Sox and Brewers talking Jenks....

[whitesoxbrian]

Give me Hardy and Parra.

[Balta1701]

BILL HALL SUCKS!

AT this point, he's no longer a better option than what we already have in house.

[Balta1701]

No way we get Gallardo.

 

Parra maybe, but the Brewers won't move a MLB pitcher until they know whats going on with CC/Sheets. It sounds as if Sheets will accept arbitration.

There is no reason to rush to trade Bobby unless we're getting a stellar return. If his strikeout rate went up slightly next year, he could well be worth more in a deal next year despite being at a higher salary, once people would no longer have to worry about his "Declining peripherals".

[newportitis]

BILL HALL SUCKS!

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Brewers are shopping Hart. They'd like to make room for a LH bat in the outfield, possibly Gamel because of his defensive troubles at 3rd. Any pitching that they would be willing to part with the Sox don't want. But Hall is having lasik surgery this off season and may be worth a gamble. If you watched him chase sliders, you'd swear he couldn't see the ball spin. He has first to third speed, a Uribe type arm and the ability to play anywhere on the infield...and better centerfield than several guys we've had out there in recent years. So Hart and Hall?

Hart and Weeks? I'm guessing it would take a little extra to get that pair

[scenario]

I just listened to the KW teleconference again and it seems pretty obvious that Fields is going to get a shot to play 3rd this year.

 

So I suspect people better get used to that idea.

 

In other words, if Bobby or Dye end up getting moved it's probably not going to be for a 3B.

 

Edited December 6, 2008 by scenario

[greg775]

Jenks should not be used to acquire a group of prospects, unless one is elite. Major league starters need to be brought back for Jenks and/or Dye.

 

I would agree. Bobby is pretty damn good. Pitching and defense generally wins titles. I hope we don't ruin both our pitching and defense.

[bighurt4life]

If we deal Jenks it would have to be centered around Hart or Gamel

[RockRaines]

I would agree. Bobby is pretty damn good. Pitching and defense generally wins titles. I hope we don't ruin both our pitching and defense.

I think KW agrees about the pitching. Maybe Gamel+Flowers=A stud SP? Doc?

[sircaffey]

Personally, I love Alcides Escobar. He's a legit leadoff type hitter. He may be a year away from truly being that, but I still want him. I'd rather have him over Hart. The Brewers will have to move Hardy or Escobar. Either one I'd take over Hart. And move Ramirez to CF.

[chunk23]

Personally, I love Alcides Escobar. He's a legit leadoff type hitter. He may be a year away from truly being that, but I still want him. I'd rather have him over Hart. The Brewers will have to move Hardy or Escobar. Either one I'd take over Hart. And move Ramirez to CF.

 

There's no way the Brewers trade one of the top prospects in baseball.

Edited December 6, 2008 by chunk23

[R.J.]

You should all cross Gallardo, Escobar, and Hart off your wish lists. Each has more value than Jenks.

[witesoxfan]

Personally, I think everyone is overvaluing Escobar right now. I don't know how he bats, but it seems to me that he is the next Omar Vizquel at the very best, and that's how Cesar Izturis was valued at one time as well. There's no way in blue hell I'd deal Jenks for Escobar, and I'd honestly have to be convinced to deal Hardy for Jenks, merely because the Sox are losing a huge (no pun intended) portion of the bullpen in doing so.

 

If the Sox deal Jenks to the Brewers, it'd be Weeks and a pitching prospect. Quite honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Weeks and Villanueva.

Edited December 6, 2008 by witesoxfan

[R.J.]

Regardless of our thoughts on Escobar's value or where he'll end up, the Brewers value him as a top tier guy.

 

Weeks/Villanueva sounds eerily close.

[beck72]

Both teams seem to match up well for a trade. The question is would it be for major league players, ala Jenks for Hart, or for prospects? Jenks needs to return a solid major league player who can help in 2009. The brewers need SP so a deal for a young arm to plug into the sox rotation in 2009 doesn't make sense. A deal around Hart maybe. the Brewers have guys like Hall, Hardy and Weeks to plug around the diamond, if Escobar and Gamel are ready.

 

If the sox got Hart, they could trade Dye for a SP like Sonnanstine or Jackson [my preference would be Sonnanstine-he's got less of a ceiling but more of a solid SP who can throw strikes--perfect for a 4th SP].

 

[clyons]

RICKIE WEEKS SUCKS

[beck72]

Jenks should not be used to acquire a group of prospects, unless one is elite. Major league starters need to be brought back for Jenks and/or Dye.

Agreed. After the Javy trade for prospects, the sox have to use their remaining trade "chips" to help the 2009 club.

[caulfield12]

You could say "they suck/ed" about 1/2 the players the White Sox have brought in over the last ten years...I'll highlight some particular names for you.

 

Contreras

D. Hermanson

Politte

Thornton

Jenks

Marte

Uribe

Gavin Floyd

Alexei Ramirez

Esteban Loaiza

El Duque

Tadahito Iguchi

Jermaine Dye (not that he sucked, just was a big risk coming off injuries)

Javier Vazquez

Scott Podsednik

Octavio Dotel

Miguel Olivo

 

Sure, there will always be plenty of Julio Ramirezes and DeAngelo Jimenezes to go around, Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, etc., but we have a pretty darn good track record of maximizing the potential of many of the prospects/suspects and undervalued veterans we've acquired in recent years. Sure, Nick Swisher was a pretty big disappointment, but he wasn't a big enough problem to keep up from winning the division, thanks to the likes of DeWayne Wise.

Edited December 6, 2008 by caulfield12

[clyons]

You could say "they suck/ed" about 1/2 the players the White Sox have brought in over the last ten years...I'll highlight some particular names for you.

 

Contreras

D. Hermanson

Politte

Thornton

Jenks

Marte

Uribe

Gavin Floyd

Alexei Ramirez

Esteban Loaiza

El Duque

Tadahito Iguchi

Jermaine Dye (not that he sucked, just was a big risk coming off injuries)

Javier Vazquez

Scott Podsednik

Octavio Dotel

Miguel Olivo

 

Sure, there will always be plenty of Julio Ramirezes and DeAngelo Jimenezes to go around, Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, etc., but we have a pretty darn good track record of maximizing the potential of many of the prospects/suspects and undervalued veterans we've acquired in recent years. Sure, Nick Swisher was a pretty big disappointment, but he wasn't a big enough problem to keep up from winning the division, thanks to the likes of DeWayne Wise.

 

True; but other than Pods (and maybe Contreras and Floyd), none of the above were acquired in exchange for a player of Jenks' value to the current squad. Most were acquired for cash. All suckage is relative. If we trade Bobby, we need to be fairly certain to get players back who can contribute now, not guys with mere potential.

[G&T]

True; but other than Pods (and maybe Contreras and Floyd), none of the above were acquired in exchange for a player of Jenks' value to the current squad. Most were acquired for cash. All suckage is relative. If we trade Bobby, we need to be fairly certain to get players back who can contribute now, not guys with mere potential.

 

Ok, but you just named everyone on that list acquired via trade besides Javy who the Sox gave up their top prospect for, and Thornton who was acquired for nothing. So KW has a tendency to give up value to the current roster for question marks.

[Dick Allen]

You could say "they suck/ed" about 1/2 the players the White Sox have brought in over the last ten years...I'll highlight some particular names for you.

 

Contreras

D. Hermanson

Politte

Thornton

Jenks

Marte

Uribe

Gavin Floyd

Alexei Ramirez

Esteban Loaiza

El Duque

Tadahito Iguchi

Jermaine Dye (not that he sucked, just was a big risk coming off injuries)

Javier Vazquez

Scott Podsednik

Octavio Dotel

Miguel Olivo

 

Sure, there will always be plenty of Julio Ramirezes and DeAngelo Jimenezes to go around, Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, etc., but we have a pretty darn good track record of maximizing the potential of many of the prospects/suspects and undervalued veterans we've acquired in recent years. Sure, Nick Swisher was a pretty big disappointment, but he wasn't a big enough problem to keep up from winning the division, thanks to the likes of DeWayne Wise.

Of that entire list, very few have had sustained success. Dye has, but he at least had a track record earlier in his career, and Jenks. Other than that, except for Ramirez, each has for a time sucked as a member of the White Sox. Some, like Hermanson could be from injury, some just went back to sucking.

[caulfield12]

Mr. Richie Allen,

 

Here's one thing nobody's really talking about, the elephant in the room.

 

What if the economy will be even worse going into the 2010 season, and all signs are pointing towards that eventuality with the recently announced losses of over half a million jobs and predictions of 10% unemployment rates heading into 2010...wouldn't Cabrera be much better off RIGHT NOW taking whatever he could get in a guaranteed 2-3 year deal, instead of playing through another season at age 34/35? He could possibly get injured or degrade his future market value, even by missing 6-8 weeks of the season, yes? What would he actually be able to do to increase that value, as he would be a year older, and the chances of him putting up significantly better offensive stats at this point in his career aren't very good...not to manage his range is decreasing each and every season.

 

Everyone wants to think they can predict the future and the market, and his agent might have the idea some here do of waiting it out another year for things to get better, but the odds are better than 50% right now things will be exponentially worse.

[caulfield12]

True; but other than Pods (and maybe Contreras and Floyd), none of the above were acquired in exchange for a player of Jenks' value to the current squad. Most were acquired for cash. All suckage is relative. If we trade Bobby, we need to be fairly certain to get players back who can contribute now, not guys with mere potential.

 

 

I'll agree with one thing, I don't care about prospects anymore. We need to get someone who can contribute immediately to the starting rotation, or, worse case scenario, a couple more potential closers that are AAA/1st/2nd year service players.

 

The Brewers can't give us any starters, unless we realistically believe they'll give up Parra...which wouldn't make much sense, because you have no need for an elite closer if you have so many holes in your rotation, opportunities to save meaningful games would be somewhat limited.

 

The other place to look is CF, and there you're talking Hart, Billy Hall, Gwynn Jr (as a fourth/fifth outfielder...which we don't really need, already having Owens/Anderson/Wise/Lillibridge).

 

Trading for Hall is illogical, that doesn't save you any money at all, assuming Jenks will go up to around $5 million or so this season from $500K.

 

 

[clyons]

I'll agree with one thing, I don't care about prospects anymore. We need to get someone who can contribute immediately to the starting rotation, or, worse case scenario, a couple more potential closers that are AAA/1st/2nd year service players.

 

The Brewers can't give us any starters, unless we realistically believe they'll give up Parra...which wouldn't make much sense, because you have no need for an elite closer if you have so many holes in your rotation, opportunities to save meaningful games would be somewhat limited.

 

The other place to look is CF, and there you're talking Hart, Billy Hall, Gwynn Jr (as a fourth/fifth outfielder...which we don't really need, already having Owens/Anderson/Wise/Lillibridge).

 

Trading for Hall is illogical, that doesn't save you any money at all, assuming Jenks will go up to around $5 million or so this season from $500K.

I think we're in agreement. When I speak of value to the current squad, I'm not referring to top prospects (as someone else mentioned above). They have future value to be sure, but remain question marks themselves until they prove otherwise. I'm talking about guys who, if removed from the current roster, would leave a gaping whole. Given our bullpen woes, Bobby's loss would be huge. That doesn't make him untouchable, but if he goes, we need to make up for that loss by improving the current team in other ways, as ninth innings will become even scarier.

 

Personally, I'm not sure we match up well with the Brewers for Bobby (although Lord knows they need a closer), because the best value we could receive for them would seem to be from their farm.

[iamshack]

Personally, I think everyone is overvaluing Escobar right now. I don't know how he bats, but it seems to me that he is the next Omar Vizquel at the very best, and that's how Cesar Izturis was valued at one time as well. There's no way in blue hell I'd deal Jenks for Escobar, and I'd honestly have to be convinced to deal Hardy for Jenks, merely because the Sox are losing a huge (no pun intended) portion of the bullpen in doing so.

 

If the Sox deal Jenks to the Brewers, it'd be Weeks and a pitching prospect. Quite honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Weeks and Villanueva.

 

I agree about Weeks, but after seeing what Javy brought back, I think we'd be getting 2-3 other prospects as well. Weeks' value has fallen greatly due to both performance and injury concerns. I don't think you can discount what Bobby has done the last 3.5 years while Weeks has not lived up to his advance billing.

 

This protential move actually makes a lot more sense to me than many of the others that have been discussed.

 

Perhaps we could take a page from the Reds' book and Brandon Phillips him...

[266344]

SS J.J. Hardy or Alcides Escobar: The Brewers have their best positional depth at shortstop, a position of need for a number of teams in baseball, so a trade could make some sense if it can net some pitching. Hardy has one of the National League's best shortstop arms and has hit 50 home runs over the past two seasons, but Escobar is even better defensively and batted .328 with 34 stolen bases at Double-A Huntsville in 2008. Hardy has only two seasons left before free agency. Given his youth and promise, it would be shocking to see Melvin trade Escobar.

 

If the Brewers do not trade either player, Escobar could begin the year at Triple-A Nashville. Or, he could play shortstop in Milwaukee and Hardy could be asked to move to third base. Both are right-handed hitters, though.