Vazquez & Logan Dealt to Braves

[caulfield12]

So Juan Rivera is going to lead off and play CF after shattering his leg, posting a .282 OBP, and playing one game in center over the last 2 years? Cool.

 

 

NO, NO, NO!!!

 

Who said anything about CF? Nobody that I can see.

 

I want Borbon from the Rangers for CF...Rivera would play LF, Quentin would shift to RF with the likely Dye trade.

 

Remember someone else who shattered his leg even worse, came over here on a "value" contract and proceeded to become a Top 5 AL MVP caliber player. A guy by the name of Jermaine Dye, hopefully that rings a bell. Wish we could look at the thread the day he was signed, I'm sure there were many similar comments to the ones being made about Rivera, although I'll grant you JD was a better player than Rivera was before they each broke their legs. Similar ages and everything. And Rivera would put up 30 homers playing 81 games at USCF.

Edited December 3, 2008 by caulfield12

[RockRaines]

No, he's the type of player (unlike Swisher and Cabrera) who would fit in perfectly with our current clubhouse.

 

Best pitching prospect? Well, recently, that's been the likes of Lance Broadway or Adam Russell. The jury is still out on Mr. Poreda. I hope he makes it as a starter and becomes the next Scott Kazmir and we forget about Porcello for a week or two. But I'm not counting my chickens until they're hatched here.

The jury isnt out at all. No scouts talked about either of those guys like they talk about Poreda, its apples and oranges once again, which seems to be your best technique to make your point.

 

Stop it with Borbon, its not gonna happen and is a terrible trade for us. We could get a ton more value for Jenks and Poreda.

[Cerbaho-WG]

So Juan Rivera is going to lead off and play CF after shattering his leg, posting a .282 OBP, and playing one game in center over the last 2 years? Cool.

 

Grinder.

[caulfield12]

The jury isnt out at all. No scouts talked about either of those guys like they talk about Poreda, its apples and oranges once again, which seems to be your best technique to make your point.

 

Stop it with Borbon, its not gonna happen and is a terrible trade for us. We could get a ton more value for Jenks and Poreda.

 

 

So you're on the record that Poreda will be a 3 starter or above at the big league level, yes?

 

Because if not, giving up two relievers for a starting CFer and leadoff hitter under your control affordably for six years isn't such a bad move after all.

 

Sure, we could trade for Matt Kemp or Nate McLouth, but that would cost us even more.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Grinder.

 

2006

In less than 500 at-bats (448 to be exact), Rivera hit 23 homers and had 85 RBI's with an .887 OPS and a .362 OBP.

 

That really screams "grinder" to me. Have you ever seen Rivera play a game, seriously?

 

The year (2004) before Jermaine Dye came on board with the Sox.

532 at-bats, 23 homers (the same number that Rivera hit in 84 less AB's), 80 RBI's, .793 OPS and a .329 OBP.

 

Who's the grinder, now? Only the guy who has led the majors in homers for RFers cumulatively for the last four seasons.

 

Almost the same exact age as JD came over here, if we were to obtain Rivera.

 

It's not always stats, it's identifying the players who have the most upside when their value is at its lowest.

[Steve9347]

2006

In less than 500 at-bats (448 to be exact), Rivera hit 23 homers and had 85 RBI's with an .887 OPS and a .362 OBP.

 

That really screams "grinder" to me. Have you ever seen Rivera play a game, seriously?

 

The year (2004) before Jermaine Dye came on board with the Sox.

532 at-bats, 23 homers (the same number that Rivera hit in 84 less AB's), 80 RBI's, .793 OPS and a .329 OBP.

 

Who's the grinder, now? Only the guy who has led the majors in homers for RFers cumulatively for the last four seasons.

 

Almost the same exact age as JD came over here, if we were to obtain Rivera.

 

It's not always stats, it's identifying the players who have the most upside when their value is at its lowest.

But you're quoting Rivera's BEST year and comparing it to one of Dye's worst.

 

Dye was exceptionally better than that in 1999, 2000, and 2001 before injuries really started to rock his boat. He had a track-record of All-Star caliber play, not just one year.

[caulfield12]

But you're quoting Rivera's BEST year and comparing it to one of Dye's worst.

 

Dye was exceptionally better than that in 1999, 2000, and 2001 before injuries really started to rock his boat. He had a track-record of All-Star caliber play, not just one year.

 

But that's really his last full, healthy season...but you're right, I did also "cherry pick" that because people who don't know much about him are comparing him to Darin Erstad, Rob Mackowiak, Joe McEwing, Aaron Miles, David Eckstein, etc.

 

That's just ridiculous. He's a much more gifted player than that label signifies.

 

But the point remains, both were around 30, had major injury concerns hanging over them and signed for less than many other available players on the market (Dunn, Ibanez, Griffey maybe, Burrell, Abreu).

Edited December 3, 2008 by caulfield12

[Steve9347]

But the point remains, both were around 30, had major injury concerns hanging over them and signed for less than many other available players on the market (Dunn, Ibanez, Griffey maybe, Burrell, Abreu).

And one had a much better track record and was someone I'd feel comfortable as a bounce-back option, the other I'd be willing to invite to extend a non-roster invite to...

[Cerbaho-WG]

2006

In less than 500 at-bats (448 to be exact), Rivera hit 23 homers and had 85 RBI's with an .887 OPS and a .362 OBP.

 

That really screams "grinder" to me. Have you ever seen Rivera play a game, seriously?

 

The year (2004) before Jermaine Dye came on board with the Sox.

532 at-bats, 23 homers (the same number that Rivera hit in 84 less AB's), 80 RBI's, .793 OPS and a .329 OBP.

 

Who's the grinder, now? Only the guy who has led the majors in homers for RFers cumulatively for the last four seasons.

 

Almost the same exact age as JD came over here, if we were to obtain Rivera.

 

It's not always stats, it's identifying the players who have the most upside when their value is at its lowest.

 

You need to get your head of your ass and read into some sarcasm. I've seen Rivera play and I know his 2006 stats were great, but we're talking about a guy who has had a shattered leg in CF.

[R.J.]

NO, NO, NO!!!

 

Who said anything about CF? Nobody that I can see.

 

Yep. I wouldn't have a problem with the Sox picking up Rivera now. He could start in CF

 

I'm somehow not sold on the Rivera/Borbon master plan. Call me crazy.

 

[caulfield12]

You need to get your head of your ass and read into some sarcasm. I've seen Rivera play and I know his 2006 stats were great, but we're talking about a guy who has had a shattered leg in CF.

 

 

Ummmm....sure. I know that how, exactly? By your saying he's a grinder, hahaha! does that mean you're saying he's not?

 

But, in the end, what's the point exactly, and what does that add to the discussion?

 

Maybe we need color codes like the other side for our "sarcastic" comments so we can differentiate those we know who are trying to be funny/sarcastic and those are unintentionally funny by making inane comments.

[Balta1701]

But that's really his last full, healthy season...but you're right, I did also "cherry pick" that because people who don't know much about him are comparing him to Darin Erstad, Rob Mackowiak, Joe McEwing, Aaron Miles, David Eckstein, etc.

 

That's just ridiculous. He's a much more gifted player than that label signifies.

 

But the point remains, both were around 30, had major injury concerns hanging over them and signed for less than many other available players on the market (Dunn, Ibanez, Griffey maybe, Burrell, Abreu).

The problem with saying that's his last healthy season is...that's his last healthy season. At some point, it's worth while to consider how big of an injury risk he is.

[SoxFan1]

Ummmm....sure. I know that how, exactly? By your saying he's a grinder, hahaha! does that mean you're saying he's not?

 

But, in the end, what's the point exactly, and what does that add to the discussion?

 

Maybe we need color codes like the other side for our "sarcastic" comments so we can differentiate those we know who are trying to be funny/sarcastic and those are unintentionally funny by making inane comments.

Seriously...let it go.

[iamshack]

Guys, the debate is appreciated, and it's fine to voice your opinions, but please keep it civil. There is no need to get rude or personal about it.

 

Caufield is just throwing some ideas out there. If you don't agree with them, fine, but don't crucify the guy for throwing something out there.

 

When this sort of thing happens, others don't volunteer their ideas for fear of being ridiculed. And that doesn't help anyone.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

After the Swisher trade , I said this , which I still think is valid. We now have more middle infield prospects for Baltimore to choose from. Still thinking Kenny makes a big push for Brian Roberts.

 

"This was the obvious 1st move of the off season. Does it make Vazquez the next to go ? Maybe but I still don't think its enough to fill a vacancy created by moving Javy. I think it lessens the chances of a Dye trade though there could always be an offer that KW can't refuse.

 

I'm excited because the KW plan has started unfolding. Look for much more to happen in the next 6-8 weeks. KW also has more prospects to trade now. If you're looking for a big name, think Brian Roberts or Carlos Beltran ....."

 

Stay tuned.

Edited December 3, 2008 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[DBAHO]

So you're on the record that Poreda will be a 3 starter or above at the big league level, yes?

 

Because if not, giving up two relievers for a starting CFer and leadoff hitter under your control affordably for six years isn't such a bad move after all.

 

Sure, we could trade for Matt Kemp or Nate McLouth, but that would cost us even more.

I just don't think you can automatically assume that Borbon would come in and be a starting CF'er for us in 2009 from the get-go.

 

Bobby Jenks alone could probably net you 2 top 10 prospects at least.

 

Poreda's got #2 starter upside, and we've seen from Danks and Floyd how valuable good young pitching is.

[R.J.]

Brian Roberts would pretty much be perfect if the price was right.

[Wanne]

Why would the Rangers want a LH reliever for someone who can be a starting CFer?

 

I think we're overvaluing Aaron Poreda way too much here, and undervaluing Josh Fields.

 

Probably like a lot of Ranger fans and front office people did with Danks too huh?!?

[RockRaines]

I just don't think you can automatically assume that Borbon would come in and be a starting CF'er for us in 2009 from the get-go.

 

Bobby Jenks alone could probably net you 2 top 10 prospects at least.

 

Poreda's got #2 starter upside, and we've seen from Danks and Floyd how valuable good young pitching is.

Ding ding ding.

 

[ThunderBolt]

It might be promising, but it won't come close to matching the production of the 05 Sox or even last years Sox rotation, imo. I would not be really comfortable with a raw and unproven Bailey as the 4th starter, especially since I'm expecting some set backs from Danks/Floyd. I think getting a veteran starter is a must at this point if you plan on competing because you can't expect to contend (key word being expect) when you have only one pitcher who has proven to be able to pitch consistently well at the big league level.

Would you feel any more secure with:

Indians: Lee, Carmona, Westbrook, Sowers, Reyes/Jackson, ETC

Tigers Verlander, Miner, Bonderman, Galaragga, Willis/someone?

Royals: Meche, Greinke, Bannister, Hochever, Davies/Duckworth,

Everybody has as many question marks as we do. Every team has to rely on unproven talent at some point. Our biggest competition is the Twins, and they seem to be doing just fine with their collection of young arms. We can compete in this division with a young rotation. Hell, if Bailey and Poreda pan out We have the potential to dominate it. And if they don’t… we can always sign someone, we can trade for someone, we can bring up someone, or we can ride it out until Contreras gets that leg back under him. We have options. While I think we'll pursue a veteran starter to slot in this year, I don't find the prospect of having four of the (current) and former top pitching prospects in the game in our rotation particularly alarming.

[scenario]

Just saw one of Cowley's twitter posts from last night. Made me laugh.

 

"Reports are now that Boone Logan is also gone. Like the end of The Godfather, Ken Williams is whacking all that have failed him."

Edited December 3, 2008 by scenario

[YASNY]

Is this deal official yet?

[BigSqwert]

Is this deal official yet?

 

I haven't heard anything yet.

[YASNY]

I haven't heard anything yet.

 

I haven't either. Damn!

[R.J.]

"Reports are now that Boone Logan is also gone. Like the end of The Godfather, Ken Williams is whacking all that have failed him."

 

I hope Jermaine Dye doesn't get the Moe Greene special.

Edited December 3, 2008 by R.J.