southsider2k5 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 19, 2008 -> 07:09 AM) Speaking of the Vatican. Pope John Paul II forgave his would be assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, and was instrumental in having the Italian President pardon him and have him released from the Italian prison. Now he was immediatly transfered to Turkey for crimes he committed there, but I always thought it sent a great message about Catholicism and forgiveness. Imagine what a message it would be to the rest of the world if Bush spoke about freedom of speech, of being able to protest in a democracy. Except he has to be very careful to not undercut the legitimacy and independence of the Iraqi government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 19, 2008 -> 08:09 AM) Imagine what a message it would be to the rest of the world if Bush spoke about freedom of speech, of being able to protest in a democracy. [/color] Freedom of speech and throwing objects at a head of state are not the same thing. Imagine the outrage if someone throws a shoe at Obama during his inauguration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 More official sources saying that the guy's been beaten in custody. The investigating judge in the case of the Iraqi journalist who threw shoes at President Bush says the man shows signs of being beaten. Judge Dhia al-Kinani said Friday that the journalist had bruises on his face and around his eyes. The journalist, Muntader al-Zeidi, was wrestled to the ground after throwing the shoes during a Sunday news conference with Mr. Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. CBS News Baghdad producer Randall Joyce says al-Zeidi has been kept completely out of the reach of his legal representation and his family since the show-throwing incident late on Sunday - a fact which typifies a deeply flawed Iraqi justice system. Isn't that precious? Iraq's justice system is growing up so fast, it's acting just like ours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 19, 2008 -> 12:36 PM) More official sources saying that the guy's been beaten in custody. Isn't that precious? Iraq's justice system is growing up so fast, it's acting just like ours! why you gotta be such a Blagojevich? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 QUOTE (mr_genius @ Dec 19, 2008 -> 11:54 AM) why you gotta be such a Blagojevich? I'm taking bribes for postings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 19, 2008 -> 02:27 PM) I'm taking bribes for postings banned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 19, 2008 -> 12:36 PM) More official sources saying that the guy's been beaten in custody. Isn't that precious? Iraq's justice system is growing up so fast, it's acting just like ours! He was beaten right then when he threw the shoe, as he was wrestled to the ground. You also left out this line, "However, Iraqi officials and another brother deny the journalist suffered severe injuries." So why don't you just hold off on your accusations just a few moments until something a little more clear comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 It's not really a wild accusation, that's just how Iraqis (and arabs in general) do business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Gigantic surge in demand for this brand of shoes. The shoe hurled at President George W. Bush has sent sales soaring at the Turkish maker as orders pour in from Iraq, the U.S. and Iran. The brown, thick-soled “Model 271” may soon be renamed “The Bush Shoe” or “Bye-Bye Bush,” Ramazan Baydan, who owns the Istanbul-based producer Baydan Ayakkabicilik San. & Tic., said in a telephone interview today. “We’ve been selling these shoes for years but, thanks to Bush, orders are flying in like crazy,” he said. “We’ve even hired an agency to look at television advertising.” Iraqi journalist Muntadar al-Zeidi hurled a pair at Bush at a news conference in Baghdad on Dec. 14. Both shoes missed the president after he ducked. The journalist was jailed and is seeking a pardon from Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki. Baydan has received orders for 300,000 pairs of the shoes since the attack, more than four times the number his company sold each year since the model was introduced in 1999. The company plans to employ 100 more staff to meet demand, he said. I wonder sometimes if Mr. Bush truly understands how unpopular he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 You knew this wouldn't take long to turn in to a flash game. http://www.sockandawe.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 19, 2008 -> 08:23 AM) Freedom of speech and throwing objects at a head of state are not the same thing. Imagine the outrage if someone throws a shoe at Obama during his inauguration. Bush was in a foreign country where their traditional insult is to throw a shoe. The shoe is clearly not meant to cause physical harm and you would not be imprisoned for doing that to a random person. If a visiting President was here, do the laws and customs of his country apply, or the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 20, 2008 -> 08:36 PM) Gigantic surge in demand for this brand of shoes. I wonder sometimes if Mr. Bush truly understands how unpopular he is. He bought two pairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 07:34 AM) Bush was in a foreign country where their traditional insult is to throw a shoe. The shoe is clearly not meant to cause physical harm and you would not be imprisoned for doing that to a random person. If a visiting President was here, do the laws and customs of his country apply, or the US? If it wasn't meant to harm, why throw it? He could have held it up and made his point all of same, by pointing at the bottom of it and telling him what he was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 08:54 AM) If it wasn't meant to harm, why throw it? He could have held it up and made his point all of same, by pointing at the bottom of it and telling him what he was saying. That just wouldn't make any sense at all, it'd be like making a fist at someone and pointing to it and telling them to imagine your middle finger is raised. They'd look at you like you were retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 08:34 AM) Bush was in a foreign country where their traditional insult is to throw a shoe. The shoe is clearly not meant to cause physical harm and you would not be imprisoned for doing that to a random person. If a visiting President was here, do the laws and customs of his country apply, or the US? It was assault. Assault does not fall under the grounds of freedom of speech. Period. You want a good analogy? What if someone spits on the president while in the US? You think they are just gonna be allowed to walk away without any repercussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 07:54 AM) If it wasn't meant to harm, why throw it? He could have held it up and made his point all of same, by pointing at the bottom of it and telling him what he was saying. Why did raising the middle finger come to mean something? Why is thumbs up an insult in some parts of the world? I don't know why they chose flinging shoes, it seems kind of stupid, you may have to walk home barefooted. Or perhaps tthat is why, you want to insult them so much you will walk home barefooted. Kind of the opposite of crawling a mile on broken glass. But it seems if you flung your shoe at your neighbor, you would not be locked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 08:05 AM) It was assault. Assault does not fall under the grounds of freedom of speech. Period. You want a good analogy? What if someone spits on the president while in the US? You think they are just gonna be allowed to walk away without any repercussion? A good analogy would be a foreign President demanding a US citizen be jailed for flipping him off while he is here in the US. Imagine if the President of Turkey expected Turkish laws be followed in the US while he is here. Again, from what I am reading, where it happened, which is the point of the conversation, it is the equivalent of flipping someone off and not a jailable offense. Are you suggesting that US laws should be enforced around the world? It may be assault based on US laws. But this did not happen in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 09:15 AM) A good analogy would be a foreign President demanding a US citizen be jailed for flipping him off while he is here in the US. Imagine if the President of Turkey expected Turkish laws be followed in the US while he is here. Again, from what I am reading, where it happened, which is the point of the conversation, it is the equivalent of flipping someone off and not a jailable offense. Are you suggesting that US laws should be enforced around the world? It may be assault based on US laws. But this did not happen in the US. He's being tried under their laws and he is facing prison time, what do our laws matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 08:15 AM) A good analogy would be a foreign President demanding a US citizen be jailed for flipping him off while he is here in the US. Imagine if the President of Turkey expected Turkish laws be followed in the US while he is here. Again, from what I am reading, where it happened, which is the point of the conversation, it is the equivalent of flipping someone off and not a jailable offense. Are you suggesting that US laws should be enforced around the world? It may be assault based on US laws. But this did not happen in the US. In Iraq insulting a foreign leader is a crime, and this is what he is being charged with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 09:15 AM) A good analogy would be a foreign President demanding a US citizen be jailed for flipping him off while he is here in the US. Imagine if the President of Turkey expected Turkish laws be followed in the US while he is here. Again, from what I am reading, where it happened, which is the point of the conversation, it is the equivalent of flipping someone off and not a jailable offense. Are you suggesting that US laws should be enforced around the world? No it wouldnt. Throwing an object at someone and making a gesture are not the same thing. Spitting at someone is an insult. Throwing your shoes at someone is an insult in Arab countries. Who cares what it is the equivalent of? If throwing gum at someone in Iraq was the equivalent of punching someone in the face here should they be judged the same way too? It may be assault based on US laws. But this did not happen in the US. So? I'd be willing to bet assault is assault in pretty much every country around the world and that assault is not just a US law. Furthermore, when has Bush demanded that that Iraqi citizen be jailed? I havent seen that or heard that anywhere. From what I remember, didnt GWB say it wasnt a big deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 08:37 AM) No it wouldnt. Throwing an object at someone and making a gesture are not the same thing. Spitting at someone is an insult. Throwing your shoes at someone is an insult in Arab countries. Who cares what it is the equivalent of? If throwing gum at someone in Iraq was the equivalent of punching someone in the face here should they be judged the same way too? So? I'd be willing to bet assault is assault in pretty much every country around the world and that assault is not just a US law. Furthermore, when has Bush demanded that that Iraqi citizen be jailed? I havent seen that or heard that anywhere. From what I remember, didnt GWB say it wasnt a big deal? Indeed, assault is a common law thing, and with some fringey exceptions, is pretty similar from country to country. GWB had to say it was no big deal, for lots of reasons. Even if it was a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 If anything, Bush downplayed it too much. He started talking about how you can do that in a democracy or things to that effect. No... you can't. It's not a sign of progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 08:37 AM) No it wouldnt. Throwing an object at someone and making a gesture are not the same thing. Spitting at someone is an insult. Throwing your shoes at someone is an insult in Arab countries. Who cares what it is the equivalent of? If throwing gum at someone in Iraq was the equivalent of punching someone in the face here should they be judged the same way too? So? I'd be willing to bet assault is assault in pretty much every country around the world and that assault is not just a US law. Furthermore, when has Bush demanded that that Iraqi citizen be jailed? I havent seen that or heard that anywhere. From what I remember, didnt GWB say it wasnt a big deal? Who cares? An earlier analogy was someone spitting on someone here. I agree, what is allowed, not allowed here is not relevant. So, how many people have been jailed for throwing a shoe at someone? Imagine if someone threw a shoe at Rod B. How many citizens of Illinois would be clammering for jail time for the criminal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 08:23 AM) In Iraq insulting a foreign leader is a crime, and this is what he is being charged with. Which is interesting. Wouldn't this be an example of Saddam era laws? I wonder if we have a similar law here which provides jail time for insulting a foreign leader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 If an American threw a shoe at Bush, Blagojevich, or Obama, they'd be facing charges, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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