when there are fall back options. There are no fall back options. (sign sheets!)

 

I'd rather not roll my dice in the futures market. I realize our position may be limited, but someone who's just about Major League ready to throw a ball with results, or an on the cheap vet (Sheets for example) needs to come our way. Words like "ace" shouldn't be attatched to a pitcher after one good season. There's nothing wrong with acquiring "years away" guys by chance, but I'm not a fan of making those players our sole targets. With Dye being rumored to leave, what did we get for Swisher who was coming off an all time low value-wise? Nothing at all? Betemit? For F***S sake... Baseball will be played in Chicago between the years of 2009-2012, after all. Had Swisher not been thrown away, the loss of Dye, should it happen, would have been more easily absorbed. Now, who's going to step into this corner outfield position to replace 50+ HR's? I hope to Christ it's Manny, because Betemit is good for like 4 or 5. I remember long periods of offensive struggle in the past two years. Losing arguably the biggest producer and one who had potential to be a big producer is not the remedy to this.

 

Luckily, it's just 12/02 and the action is just getting started. I imagine we won't go into next year with a 1-3 man rotation and 75 fewer HR's. I imagine and pray.

 

It may not seem like I like the trade from the words written above, but I do, at least this one. Javy was frustrating to watch, and clearly ties were severed between him and the organization from about September on. He needed to leave, and this is what I mean by acquiring years off guys by chance. I think with the Dye talks floating around I'm pissed that we let go of Swisher coming of the lowest of lows career production wise for a Wilson Betemit. And then they want to add the slugger Taveras to boot.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Swingandalongonetoleft

[JPN366]

Yeah, I've HEARD Lilly-bridge being immature in 2007.

[JPN366]

He just finished a season in the Carolina League. That means he'll be in Birmingham (AA) in 2009. So... there's time to work on his defense.

 

Meanwhile, his offensive skills are really advanced for his age. He literally destroyed pitching in the AFL this fall... an all-star league with most MLB teams' best pitching prospects... and that's a beautiful thing.

 

 

Woo Hoo! I was worried about him lighting up the Barons with the M-Braves, now it'll be the other way around. The 2009 Barons just got better. But...Andy Tomberlin is the hitting coach again. Ugh...

[caulfield12]

So now:

 

Buehrle

Floyd

Danks

A half season of ??? (Contreras MIA)

???

 

I don't know about just plugging in the two we had spot start for us at the end of the year. If this is in fact the much talked about rebuild, we have seen teams in the past compete whilst doing so. Danks and Floyd were great this past year, but sophomore slump/flash in the pan are coined phrases for a reason. Not saying they were flukes, but how many in the past have had one damn good year and then dropped off? I have faith in the two, but you are now, at this point at least, going into the season with one proven starter. On that same note we have Ramirez and Quentin. Not saying, just saying...

 

It's nice to speculate..."and what if we got Bailey, what a sick rotation that would be, even though he had a solid 8 ERA in the NL Central...", "dude, Pittsburgh has this disgusting nasty flamethrower in low A ball that we just highway robbered them for...". Firstly, with some of these guys we're talking years away, secondly, Coop is great, but him being here doesn't guarantee that whatever once highly touted fallen star prospect for another organization will suddenly see the light under his tutelage. Did Vazquez or Logan see the light? Reclamation projects are great when there are fall back options. There are no fall back options. (sign sheets!)

 

I'd rather not roll my dice in the futures market. I realize our position may be limited, but someone who's just about Major League ready to throw a ball with results, or an on the cheap vet (Sheets for example) needs to come our way. Words like "ace" shouldn't be attatched to a pitcher after one good season. There's nothing wrong with acquiring "years away" guys by chance, but I'm not a fan of making those players our sole targets. With Dye being rumored to leave, what did we get for Swisher who was coming off an all time low value-wise? Nothing at all? Betemit? For F***S sake... Baseball will be played in Chicago between the years of 2009-2012, after all. Had Swisher not been thrown away, the loss of Dye, should it happen, would have been more easily absorbed. Now, who's going to step into this corner outfield position to replace 50+ HR's? I hope to Christ it's Manny, because Betemit is good for like 4 or 5. I remember long periods of offensive struggle in the past two years. Losing arguably the biggest producer and one who had potential to be a big producer is not the remedy to this.

 

Luckily, it's just 12/02 and the action is just getting started. I imagine we won't go into next year with a 1-3 man rotation and 75 fewer HR's. I imagine and pray.

 

It may not seem like I like the trade from the words written above, but I do, at least this one. Javy was frustrating to watch, and clearly ties were severed between him and the organization from about September on. He needed to leave, and this is what I mean by acquiring years off guys by chance. I think with the Dye talks floating around I'm pissed that we let go of Swisher coming of the lowest of lows career production wise for a Wilson Betemit. And then they want to add the slugger Taveras to boot.

 

 

Sheets still won't be cheap. Arguably, he's the fourth best starter on the market.

 

The second tier is Jon Garland, Randy Wolf (whose own team didn't offer him arbitration) and Oliver Perez. All of those guys are expected to get 3-4 years and $40-50 million each.

 

Heck, Kyle Lohse, who pretty much anyone in baseball could have had a couple of seasons ago for FREE, just got $41 million over 4 years.

 

It would be nice to think a Sheets would want to pitch for us on an incentives-based contract, but why would he when other teams are willing to give him guaranteed money and a longer contract term?

 

With Swisher, Dayan Viciedo or Fields have approximately equal chances (between the two of them) to have even bigger impacts on the White Sox than Swisher would have...I would hardly call him an automatic 100 RBI guy, since he's never even done that once in his entire career. I certainly would never rank him ahead of Quentin/Thome/Dye/Konerko as a hitter or threat to other teams.

 

Next, wait to see what we do with the money from letting Swisher, Vazquez, Crede, Cabrera and Uribe. Then judge, but at least wait until next season has played out, and you might have to wait 2-3 years to see what type of impact, if any, that Marquez and Nunez have on the major league roster.

 

If nothing else were to be done before Opening Day, then I would obviously have a problem with that. But I seriously doubt that would happen.

 

 

 

 

[MexSoxFan#1]

Vazquez on the way out?Please tell me I m not dreaming,I won t miss her one bit,and to Boone Logan,don t let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya...I d trade those 2 bums for two dozen new bats right about now so the fact we are getting some live players is a big plus in my book.

Edited December 3, 2008 by MexSoxFan#1

[caulfield12]

http://www.southsidesox.com/

 

This time, I think the analysis is pretty good here...definitely worth a look.

 

Where the heck does Lillibridge fit? Can he learn 2B or CF on the fly? Is Alexei going to be moved to CF or back to 2B?

Are Lillibridge and Betemit just cheap/younger insurance policies for the likes of Ramirez, Fields, Viciedo and Beckham? What about Nix and maybe even Shelby down the line?

 

In many ways, we've got two somewhat similar players in Getz and Lillibridge (Getz has less speed, but makes more contact, neither will be confused with power hitters of tradional Sox yore)...then Betemit, who may or may not beat out Fields for 3B, or be part of platoon somewhere.

 

Flowers definitely might be looked at as the replacement for Thome in 2010...or the replacement for AJ, if he can improve his defense to at least just "below average." Otherwise, Armstrong deserves the spot. Between Brandon Allen and Flowers, and then adding in the potential impacts of Fields, Viciedo, Beckham and Jordan Danks, we LOOK to be sitting pretty for the time being.

 

 

FWIW, some of the Braves' fans think it would have been to pick up FA pitcher Braden Looper and not surrendered any prospects, especially Flowers. The Braves' fans consider Vazquez a 3 with the ability of a 2, whereas White Sox fans know he's a 4 with the ability of a 1. But they're already concerned the below .500 MLB record. That's a glaring stat that's difficult to ignore. The main selling point is his dependability, strikeouts and eating up innings. But it seems that there are better options for a team like the Braves than spending $23 million to do so. I guess it was a better risk to Wren than bringing back Glavine for the same price, basically.

Of course, I said the same thing about our system from 1999-2001 and it was eviscerated by injury and non-performance.

Edited December 3, 2008 by caulfield12

[beautox]

i really believe that in 2011 a 2-3-4-5 of beckham, flowers, quentin, viciedo could be really good and really young

 

Don't you mean a 1-2-3-4-5 of Danks, Beckham, Flowers, Quentin, Vicideo?

 

I'm optimistically drooling at the idea of all them panning out ala the 90's Indians