Rumors: Sox/Reds Talking Dye for Bailey Swap

[RockRaines]

Every pitcher is different. You've got some guys that are just stubborn. Kinda like Kerry Wood all those years. Maybe easily wasn't the right word. But a good pitching coach+a pitcher's willingness to change and mechanics more times than not are fixable.

Kerry Wood's stuff was really dependent on his terrible mechanics though, which is why it was hard to change them.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Bailey has a reputation for not listening (at least, according to what I've read on the Reds message boards). It's the main reason they want to get him out.

 

Sounds like a guy we traded for a couple years ago (I know. That was a once in a lifetime happening. Will see another Michael Jordan in Chicago before we see another Gavin Floyd situation). That's not aimed at you by the way.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Kerry Wood's stuff was really dependent on his terrible mechanics though, which is why it was hard to change them.

 

Yeah, you're right. That's why I mentioned that every pitcher is different. Only thing I'm worried about when it comes to Bailey (and that's only if we deal for him) is if the stuff is still there. That can't be fixed. But I have total confidence that Kenny and his people wouldn't even consider Homer if velocity/stuff was the problem.

[G&T]

Sounds like a guy we traded for a couple years ago (I know. That was a once in a lifetime happening. Will see another Michael Jordan in Chicago before we see another Gavin Floyd situation). That's not aimed at you by the way.

 

Floyd didn't have that reputation at all. In fact, as I understand it, he listened to everyone and they were all giving different advice which lead to all sorts of problems.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Floyd didn't have that reputation at all. In fact, as I understand it, he listened to everyone and they were all giving different advice which lead to all sorts of problems.

 

That's not the way I remember it. Part of the book on Floyd at the time was that he was severely lacking between the ears. That he didn't always take the advice of those that were trying to help him.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Jordan4life

[G&T]

Here is a recent recap of the Floyd era in Phily:

 

I wonder what the rotation could have been had it included a Gavin Floyd the Phillies decided to dump because nobody had the people skills to help him through his crisis of confidence. Why he had become more nibbler than a 6-5, 230-pound, $4.2 million force of nature sure to become a dominant power pitcher in a rotation with Cole Hamels and Myers.

 

The Phillies are never much for playing the blame game. Historically, they have chosen the "Anybody can make a mistake" avenue of accountability. It is a rutted and well-traveled road. Rolled heads do not line their bumpy boulevard of broken dreams. The Phillies move the Ox carts stoically ahead - even when the blunder costs the services of a Floyd and a total of $14.2 million in cash, factoring the $10 million paid to Garcia, who contributed one 2007 victory before beginning a backward count from 10 to 1 for Dr. Andrews.

 

Front-office types blame pitching coach Joe Kerrigan for changing Floyd from a four-seam-fastball power arm with a huge 12-6 curve to a two-seam sinkerballer with a cut fastball. But in Kerrigan's defense-a feeble one, I admit-the Professor was trying to give the kid a way to stay in the big leagues. He had lost his killer stuff. Mentally, the kid was a mess.

 

Floyd has since admitted he fell victim to the blizzard of conflicting advice he was getting and didn't begin to reclaim his Futures Game stuff until he cleared his head of all good intentions and remembered the delivery and straight-ahead aggressiveness that earned him that record bonus.

 

One hot night when he was pitching for Class A Clearwater, I watched him go from no-hitter stuff to fretting, petulant brat who turned another goose egg into a crooked number because an umpire pinched him on a couple of pitches. I told Arbuckle that Floyd totally lost his poise and appeared to have demeanor issues. Mike said, au contraire, media man, the reports said the exact opposite.

 

Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle, but I don't think he had any attitude problems until his confidence was shot.

[scenario]

I know the Dye/Bailey deal looks dead but found this about Bailey's mechanics http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2008/12/...chanics-homer-b . In short his mechanics don't look so good.

 

 

That's a very interesting article.

 

Definitely something that would make me think twice before acquiring him.

 

I was aware that part of the problem is the way he wraps he arm behind his back.

 

But this article points out a couple more issues that would give me concern if I was a GM.

 

It'll be interesting to see if the injury predictions come true.

 

[ptatc]

I know the Dye/Bailey deal looks dead but found this about Bailey's mechanics http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2008/12/...chanics-homer-b . In short his mechanics don't look so good.

that article is based on at least two conflicting theories of pitching mechanics.

 

I for one don't agree that scap loading is a bad thing. It can be bad when combined with the fact that his pelvis drifts too far forward before his trunk begins to come forward.

 

I haven't seen him pitch much but it's obvious someone tried to alter his mechanics. He's using some of the old "drop and drive" mechanics in the lower extremity and the House/Ryan theory with his arm and the curveball grip.

 

He looks to be trying too many different things at once and succeeding at none.

 

If he listens to advice and gets one input, i think he can be straightened out in a short period of time.

 

[heirdog]

I lost all faith in "mechanics" arguments with Mark Prior.

[ptatc]

I lost all faith in "mechanics" arguments with Mark Prior.

 

Well there are teo aspects to sports performance: physical and mental.

 

While I disagree with the mechanics philosophy of the people he worked with, I think his problem is more the latter.

[RockRaines]

Here is a recent recap of the Floyd era in Phily:

 

 

 

Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle, but I don't think he had any attitude problems until his confidence was shot.

One thing the tinkering in Philly gave Gavin was a 2 seamer and a sinker. He went back to a 4-seam/curve/change pitcher with a high arm slot, but still maintained the grip for a sinker and a cutting fastball.

[witesoxfan]

One thing the tinkering in Philly gave Gavin was a 2 seamer and a sinker. He went back to a 4-seam/curve/change pitcher with a high arm slot, but still maintained the grip for a sinker and a cutting fastball.

 

I really think that Gavin Floyd will be the ace of the staff in the near future, even better than Danks.

[RockRaines]

I really think that Gavin Floyd will be the ace of the staff in the near future, even better than Danks.

I couldnt disagree more, but time will tell. I think Danks has that rare "big game" pitchers mentality that Gavin just doesnt have.

[DBAHO]

I couldnt disagree more, but time will tell. I think Danks has that rare "big game" pitchers mentality that Gavin just doesnt have.

Well Gavin pitched superbly in that 1 game against either Detroit or Minnesota at the end of the season (can't remember which team it was), but still it's an extremely small smaple size obviously.

[RockRaines]

Well Gavin pitched superbly in that 1 game against either Detroit or Minnesota at the end of the season (can't remember which team it was), but still it's an extremely small smaple size obviously.

Check out the way Danks carried this team down the stretch. Even Buehrle said the kid has ice in his vains.

 

In Danks last 5 starts he only had one bad one against Cle. No start was more important than Minny on Sept 30 where he went 8 innings giving up 2 hits.

[joejoesox]

Well Gavin pitched superbly in that 1 game against either Detroit or Minnesota at the end of the season (can't remember which team it was), but still it's an extremely small smaple size obviously.

 

The game where he threw the ball over Konerko's head, while trying to field a ground ball that had AJ's name all over it?

 

I, too, think Danks will be the better pitcher, he just seems more gritty and understanding of situations

 

With that said, both are very young and it's a crapshoot ultimately who will be the better pitcher, Gavin certainly has better stuff than John does (Though Danks' changeup destroys Gavin's)

[witesoxfan]

I'm talking merely from a statistical point of view...I still view him as Halladay deux and think that as he gets reaccustomed to his stuff while also working in everything else, he'll be a damn fine pitcher, and I see him eating more innings than Danks too.

 

There's no one on the roster I'd prefer to be up in any clutch/big game situation than John Danks.

[scenario]

I, too, think Danks will be the better pitcher, he just seems more gritty

 

Is that the pitching equivalent of grindy?

[bear_brian]

Am wondering if Taveras goes to Cincy, does that make Dickerson and Bailey a good enough return for Jermaine? Would also stop Kenny from possibly chasing Taveras ... Would Cincy do that sort of deal?

 

According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, the Reds are interested in Willy Taveras.

The newspaper reports that "the Reds called him as soon as he became a free agent" last week. Taveras would lead off and play center field for the Reds, which would push Chris Dickerson into a reserve role if they add another bat.

Source: Cincinnati Enquirer

[qwerty]

Am wondering if Taveras goes to Cincy, does that make Dickerson and Bailey a good enough return for Jermaine? Would also stop Kenny from possibly chasing Taveras ... Would Cincy do that sort of deal?

 

According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, the Reds are interested in Willy Taveras.

The newspaper reports that "the Reds called him as soon as he became a free agent" last week. Taveras would lead off and play center field for the Reds, which would push Chris Dickerson into a reserve role if they add another bat.

Source: Cincinnati Enquirer

 

I doubt they sign taveras as they simply won't win like they would with jerry hairston jr. I mean come on.

[ThunderBolt]

Am wondering if Taveras goes to Cincy, does that make Dickerson and Bailey a good enough return for Jermaine? Would also stop Kenny from possibly chasing Taveras ... Would Cincy do that sort of deal?

 

According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, the Reds are interested in Willy Taveras.

The newspaper reports that "the Reds called him as soon as he became a free agent" last week. Taveras would lead off and play center field for the Reds, which would push Chris Dickerson into a reserve role if they add another bat.

Source: Cincinnati Enquirer

This was always the optimal return for Dye. Dickerson would be a great addition to the team, and could start in LF opening day

Edited December 17, 2008 by Thunderbolt

[witesoxfan]

I doubt they sign taveras as they simply won't win like they would with jerry hairston jr. I mean come on.

 

I wish Jay Bruce was my GM.

[ThunderBolt]

One of the Red main targets Juan Riviera is on the verge of being resigned by the Angels. This could limit their options even more.

[Dick Allen]

From Gammons:

 

It has been suggested that the best way to decipher the Red Sox-Mark Teixeira negotiations is to pull out your old turntable, put on "Revolution 9" from the Beatles' "White Album" and play it backward. Then you will know what's been offered and what's been requested.

 

We don't know whether the Angels, were they to lose Teixeira, would turn to Manny Ramirez. We don't know whether Randy Levine, Hank Steinbrenner and the Yankees could win out and buy Ramirez. We don't know whether the Red Sox will decide not to pony up and sign Teixeira or whether there really might be a three-way deal among the White Sox, Angels and Reds that would put Jermaine Dye in Cincinnati, Joey Votto in Anaheim and Chone Figgins in Chicago.

 

JD for Figgins? I don't like it.

[Felix]

From Gammons:

 

It has been suggested that the best way to decipher the Red Sox-Mark Teixeira negotiations is to pull out your old turntable, put on "Revolution 9" from the Beatles' "White Album" and play it backward. Then you will know what's been offered and what's been requested.

 

We don't know whether the Angels, were they to lose Teixeira, would turn to Manny Ramirez. We don't know whether Randy Levine, Hank Steinbrenner and the Yankees could win out and buy Ramirez. We don't know whether the Red Sox will decide not to pony up and sign Teixeira or whether there really might be a three-way deal among the White Sox, Angels and Reds that would put Jermaine Dye in Cincinnati, Joey Votto in Anaheim and Chone Figgins in Chicago.

 

JD for Figgins? I don't like it.

That's an amazingly horrible idea.