Vazquez & Logan Dealt to Braves

[Dick Allen]

Dont you think some of what made Mazzone seem so good is the calibur of pitchers he was able to work with, for the majority of his time in Atlanta he had Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz and those 3 make any pitching coach look good. Not to mention they are pitching in a great pitchers park, I mean honestly nobody really flourished in Baltimore under him. Also, sometimes a guy just needs a different way of learning things and it clicks, regardless if Coop is a better pitching coach or not.

When he was with Atlanta someone did a study believing he couldn't be as good as people thought he was and they looked at guys Mazzone coached at least one year. They compared the pitchers' ERAs with him as a coach and without him as a coach. There was a difference of 1.50 runs a game in his favor. Not everyone is going to flourish under even the finest of coaches. Cooper has had his share of failures as well.

Cabrera can't throw a strike to save his life. How did that work out when Coop worked with Sisco and MacDougal?

[Steve9347]

I miss the Arrested Development chicken scene....

It'll be back after I get tired of this flavor of the week, don't you worry.

 

CAW ca CAW!

[witesoxfan]

When he was with Atlanta someone did a study believing he couldn't be as good as people thought he was and they looked at guys Mazzone coached at least one year. They compared the pitchers' ERAs with him as a coach and without him as a coach. There was a difference of 1.50 runs a game in his favor. Not everyone is going to flourish under even the finest of coaches. Cooper has had his share of failures as well.

Cabrera can't throw a strike to save his life. How did that work out when Coop worked with Sisco and MacDougal?

 

I think Cabrera is worth a shot even if it's just because he's free (in the sense that he won't cost any players). I had no problem with the Sisco move and I believe I applauded it at the time and the MacDougal deal wasn't terrible at the time but has since become an absolute disaster of a deal.

 

If Cabrera blows, he blows and he's in the pen or off the team come midseason.

[Dick Allen]

Before people start sticking a fork in Lillibridge because of his one bad season...

 

Take a look at the comparison of his 2007 and 2008 AAA stats.

 

GM A-B R Hits 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS SB CS SB%

87 321 47 92 14 2 10 41 20 59 .287 .331 .436 .767 28 5 85%

90 355 46 78 18 7 04 39 33 90 .220 .294 .344 .638 23 7 77%

 

Surprising similar seasons... Roughly the same number of games, at bats, etc...

 

What's the biggest difference that drives most of the numbers?

 

14 less hits in 2008...

And 6 less homeruns....

 

Those two figures account for almost all the difference in his average, OBP, and SLG.

 

That's the problem with using averages from small samples.

 

It's pretty easy to envision a guy who is getting shuttled between AAA and the majors pressing and having his timing thrown off to result in getting 14 less hits over 355 at-bats... isn't it?

 

So, I'm inclined to think 2008 may just turn out to be an off-year for him. In 2007, he was considered a better prospect than Escobar. Could turn out to be a classic KW value pickup.

14 less hits and 6 less homers in 34 more AB. So blow that .220 off in AAA, once in the majors to stay playing against even better players, he will do much better? Doesn't seem logical to me. He also struck out 31 more times. There's nothing there to show he's ready to contribute on the major league level yet.

[DBAHO]

I for one think we had an interest in Cabrera but with his constant underachieving over the past couple of seasons, we're more likely to look elsewhere or give some of our young talent (e.g Marquez) a shot first.

 

I do think we need 1 more SP though, as I would like for Richard to be a swingman who can throw 3IP a game (a role in which he was very effective in during the playoffs).

[southsider2k5]

I think Cabrera is worth a shot even if it's just because he's free (in the sense that he won't cost any players). I had no problem with the Sisco move and I believe I applauded it at the time and the MacDougal deal wasn't terrible at the time but has since become an absolute disaster of a deal.

 

If Cabrera blows, he blows and he's in the pen or off the team come midseason.

 

I really believe the worst thing for Sisco's career was getting picked in the Rule 5 draft by KC. If he had been allowed to develop and get his innings underneath him, I think we would be looking at a very good starting pitcher. As it was, he never got to really got to learn his arm slot, and repeatability, because he was stuck working erratically out of the pen, and even more so as his numbers fell apart. Then the injury came along, and we are looking at a guy who might be done now.

[Dick Allen]

I think Cabrera is worth a shot even if it's just because he's free (in the sense that he won't cost any players). I had no problem with the Sisco move and I believe I applauded it at the time and the MacDougal deal wasn't terrible at the time but has since become an absolute disaster of a deal.

 

If Cabrera blows, he blows and he's in the pen or off the team come midseason.

I had no problem with the Sisco move either, but giving Cabrera a couple of million is just replicating what you are doing with MacDougal. If he was willing to take a non guarantee, I'd have no problem, but someone is going to pay him something and since KW claims he only has $.75 and things cost $1.00, I hope he spends his money more wisely.

[witesoxfan]

The Sox could very well be the team to give Cabrera the couple million, but the big difference, to me, between MacDougal and Cabrera is that, at this point in time, there's no long term commitment to Cabrera as there was with MacDougal.

 

I'd also much rather give Cabrera a shot in the rotation rather than Marquez. If Marquez is anything like Floyd or Danks at all, another half season or so in AAA should be a necessity as is.

[DBAHO]

FWIW, what is the list of FA SP's that won't cost draft picks to sign this off-season (Kalapse I know you're usually pretty good with this type of stuff)?

[Dick Allen]

I think if enough payroll is cleared, KW wants Derek Lowe. Wasn't he supposedly a target when they were dangling OC this past summer?

[DBAHO]

I think if enough payroll is cleared, KW wants Derek Lowe. Wasn't he supposedly a target when they were dangling OC this past summer?

Lowe would be the 1 pitcher who would fit perfectly at the Cell FWIW.

 

He's likely to get above 4/60 from either the Red Sox, Mets or Yankees though.

[witesoxfan]

I think if enough payroll is cleared, KW wants Derek Lowe. Wasn't he supposedly a target when they were dangling OC this past summer?

 

That he was. It would also be pretty crazy seeing as how Lowe is a Boras client too.

[Dick Allen]

The Sox could very well be the team to give Cabrera the couple million, but the big difference, to me, between MacDougal and Cabrera is that, at this point in time, there's no long term commitment to Cabrera as there was with MacDougal.

 

I'd also much rather give Cabrera a shot in the rotation rather than Marquez. If Marquez is anything like Floyd or Danks at all, another half season or so in AAA should be a necessity as is.

He gave up 199 hits in 180 innings. He walked 90 guys, actually lowering his career walk rate. He hit 18 guys. In 180 innings, 108 get on base without having to swing a bat, let alone a guy who supposedly is so gifted his hard to hit gives up 199 hits in 180 innings. There's more than just a minor tweak or two that needs to be done to turn it around. This is a major reclimation project that has an excellent chance to fail. Throwing a couple of million at it doesn't make any sense.

[southsider2k5]

He gave up 199 hits in 180 innings. He walked 90 guys, actually lowering his career walk rate. He hit 18 guys. In 180 innings, 108 get on base without having to swing a bat, let alone a guy who supposedly is so gifted his hard to hit gives up 199 hits in 180 innings. There's more than just a minor tweak or two that needs to be done to turn it around. This is a major reclimation project that has an excellent chance to fail. Throwing a couple of million at it doesn't make any sense.

 

A couple of million dollars for Cabrera wouldn't prevent the Sox from doing anything else they would have done over this winter.

[Dick Allen]

A couple of million dollars for Cabrera wouldn't prevent the Sox from doing anything else they would have done over this winter.

Its a waste of a couple of million. Its pissing it away on a longshot. Spend it on the Dominican Academy or something like that. Lightning can be caught in a bottle, but not all the time.

[scenario]

14 less hits and 6 less homers in 34 more AB. So blow that .220 off in AAA, once in the majors to stay playing against even better players, he will do much better? Doesn't seem logical to me. He also struck out 31 more times. There's nothing there to show he's ready to contribute on the major league level yet.

 

I'm not saying he's ready to walk in and start in spring training.

 

I think it's very likely he'll start in Charlotte next year.

 

But I see some people saying he's a no-talent bust with a Pablo Ozuna ceiling because of this year... and I just think that's sort of ridiculous.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

That he was. It would also be pretty crazy seeing as how Lowe is a Boras client too.

Eventually, the White Sox are going to have to sign a Boras client. We will see what he signs for. The initial report I think said he wanted $17 million a year or something like that, then I read a week or 2 later that he hadn't discussed money with any team. Today I read he has an offer from the Phillies and another team that isn't Boston or the Yankees. Some people like to think every prospect KW acquires will be a star, ignoring the obvious,.I think every time a mystery team is mentioned for a big name, its the White Sox, ignoring the obvious.

[Balta1701]

I looked back a day or so and didn't see this posted anywhere, Keith Law's take, with some nuggets about the 2 guys we haven't heard much about yet.

The package going back to the White Sox relies heavily on one prospect, breakout slugger Tyler Flowers, to make it a solid return. Brent Lillibridge is a nice utility player who can handle playing shortstop, second, or center field but who is little more than a slap-hitter without good secondary skills, limiting his upside to a bench role. Third baseman Jon Gilmore is a moderate-tools prospect with very limited feel, below-average speed, and a limited power ceiling; he reminds me of Ryan Sweeney, another player from Iowa who was hyped as an amateur beyond what his actual tools merited.

 

The wild card for Chicago is left-hander Santos Rodriguez, a Gulf Coast League repeater with an outstanding arm. He's a long, lanky kid whose fastball sits 95-96 mph, and he shows some feel for a breaking ball. The delivery isn't pretty and his command is still well below average, so he probably projects as a reliever. But his upside, even in the pen, is substantial, although his probability of reaching it right now given his inexperience and delivery is not that high.

 

Flowers, on the other hand, is going to produce offensively at the big-league level, possibly as soon as 2010. It's not quite the way you'd draw it up -- he bars his front arm slightly with his hands all the way back, and takes an all-out swing -- but he has a very good eye and plus raw power, particularly to left and left-center. (His 17 home runs may not look impressive, but Myrtle Beach -- High Class A -- is a horrible place to hit.) He may not hit for a high average -- I'd like to see him prove he can catch up to better fastballs, as his bat speed isn't great on top of where he starts his hands -- but he'll post a high OBP and should be a 25-plus home run guy when he's established in the majors, perhaps more in a homer-friendly park like Chicago's. Flowers' drawback is behind the plate, where he's slow and blocky and has a fringe-average arm; he'll never be a defensive asset, but the White Sox have lived with A.J. Pierzynski back there for years and won a World Series with him, so they don't seem likely to overvalue defense at catcher. If Flowers reaches or comes near his ceiling, he alone is a good return on two years of Vazquez at a slightly below-market $11 million per year. But if Flowers can't catch or has too much trouble making contact at higher levels, the rest of the package isn't likely to make up for it.

[ThunderBolt]

Projectable frame? Violent delivery? Hard fastball? Developing breaking pitch? Rodriquez sounds vagueley Marmolesque, which would be outstanding. Then again we do hear these buzzwords tossed around often.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Thunderbolt

[Steve9347]

Third baseman Jon Gilmore is a moderate-tools prospect with very limited feel, below-average speed, and a limited power ceiling; he reminds me of Ryan Sweeney, another player from Iowa who was hyped as an amateur beyond what his actual tools merited.

[SoxFan562004]

I'm still waiting for a few more moves from KW before I judge his offseason, it's hard to react to KWs individual moves. I'm a little worried about the 4th and 5th starters at this point, but we'll see.

 

I've posted it before, but Javy, for a high payroll team like the White Sox, was a good luxury as a 4th or 5th starter. He's going to give you 200 innings every year which is nice. But we'll see, I have a gut feeling the Sox will make an suprise FA signing

[daa84]

I looked back a day or so and didn't see this posted anywhere, Keith Law's take, with some nuggets about the 2 guys we haven't heard much about yet.

in addition Law said in todays chat that he sees Flowers as the best prospect in our System

[scenario]

One of my favorite pieces of Keith Law "wisdom"... from an interview last spring...

 

Interviewer: "Gavin Floyd - Will he win 10-15 games for the White Sox this season (2008)?"

 

Law: "No. Saw him this spring - the plus-plus curveball he had as an amateur appears to be gone. Fastball is very true, and he’s in the league’s most HR-friendly ballpark. Get a good chiropractor, Gavin."

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In his article today....

 

"In the six-player trade, Atlanta also gets Boone Logan, a low-slot lefty specialist who almost shotputs the ball to the plate. He tops out at 91 mph and his slider doesn't have great tilt, so he's limited to platoon duty and is going to be prone to the longball."

 

Since when did Boone "top out at 91"? Sometimes I think Law writes opinions without even watching guys play.

Edited December 4, 2008 by scenario

[Hatchetman]

these guys (keith laws of the world) are phony snake oil salesman....like the expert analysts you see on CNBC. no way can one man be an expert on 1200 or so players and prospects.

[ThunderBolt]

these guys (keith laws of the world) are phony snake oil salesman....like the expert analysts you see on CNBC. no way can one man be an expert on 1200 or so players and prospects.

Law is a very bitter man who takes out his resentment of his old boss (J.P. Riccardi) on every GM, and every farm system in baseball.