Pre Trade Vazquez Discussion

[juddling]

I'm a big Javy supporter too. The guy can be lights out and on a consistent basis. He always seems to have that 2 run or 3 run inning that kills him.

 

 

make up your mind....either he's lights out or he always gives up 2 or 3 that kills him??? Personally...I think Javy is anything BUT consistent. You never know which Javy is gonna show up. The 8 IP 2R 10 K Javy or the 4 IP 6R 3 K Javy. Like I said earlier...when the pressure is on...he's terrible

[BearSox]

Very interesting thread here.

 

http://www.talkingchop.com/2008/11/24/6693...azquez#comments

 

Again, I would love Kelly Johnson starting at 2nd for the Sox.

I don't see anything special in Kelly Johnson. I think Chris Getz can be just as good, if not better.

[beck72]

I don't see anything special in Kelly Johnson. I think Chris Getz can be just as good, if not better.

Johnson would be a decent pickup. Yet it would create a logjam at 2b, with Beckham not having a spot in a year or two. Getz could be decent stopgap until Beckham's ready, and then be moved.

[supernuke]

I love how Javy gets crapped on for not being a big game pitcher and he needs to be gone, but almost no one ever gets on Buehrle's case when he always seems to take a month or 2 off each season.

Edited November 28, 2008 by supernuke

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I love how Javy gets crapped on for not being a big game pitcher and he needs to be gone, but almost no one ever gets on Buehrle's case when he always seems to take a month or 2 off each season.

When Mark gets hit it's because he's missing his spots. Javy is a good pitcher, but if he had Buehrle's brain he'd be a future Hall of Famer. It's a lot easier to crap on the headcase than the overachiever.

[greg775]

I love how Javy gets crapped on for not being a big game pitcher and he needs to be gone, but almost no one ever gets on Buehrle's case when he always seems to take a month or 2 off each season.

 

Mark isn't free of criticism on here. It's just time to try something new. Get rid of Javy.

[juddling]

I love how Javy gets crapped on for not being a big game pitcher and he needs to be gone, but almost no one ever gets on Buehrle's case when he always seems to take a month or 2 off each season.

 

 

I think the frustration with Javy stems from the fact that he has these flashes where he's so unhittable it's scary but when he's bad he's REAL bad. With Javy you get a large swing from one extreme to the other. MB doesn't have that. When he pitches good, he's good when he's bad he's not so good.

 

I realize that all pitchers are going to have great outings and terrible outings but for the most part you know what you're going to get with MB..Javy not so much.

 

**MB might also get a pass because he's from our farm system and the fact that he's been in the league 2 less years than Javy and has a much better record 122-87 to 127-129.

Edited November 29, 2008 by juddling

[caulfield12]

Not to mention Buehrle is....

 

1) Much better with the press, and more likely to take responsibility for poor starts, show anger and emotion...not talk about his "comfy life" or "doing better next time"

 

2) World Series/playoff performances

 

3) Decade in the White Sox organization (last truly homegrown pitcher to make it from Draft Day to All-Star level success)

 

4) His leadership

 

5) His colorful personality, sense of humor and "tarp sliding"

[beck72]

When Ozzie "called out" Javy about not being a big game pitcher [i forget which game it was late in the year], and Javy responded by being too cautious, and trying to be too fine with his pitches instead of attacking hitters, he probably wrote his ticket out of here. His starts after that were all the same--he wasn't being aggressive. That's been Javy's MO all his career. The sox gave him every opportunity to turn it around. But if it's not in his makeup by now, it probably isn't going to happen.

 

When a guy has the pure "stuff Vazquez has, and can't step up when his team needs him for a big game, and he has an ERA in the mid 4's, it's time to move on. The sox have [or should have] consistent guys in Buehrle, Danks, and Floyd who can give the team 6 innings and give the team a chance to win even when they are struggling. Javy can do that for the most part, especially vs. weaker teams. But he's been MIA in games when it's mattered. The sox should expect more from a guy with Javy's arm and salary, and be able to come up big like Danks did vs the Twins in the 1-game playoff.

 

That said, Javy has very good value for teams out there needing someone to give a staff innings and a decent ERA.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

When Ozzie "called out" Javy about not being a big game pitcher [i forget which game it was late in the year], and Javy responded by being too cautious, and trying to be too fine with his pitches instead of attacking hitters, he probably wrote his ticket out of here. His starts after that were all the same--he wasn't being aggressive. That's been Javy's MO all his career. The sox gave him every opportunity to turn it around. But if it's not in his makeup by now, it probably isn't going to happen.

 

When a guy has the pure "stuff Vazquez has, and can't step up when his team needs him for a big game, and he has an ERA in the mid 4's, it's time to move on. The sox have [or should have] consistent guys in Buehrle, Danks, and Floyd who can give the team 6 innings and give the team a chance to win even when they are struggling. Javy can do that for the most part, especially vs. weaker teams. But he's been MIA in games when it's mattered. The sox should expect more from a guy with Javy's arm and salary, and be able to come up big like Danks did vs the Twins in the 1-game playoff.

 

That said, Javy has very good value for teams out there needing someone to give a staff innings and a decent ERA.

After 2007 I never thought I'd ever say Gavin Floyd is more of a big game pitcher than Javy, but I guess that's how it's going to turn out. Gavin flashed his ballsack all over the place last year and really showed some emotion, plus he went out there with nothing a few times and still found a way to come out with the W or else keep the team in the game. He didn't get it done against Tampa, but it was a long year and he couldn't find his breaker. And we all know about the enormous girth of Danks' and Buehrle's respective nutsacs. So yeah, see ya later Javy.

[beck72]

After 2007 I never thought I'd ever say Gavin Floyd is more of a big game pitcher than Javy, but I guess that's how it's going to turn out. Gavin flashed his ballsack all over the place last year and really showed some emotion, plus he went out there with nothing a few times and still found a way to come out with the W or else keep the team in the game. He didn't get it done against Tampa, but it was a long year and he couldn't find his breaker. And we all know about the enormous girth of Danks' and Buehrle's respective nutsacs. So yeah, see ya later Javy.

Interesting choice of words. But appropriate. I guess that's what the sox are looking for-starting pitchers who can flash ballsack or have the potential to flash ballsack. Javy's not that kind of guy.

[GreatScott82]

Interesting choice of words. But appropriate. I guess that's what the sox are looking for-starting pitchers who can flash ballsack or have the potential to flash ballsack. Javy's not that kind of guy.

Javy usually bounces back strong after dissapointing seasons. I think he will excell on a team like Atlanta where the media isn't as intense and the expectations aren't as high. Bring back Jurjens and you have a deal! Just the idea of having Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, Jurjens and possibly even Poreda makes me smile.

[beck72]

Javy usually bounces back strong after dissapointing seasons. I think he will excell on a team like Atlanta where the media isn't as intense and the expectations aren't as high. Bring back Jurjens and you have a deal! Just the idea of having Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, Jurjens and possibly even Poreda makes me smile.

ATL would more likely give up a AA SP or someone like Jo Jo Reyes or James Parr. Jurjens probably isn't going anywhere.

[GreatScott82]

ATL would more likely give up a AA SP or someone like Jo Jo Reyes or James Parr. Jurjens probably isn't going anywhere.

True. However, I can see a mega deal of Javy, Dye to Atlanta for Jurrjens and Prado or something like that.

[Jimmywins1]

The Braves aren't trading Jurrjens, he's a stud, I'm pretty sure he was off-limits in the Peavy discussions. If anything, for Dye and Vazquez, I think our return would be something like: Jo-Jo Reyes, Charlie Morton, Gregor Blanco/Brandon Jones & mayber Tyler Flowers(armstrong is nice, but Flowers is a real prospect that could take over after Pierzynski's constract is done).

Edited November 29, 2008 by Jimmywins1

[ScottyDo]

When Ozzie "called out" Javy about not being a big game pitcher [i forget which game it was late in the year], and Javy responded by being too cautious, and trying to be too fine with his pitches instead of attacking hitters, he probably wrote his ticket out of here. His starts after that were all the same--he wasn't being aggressive. That's been Javy's MO all his career. The sox gave him every opportunity to turn it around. But if it's not in his makeup by now, it probably isn't going to happen.

 

When a guy has the pure "stuff Vazquez has, and can't step up when his team needs him for a big game, and he has an ERA in the mid 4's, it's time to move on. The sox have [or should have] consistent guys in Buehrle, Danks, and Floyd who can give the team 6 innings and give the team a chance to win even when they are struggling. Javy can do that for the most part, especially vs. weaker teams. But he's been MIA in games when it's mattered. The sox should expect more from a guy with Javy's arm and salary, and be able to come up big like Danks did vs the Twins in the 1-game playoff.

 

That said, Javy has very good value for teams out there needing someone to give a staff innings and a decent ERA.

 

I guess I don't understand why everyone assumes the White Sox DON'T need that...

 

Like, do we have a guy coming up that can replace Vazquez's ERA and innings next year that I don't know about? Or is there some big FA deal in the works that would totally be out of KW's character?

 

I'm not a big Vazquez fan, he's done a lot to hinder himself while here and definitely hasn't lived up to his potential (like everywhere), but if we trade him, whoever replaces him has to be of his value or better...

Edited November 29, 2008 by ScottyDo

[beck72]

I guess I don't understand why everyone assumes the White Sox DON'T need that...

 

Like, do we have a guy coming up that can replace Vazquez's ERA and innings next year that I don't know about? Or is there some big FA deal in the works that would totally be out of KW's character?

 

I'm not a big Vazquez fan, he's done a lot to hinder himself while here and definitely hasn't lived up to his potential (like everywhere), but if we trade him, whoever replaces him has to be of his value or better...

Which is why the asking price for Dye is a young starting pitcher and a position prospect. I'm sure if the sox trade Vazquez part of the return would be for a young starter who could vie for the 4th or 5th spot.

 

I've talked about the sox trying to acquire Duchscherer from the A's. With his injury history, he'd likely be cheap to acquire. Yet he could be a #2 or #3 SP.

[caulfield12]

But why would you trade the relative certainty of Dye or Vazquez for someone who might never be the same again? I could see trading Jenks for Duchscherer (as part of a package)...I also think BB is too smart to give away Justin at such a point. It would be like the White Sox trying to trade Crede after the 2007 season. They simply have to wait and see if he can re-establish his value. The risk of getting nothing for him is less than the risk that he returns to form and they miss out on the kind of trade return that could really impact their future performance positively.

[Fotop]

Sign me up for anything that involves Yunel Escobar. If we're concerned about a ramirez/escobar dp combo blocking beckham...they can always move alexei to cf when the moment arrives.

 

I think Escobar is a hell of a ballplayer though and the type of guy we need to target if we're actually going to move dye.

[caulfield12]

Sign me up for anything that involves Yunel Escobar. If we're concerned about a ramirez/escobar dp combo blocking beckham...they can always move alexei to cf when the moment arrives.

 

I think Escobar is a hell of a ballplayer though and the type of guy we need to target if we're actually going to move dye.

 

 

This is where a Blanco/Escobar trade for Dye and Jenks makes a heck of a lot of sense (hopefully we do this deal without including Fields or Poreda as well). However, if we have to give up Vazquez instead of Jenks, it creates another set of problems, because we'd be in trouble (arguably) replacing two starting pitchers.

 

Then again, KW would have another $15-20 million to play around with...which could be interesting, to say the least.

 

The Padres absolutely believe Cubs GM Jim Hendry can make this a three-way trade to get the Padres the pitching they need in addition to third-base prospect Josh Vitters. The Braves were not going to have to surrender any of their five best prospects, but have hesitated over Class A-level pitching. Peavy is a Cy Young winner, in case anyone's forgotten. from espn.com/peter gammons

 

one would believe this makes a deal attractive to KW, unless he gets Blanco at a minimum and a AA/AAA prospect, like the young catcher, Flowers I think his his name?

Edited November 30, 2008 by caulfield12

[wilmot825]

I was reading on Si.com in the "Truths and Rumors" that the Braves were interested in trading for Javy. And I remember reading a post of the same thing here, where someone suggested getting Yunel. But why not try to steal away Francoeur from the ATL. They sent him down last year to Triple A and as he said it, he felt "like it was a slap in the face." If Kenny is going to send Dye to the Reds, we can then get a RF with a killer arm and .300 average bat. I know people will think I'm crazy for thinking the Braves will just shell out Francoeur for Javy. But maybe we throw in a prospect or 2 and get one of the best young outfielders in baseball. Is this out of left field, yes. Is this a crazy idea, yes. Could it happen, prolly not. But why not make a try. Swisher wasn't talked about being trading by Oakland last year, but he was dealt to us for a few prospects. Its possible. Keep hope and faith alive for these wacky ideas.

 

Possible Outfield-

LF: Carlos Quentin (Solid arm)

CF: Brian Anderson (Great defense and reads on balls)

RF: Jeff Francoeur (Rifle of an arm)

Edited December 1, 2008 by wilmot825

[ThunderBolt]

Not to mention Buehrle is....

 

1) Much better with the press, and more likely to take responsibility for poor starts, show anger and emotion...not talk about his "comfy life" or "doing better next time"

 

2) World Series/playoff performances

 

3) Decade in the White Sox organization (last truly homegrown pitcher to make it from Draft Day to All-Star level success)

 

4) His leadership

 

5) His colorful personality, sense of humor and "tarp sliding"

6) A Good Pitching coach. John Danks has him to thank for that cutter.

[knightni]

6) A Good Pitching coach. John Danks has him to thank for that cutter.

 

Danks has Buehrle to thank, IIRC.

[joejoesox]

Danks has Buehrle to thank, IIRC.

 

er.. he said buerhle was a good pitching coach

[beck72]

I guess I don't understand why everyone assumes the White Sox DON'T need that...

 

Like, do we have a guy coming up that can replace Vazquez's ERA and innings next year that I don't know about? Or is there some big FA deal in the works that would totally be out of KW's character?

 

I'm not a big Vazquez fan, he's done a lot to hinder himself while here and definitely hasn't lived up to his potential (like everywhere), but if we trade him, whoever replaces him has to be of his value or better...

I think that is what Kenny Williams is looking for--someone who can give the sox near 200 innings with a near 4.50 ERA. Bailey would be a guy who the sox would be counting on to do that. Whether he does or not, that's a different question. But if the sox can get 3 players who can be long term contributors, the sox would likely make a deal in a heartbeat. It seems their patience has run out on whether Javy would ever reach his "full" potential.