Pre Trade Vazquez Discussion

[Jimmywins1]

He's a Sox prospect, there has to be something wrong with him.

[elrockinMT]

Escobar and Hanson would be pretty nice. Throw in Gorkys and Reyes and the Braves can have Javy, Dye, Bobby, and Kenny's own son - literally, he's in our organization.

 

 

Nothing like giving up the farm is there?

[elrockinMT]

Escobar + Morton for Javy and JD?

 

 

Or giving up the tractor, the cow, the pigs,

[Jimmywins1]

Some one we should look into is Gregor Blanco. He plays CF, is 24, and had a .366 OBP in 144 games (430 AB's), and in 6 minor league seasons, he racked up 180+ SB's.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Just as an aside to Brandon Jones, ATL may look at him like the Sox with Josh Fields prior to 2008. Trading a year too late is far worse than trading a year early.

in 2007 in AA and AAA- .295/.367/.490

in 2008 in AAA-.260/.343/.405 [and .252/.295/.370 in the bigs].

 

Jones doesn't show much improvement in 2009 and his stock will drop dramatically, ala Fields.

 

Jones is supposed to hit for a solid avg. and get on base, even if he doesn't hit for power. That would be a good fit going forward, esp as he can hit from the left side

 

Here's a link to Prospects blog that had Jones 3rd prior to 2008 season, behind both Heyward and Schafer. I like the defense comment-and the scrappy approach to hitting. Doesn't that sound like Kenny's type of guy

 

http://diamondcutter.wordpress.com/2008/01...atlanta-braves/

I doubt Fields stock has dropped that much. He was hurt last year. He still has 40HR power and a very strong arm. Those guys don't grow on trees.

 

Dye loves it here. If he goes elsewhere and doesn't like the fit he may decline his 2010 mutual option, but if we don't trade him we've got him in the middle of our order for two years, probably the last as DH, and then we get Type A comp after that.

 

No offense, but I really hate the idea of giving up Jermaine Dye for crap like Brandon Jones and company. If you trade Jermaine, make sure you get at least one guy who has a shot at becoming a long-term solution somewhere. Get a corner OF with power potential, or a legit CF and not some tweener, or a SP prospect who is expected to become a #3 or better. Brandon Jones? I'd rather take a shot at bringing back Griffey to take over for JD for a year or two, or sign Juan Rivera or something. The guy is a career .283 hitter in the minor leagues and he struck out over 100 times per season in '07 and '08. For a corner OF with no power, yuck. Ryan Sweeney was a much better player and we felt he didn't fit, so I highly doubt Jones does anything for the Sox.

[beck72]

I doubt Fields stock has dropped that much. He was hurt last year. He still has 40HR power and a very strong arm. Those guys don't grow on trees.

 

Dye loves it here. If he goes elsewhere and doesn't like the fit he may decline his 2010 mutual option, but if we don't trade him we've got him in the middle of our order for two years, probably the last as DH, and then we get Type A comp after that.

 

No offense, but I really hate the idea of giving up Jermaine Dye for crap like Brandon Jones and company. If you trade Jermaine, make sure you get at least one guy who has a shot at becoming a long-term solution somewhere. Get a corner OF with power potential, or a legit CF and not some tweener, or a SP prospect who is expected to become a #3 or better. Brandon Jones? I'd rather take a shot at bringing back Griffey to take over for JD for a year or two, or sign Juan Rivera or something. The guy is a career .283 hitter in the minor leagues and he struck out over 100 times per season in '07 and '08. For a corner OF with no power, yuck. Ryan Sweeney was a much better player and we felt he didn't fit, so I highly doubt Jones does anything for the Sox.

I'm sorry, but nowhere is Brandon Jones looked like as "crap". He's a guy who should be able to hit for avg. play solid defense, and get on base. Whether that's in LF or RF, who cares. In the NL that makes a difference having a corner OFer being able to hit or power without the DH. But not so much for the sox.

 

And say no to Jones who has far greater upside over a Griffey or Rivera? Did you mean to put that in green?

 

The sox need to get younger. And need to diversify their lineup by adding guys who can hit for avg., get on base, move around the bases and play defense. Jones does all those things.

[Jimmywins1]

Gregor Blanco > Jones.

 

[beck72]

Some one we should look into is Gregor Blanco. He plays CF, is 24, and had a .366 OBP in 144 games (430 AB's), and in 6 minor league seasons, he racked up 180+ SB's.

I listed Blanco as well a few posts back. Yet Jones, IMO is better than Blanco. Both are the same age. Yet Jones has a better line in the minors .283/.360/.456 in 1,000 less ab's compared to Blanco. Blanco has decent numbers .273/.372/.377. And his 182 sb's are nice. But not his 86 CS for a 68% avg.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm sorry, but nowhere is Brandon Jones looked like as "crap". He's a guy who should be able to hit for avg. play solid defense, and get on base. Whether that's in LF or RF, who cares. In the NL that makes a difference having a corner OFer being able to hit or power without the DH. But not so much for the sox.

 

And say no to Jones who has far greater upside over a Griffey or Rivera? Did you mean to put that in green?

 

The sox need to get younger. And need to diversify their lineup by adding guys who can hit for avg., get on base, move around the bases and play defense. Jones does all those things.

What makes you think he can hit for a solid average? Because he hit .283 in the minors? Those walk numbers don't exactly inspire confidence should he be unable to hit Major League pitching. League average for RF last year was .272/.340/.426 and Jones' career minor league line is .283/.360/.456. So basically, you're hoping a guy can maintain his minor league numbers against much tougher competition (completely unrealistic) just to stay above league average. No thanks. Trading Dye is trading one of the most productive outfielders in baseball since he came to Chicago. If you trade for a player with league-average upside then you're just wasting your own time. I'd rather get a guy who I won't be looking to move the next season even if he does do somewhat well. Otherwise, keep Dye, keep the 30+ HR and .500+ SLG, and when it comes time to collect a first round draft pick for him, select a guy with 3X the ceiling of Brandon Jones.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I listed Blanco as well a few posts back. Yet Jones, IMO is better than Blanco. Both are the same age. Yet Jones has a better line in the minors .283/.360/.456 in 1,000 less ab's compared to Blanco. Blanco has decent numbers .273/.372/.377. And his 182 sb's are nice. But not his 86 CS for a 68% avg.

Blanco's tools and ability fit his position better than Jones' tools and ability do. If you can't hit for power in the corners then you had better do something else exceptionally well if you want to start in the Majors. CF is a completely different story.

[Jimmywins1]

I listed Blanco as well a few posts back. Yet Jones, IMO is better than Blanco. Both are the same age. Yet Jones has a better line in the minors .283/.360/.456 in 1,000 less ab's compared to Blanco. Blanco has decent numbers .273/.372/.377. And his 182 sb's are nice. But not his 86 CS for a 68% avg.

 

I think Blanco would be the better fit, as he plays CF and has the OBP you look for in a lead off hitter. The SB's aren't that important, but they definitely suggest that there is speed there, which we could use. I wouldn't care if he only stole 15 bases if he could repeat that .366 OBP leading off, play good defense, and score from 2nd base.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Jimmywins1

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I think Blanco would be the better fit, as he plays CF and has the OBP you look for in a lead off hitter. The SB's aren't that important, but they definitely suggest that there is speed there, which we could use. I wouldn't care if he only stole 15 bases if he could repeat that .366 OBP leading off, play good defense, and score from 2nd base.

Agreed. Stolen bases are great, but our offense was inconsistent last year because we didn't have enough guys who can score on a single from second or go from first to third on a single and then come home on a sac fly/ground-out. Alexei for example was far from leading the league in the SB category but he definitely could get around the bases when it counted.

[beck72]

Blanco's tools and ability fit his position better than Jones' tools and ability do. If you can't hit for power in the corners then you had better do something else exceptionally well if you want to start in the Majors. CF is a completely different story.

Jones has more tools than DeJesus but projects like him-a guy who can hit for avg. and sport a good OBP.

[beck72]

What makes you think he can hit for a solid average? Because he hit .283 in the minors? Those walk numbers don't exactly inspire confidence should he be unable to hit Major League pitching. League average for RF last year was .272/.340/.426 and Jones' career minor league line is .283/.360/.456. So basically, you're hoping a guy can maintain his minor league numbers against much tougher competition (completely unrealistic) just to stay above league average. No thanks. Trading Dye is trading one of the most productive outfielders in baseball since he came to Chicago. If you trade for a player with league-average upside then you're just wasting your own time. I'd rather get a guy who I won't be looking to move the next season even if he does do somewhat well. Otherwise, keep Dye, keep the 30+ HR and .500+ SLG, and when it comes time to collect a first round draft pick for him, select a guy with 3X the ceiling of Brandon Jones.

You seem to be against trading Dye. I'd love for Dye to be kept around to DH. Yet the sox can get a good return for him and get younger and better for the long term. The guys the sox get in return for Dye probably won't outproduce him in 2009. Yet they should be able to help the sox.

 

I threw out some names from ATL based on the media report. You don't like Jones. Fine. He was a top tier prospect heading into 2008. But you do like Blanco, right, who had 1000 more at bats than Jones in the minors, and hit for a career .273/.372/.377 line compared to Jones' .283/.360/.456 line? I'm not fully understanding.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Jones has more tools than DeJesus but projects like him-a guy who can hit for avg. and sport a good OBP.

I still don't know about that. Danny Richar has a lot more tools than David Eckstein does but there's a pretty good chance Richar never starts in the Majors.

 

David DeJesus I fear is going to end up being like the offensive version of Mark Buehrle. By that I mean, normally when you look at soft-tossing lefties with control and a decent change you think, "OK, maybe this guy can make it as a LOOGY/LR/5th starter type." But because of what Buehrle is able to do, people will always say so-and-so could be the next Buehrle, even though Buehrle is the exception and is truly a special player given what he can do with his ability. I think the same will end up holding true for DeJesus, in that guys who look like 4th OF's with decent skill-sets that don't wow anyone will inevitably be compared to DeJesus, even though he's the overachiever type and that is very hard to do.

 

Looking at Brandon Jones' numbers alone, I don't see any way he can be compared with David DeJesus. DeJesus' contact rate was much better coming up through the minors (DD had 122 K's in 909 minor league AB's compared to 128 K's in '07 and 104 K's in '08) and that contact rate is what makes DeJesus such a good player. He can draw walks - so can Jones - but Jones doesn't walk so much that he'll be able to overcome a poor batting average and still post a respectable OBP.

 

And again, Jones' minor league numbers will certainly dip, and dip a lot, in the Majors. Last year he hit .267/.312/.397 in 116 AB with 7 BB to 28 K. Obviously he can improve on it, but given his lack of power, his lack of contact, his lack of ability to draw enough walks to offset his poor batting average, and given the fact that he is not going to play a premium position, it is very unlikely Jones ever does anything as a starter in the Majors. He does not offer the type of power or hitting ability that will make GM's and managers stick with him for 1-2 seasons while the fans are booing his poor production.

 

Every single team has guys like this. Why didn't we just keep David Cook? I mean seriously. Cook is two years older, but he actually strikes out less, he has a lot more power, and he has twice the batting eye of Jones. Seriously, Cook is a better player than Jones is and we didn't even protect him on the roster. I know you like this dude, but if Kenny traded Jermaine Dye for him he'd be the laughing stock of baseball. Ryan Sweeney is and was better than Jones and we traded him, and only a few posters here even cared when we did it. If we offered JD to Oakland, and Oakland wanted him, I'd like to think we could easily get Sweeney back plus another good player.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

You seem to be against trading Dye. I'd love for Dye to be kept around to DH. Yet the sox can get a good return for him and get younger and better for the long term. The guys the sox get in return for Dye probably won't outproduce him in 2009. Yet they should be able to help the sox.

 

I threw out some names from ATL based on the media report. You don't like Jones. Fine. He was a top tier prospect heading into 2008. But you do like Blanco, right, who had 1000 more at bats than Jones in the minors, and hit for a career .273/.372/.377 line compared to Jones' .283/.360/.456 line? I'm not fully understanding.

I want to trade Dye. I just want to trade him for some guys who have the potential to stick somewhere long-term. Ditto with Javy and Jenks. We're trading proven players for unproven commodities. We had better make sure we get guys who we believe will make impacts similar to the players we're dealing them for.

 

I'm not in love with Gregor Blanco or anything but he's a much better player than Jones. Gregor is a CF with speed. He fits into a position, Jones does not. The MLB league average for CF's is a lot easier to hit than it is for corner OF'ers and Gregor brings skills that allow him to fit there. Look at Gregor's numbers since 2005, specifically his K and BB numbers. Jones is not good enough to do that. You made a comparison to DeJesus, offensively Blanco is much closer to DeJesus than Jones is. When Blanco left the minors his K numbers had been in constant decline and over the last few years the gap between his K and BB numbers had closed. Jones doesn't make as much contact, nor does he walk as much. Blanco walked 74 times last year in the Major Leagues. Jones' career high anywhere was 61 across three levels in '07 in what was by far his best year.

 

You just can't compare these guys. They are the same age. Blanco went from a raw prospect to a Major League baseball player. Jones took steps backward and it doesn't appear he ever had Blanco's potential anyway since Blanco can play a premium position.

[beck72]

I still don't know about that. Danny Richar has a lot more tools than David Eckstein does but there's a pretty good chance Richar never starts in the Majors.

 

David DeJesus I fear is going to end up being like the offensive version of Mark Buehrle. By that I mean, normally when you look at soft-tossing lefties with control and a decent change you think, "OK, maybe this guy can make it as a LOOGY/LR/5th starter type." But because of what Buehrle is able to do, people will always say so-and-so could be the next Buehrle, even though Buehrle is the exception and is truly a special player given what he can do with his ability. I think the same will end up holding true for DeJesus, in that guys who look like 4th OF's with decent skill-sets that don't wow anyone will inevitably be compared to DeJesus, even though he's the overachiever type and that is very hard to do.

 

Looking at Brandon Jones' numbers alone, I don't see any way he can be compared with David DeJesus. DeJesus' contact rate was much better coming up through the minors (DD had 122 K's in 909 minor league AB's compared to 128 K's in '07 and 104 K's in '08) and that contact rate is what makes DeJesus such a good player. He can draw walks - so can Jones - but Jones doesn't walk so much that he'll be able to overcome a poor batting average and still post a respectable OBP.

 

And again, Jones' minor league numbers will certainly dip, and dip a lot, in the Majors. Last year he hit .267/.312/.397 in 116 AB with 7 BB to 28 K. Obviously he can improve on it, but given his lack of power, his lack of contact, his lack of ability to draw enough walks to offset his poor batting average, and given the fact that he is not going to play a premium position, it is very unlikely Jones ever does anything as a starter in the Majors. He does not offer the type of power or hitting ability that will make GM's and managers stick with him for 1-2 seasons while the fans are booing his poor production.

 

Every single team has guys like this. Why didn't we just keep David Cook? I mean seriously. Cook is two years older, but he actually strikes out less, he has a lot more power, and he has twice the batting eye of Jones. Seriously, Cook is a better player than Jones is and we didn't even protect him on the roster. I know you like this dude, but if Kenny traded Jermaine Dye for him he'd be the laughing stock of baseball. Ryan Sweeney is and was better than Jones and we traded him, and only a few posters here even cared when we did it. If we offered JD to Oakland, and Oakland wanted him, I'd like to think we could easily get Sweeney back plus another good player.

The asking price for Dye from KW is a young starting pitcher and an OFer. I never said Jones for Dye. IMO, Jones still has upside after one down year.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The asking price for Dye from KW is a young starting pitcher and an OFer. I never said Jones for Dye. IMO, Jones still has upside after one down year.

If Kenny wants players that will be ready in the this year or 2010 then he should ask for some combination of Hanson/JoJo/Rohrbough/Morton and Blanco/Gorkys/Shafer/Heyward. Asking for someone you're not even going to play doesn't make sense. Emil Brown could equal the numbers Jones put up in the Majors this year and a healthy Juan Rivera, Garrett Anderson, Ken Griffey Jr. etc. off the scrap heap could easily exceed even the most generous expectations for Jones.

[beck72]

If Kenny wants players that will be ready in the this year or 2010 then he should ask for some combination of Hanson/JoJo/Rohrbough/Morton and Blanco/Gorkys/Shafer/Heyward. Asking for someone you're not even going to play doesn't make sense. Emil Brown could equal the numbers Jones put up in the Majors this year and a healthy Juan Rivera, Garrett Anderson, Ken Griffey Jr. etc. off the scrap heap could easily exceed even the most generous expectations for Jones.

That's why he's the GM and not you or I

[juddling]

Escobar and Hanson would be pretty nice. Throw in Gorkys and Reyes and the Braves can have Javy, Dye, Bobby, and Kenny's own son - literally, he's in our organization.

 

 

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when Kenny's son gets that call....

 

"Son...you know I love you, right???"

"Yeah Dad..I love you too"

"I just traded your ass...."

 

[Dick Allen]

Very interesting thread here.

 

http://www.talkingchop.com/2008/11/24/6693...azquez#comments

 

Again, I would love Kelly Johnson starting at 2nd for the Sox.

Very interesting. I love how those guys are under the Javy spell. The one post said he's very underrated. His peripherals usually are much better than his ERA. Its amazing how 8 or 9 strikeouts in 5 or 6 innings get a lot of people to ignore the runs allowed.

[juddling]

Very interesting. I love how those guys are under the Javy spell. The one post said he's very underrated. His peripherals usually are much better than his ERA. Its amazing how 8 or 9 strikeouts in 5 or 6 innings get a lot of people to ignore the runs allowed.

 

 

or the fact you can hear his sphincter tighten if he's due to pitch in an important game

[GreatScott82]

No it isn't. I'm not going to get in a Vazquez debate you with, because it's beyond pointless, but pitchers that have started 32+ games nine years in a row aren't that easy to find. Striking out 190+ in 6 of those years makes it more impressive.

 

He has value in this market, and if traded, should bring back something of worth.

And he will bring back something of worth. There are pleanty of NL teams that would love Javy in there rotation. The Braves are craving for 2 top of the line pitchers and they have a good amount of attractive prospects and young talent to offer. The Mets are also craving another SP, the Brewers are going to be in need for a SP after losing Sheets and CC, the Reds seem to be closer to contend.... These teams and more would LOVE to have Javy's services..... Note to those teams: We are in need of a young speedy middle inf & cf who can hit for decent OBP and play solid defense!

[Harry Chappas]

I love how worthless Vazquez is to some on this board although it should not shock me as every pitcher sucks anyway.

 

Vazquez, Dye and Jenks could make just about any NL team a contendor if not a divisional favorite.

 

Say what you want about Vazquez but he is as much a guarantee as anyone to give you 32 starts and 200 innings. The value of that is so underappreciated around here that it is sad.

 

If Hudson and Smoltz could get on the field this year and they somehow got Peavy and Vazquez, the Braves would be tough.

[striker]

I'm a big Javy supporter too. The guy can be lights out and on a consistent basis. He always seems to have that 2 run or 3 run inning that kills him. I do like the idea of trading some of our older players. We have to restock at some point and CLE, MIN, KC have younger teams than us.