Sox enter rebuilding phase

[G&T]

Francisco Liriano says "I disagree."

 

If they would have brought him up 6-8 weeks earlier, they take the division pretty easily. If Neshek isn't out for the entire season and they actually spend the money to replace him, they take the division. Same thing with acquiring either Hawkins or Bradford at the break instead of Eddie Guardado. Heck, if they hadn't signed Hernandez, Lamb and Monroe, they'd have won...or if Cuddyer hadn't been injured, etc.

 

Yes, we lost Crede, Contreras, Linebrink and Quentin, but to say we'd have walked away with the division easily simply isn't true, because no team is 100% healthy for an entire season, not even the 2005 White Sox (Pods, Big Hurt, Hermanson).

 

This argument makes no sense. On one hand, if the Twins don't suffer injuries then they win easily. But we can't say the same about the Sox because no team is ever healthy?

 

 

[caulfield12]

Last 13 starts for Livan Hernandez.

73 2/3 IP, 119 H, 6.96 ERA (Twins go 6-7 in those games)

 

Last 11 starts for Francisco Liriano

Liriano goes 6-1

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Last 13 starts for Livan Hernandez.

73 2/3 IP, 119 H, 6.96 ERA (Twins go 6-7 in those games)

 

Last 11 starts for Francisco Liriano

Liriano goes 6-1

 

 

And you conveniently forgot to add the Twins record of 6-5 in Liriano's last 11 starts. Not much of an overall difference from Livans last 11 games where the Twins went 5-6.

[caulfield12]

Which leads right back to my point about their bullpen being horrible/atrocious because

 

1) they never replaced Neshek at the beginning of the year

2) Nathan collapsed on the road down the stretch

3) Balfour and Rincon were let go

4) Crain, Guerrier, Bass and Bonser weren't capable of pitching in the 8th

5) They went cheap and traded for Guardado instead of getting RH guys in Hawkins or Bradford...when they already had Mijares, Reyes and Breslow

 

Usually four non-decisions aren't going to go against you....out of four starts. It should be 2-2, statistically, do you not agree?

 

That would mean 8-3 and not 6-5, which is a huge difference in the standings.

Edited December 15, 2008 by caulfield12

[scenario]

I am pretty sure someone else on here posted that it wasn't Tavares but the pitcher that the Rocks were getting back that failed a physical.

 

IIRC, it was supposed to be Tim Redding for Willy Taveras, but Redding failed the physical.

 

[Lemon_44]

I think Linebrink was as big as loss,probably bigger, than anyone else. Prior to getting hurt, the guy was darn near unhittable. If the Sox were ahead after 7,game over.

[Steve9347]

I think Linebrink was as big as loss,probably bigger, than anyone else. Prior to getting hurt, the guy was darn near unhittable. If the Sox were ahead after 7,game over.

Somehow the Sox lost the dependable Linebrink for most of the season, Jose Contreras for the final, what, two months? AND Carlos Quentin for the final month and still won the division.

 

Ozzie should have been Manager of the Year.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Francisco Liriano says "I disagree."

 

If they would have brought him up 6-8 weeks earlier, they take the division pretty easily. If Neshek isn't out for the entire season and they actually spend the money to replace him, they take the division. Same thing with acquiring either Hawkins or Bradford at the break instead of Eddie Guardado. Heck, if they hadn't signed Hernandez, Lamb and Monroe, they'd have won...or if Cuddyer hadn't been injured, etc.

 

Yes, we lost Crede, Contreras, Linebrink and Quentin, but to say we'd have walked away with the division easily simply isn't true, because no team is 100% healthy for an entire season, not even the 2005 White Sox (Pods, Big Hurt, Hermanson).

 

You totally contradicted yourself with this post.

[elrockinMT]

I wouldn't have minded a trade for Taveras earlier, but now we know he's hurt. The f***ing Nationals (I'm pretty sure it was them) wouldn't take him because he couldn't pass a physical.

 

Anderson has earned a starting spot. He did everything asked of him last year, and I didn't hear any complaints. Give him the chance he has worked for.

 

 

This I agree with it

[caulfield12]

The point is, every team has to play through injuries and can certainly make excuses, but Ozzie doesn't.

 

The fact is, we finished one game ahead of the Twins. We weren't going to easily walk away with the division, any more than the Twins were going to take it away from us. Both teams had plenty of excuses that could be called upon. The Twins could certainly cry "small market" and that they would have won had they not had to let Santana and Torii Hunter go, and had Brad Radke not retired, etc.

 

What happens is what's supposed to happen, lol. I've made excuses over and over again for 2003 and 2006, but I've come to the realization that we were the better team was just a rationalization. If we were the better teams those years (of course, in 2003 Jerry Manuel is conveniently blamed), then we would have won, simple. But to say we should have walked away with the AL Central last year is pretty preposterous.

Edited December 15, 2008 by caulfield12

[Jordan4life_2007]

The point is, every team has to play through injuries and can certainly make excuses, but Ozzie doesn't.

 

But to say we should have walked away with the AL Central last year is pretty preposterous.

 

I agree with this. And it's just as ridiculous to come up with 10 different scenarios in which the Twins could have easily walked away with the division.

[MO2005]

This team HAS to do something. I mean if they go out there with this team on the field, then there is no reason whatsoever to show support. I am very interested to see what Sox Fest will be like considering this current budget status. I just don't get how we win a division and then practically spend 0 dollars the following offseason.

 

We have so many holes right now and I know we won't fill them all. If we trade Dye to clear some room for a pitcher and outfielder, then fine. But trading a guy to get some unproven rookies in here doesn't do much for this franchise. They should of done this after 2007 with that 90 loss season. Not after winning a division and making some noise last offseason.

 

I just don't get it and I am not blaming the economy for us cutting the budget. I really was thrown off when Kenny said in the interview the other day that he doesn't know what the fan support will be like. He hopes they will support. That is a sign of being desperate and sending fans a message.

[lostfan]

Somehow the Sox lost the dependable Linebrink for most of the season, Jose Contreras for the final, what, two months? AND Carlos Quentin for the final month and still won the division.

 

Ozzie should have been Manager of the Year.

Meh, there were really times when I felt the Sox were winning in spite of him. He makes some of the most bizarre, and sometimes just plain dumb decisions. I think he pulls random things out of his ass and assigns them arbitrary values based on whatever ends up coming out, and makes decisions that way. Or uses a magic 8-ball. Or both.

[ILMOU]

Lets say Getz wins 2B out of spring training. Ozzie said he is batting 9th. That is why Jerry Owens will start over BA, because Jerry Owens is a leadoff hitter, BA is not.

 

Of course one trade could change all of this but as we stand and what I can say from this article this is 2009 lineup:

 

Owens CF

AJP C

Quentin LF

Dye RF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Ramirez SS

Fields 3B

Getz 2B

 

AJP better not be batting 2nd again. His OBP is horrendous, which is what you need in front of Q. Now if Abreu is acquired after a Dye trade, along with Taveras, your lineup looks like this:

 

Willy T CF

Abreu LF

Q RF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Ramirez SS

AJP

Fields

Getz

 

OR if Getz performs like an ideal #2 and changes Ozzie's mind:

 

Willy T

Getz

Q

Abreu

Konerko

Thome

Alexei

AJP

Fields

 

[MO2005]

AJP better not be batting 2nd again. His OBP is horrendous, which is what you need in front of Q. Now if Abreu is acquired after a Dye trade, along with Taveras, your lineup looks like this:

 

Willy T CF

Abreu LF

Q RF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Ramirez SS

AJP

Fields

Getz

 

OR if Getz performs like an ideal #2 and changes Ozzie's mind:

 

Willy T

Getz

Q

Abreu

Konerko

Thome

Alexei

AJP

Fields

 

 

 

Now urs I would like. That first one would be disgusting! We may lose 100 games!

[chiguy79]

Some might argue NOW is the time you have to "attack" and take advantage of the DET economic situation and the fact that Minnesota and Cleveland (Kerry Wood move notwithstanding) are more sensitive "mid-market" teams to seize control of the division by the throat.

 

The White Sox are the team most "cushioned" for the downturn/recession in terms of their ability to generate revenues, and coming off a playoff appearance. Does everyone not agree?

 

CLE, DET are very vulnerable cities...OH/Cleveland because of the auto industry, and Ohio has been hardest hit by the foreclosure bug, particularly cities like Cleveland.

 

I'm certainly not saying go out and spend Burnett or Lowe money here. I do think they really have to look hard at the second tier (Garland, Brad Penny, Andy Pettitte, Oliver Perez, Randy Wolf and a couple of others like Paul Byrd) and solidify that starting rotation with an additional pitcher. I can see NOT adding a leadoff hitter/CFer, I get that, or maybe just adding Taveras on the cheap, but to not cushion the blow to our starting rotation and have to make a move out of desperation in mid-season seems to be putting us behind the eight ball. Surely there's no desire for a repeat of 2007, and we have better depth now than having to go to an Andy Gonzalez or Wasserman for large stretches of the season.

 

HOWEVER, even if there was a major teamwide system failure, having a veteran pitcher signed for only 2-3 seasons SHOULDN'T be a difficult piece to trade at the break if everything just falls apart....I'm thinking the only back-up plan right now is Jose Contreras, and that makes me really nervous at this point. Still, we have two months to wait it out, and pitchers like Ben Sheets might not get what they want.

 

Certainly, Burrell/Dunn/Grifffey/Rivera/Abreu/Bradley will be under considerable stress to get over 2 years and over $10 million per season....this both works for and against the White Sox both trading Dye and/or acquiring a LF option on the "cheap" simultaneously. Same with the "diminishing" closer's market moving against the Sox and Jenks.

 

 

I totally agree with this, we should have the payroll flexibility to have a much better team on paper at least, not 3 "unknowns" in our lineup.

 

The Sox can't play it both ways and cry that the economy is bad so they have to cut payroll while at the same time raising ticket prices on their customers 10%. Will be interesting to see how the seaon plays out becuase I am sure at the higher prices if they have a .500 or sub .500 year they will lose a large amount of the ST holder base that they should be doing whatever they can to retain.

 

[Princess Dye]

I dont know that I want to spend payroll on what's out there this offseason.

 

The gigantic names aside, I'm really not tantalized by names like Garland, Pettitte.

 

I want the young core of this team to grow around people who are just reaching their peak. I dont want to start the next mish mosh of over the hill plus youngsters.

 

in '05, there was some uniformity on where people were in their careers. It helps.

 

 

 

Lets be real good at some point. Lets not be just decent enough to win the AL Central (or if we're going to do that, lets keep doing it with youth movement at the forefront. it worked last yr).

 

 

 

Basically i dont want to spend a ton to just be good enough to win the Central.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Princess Dye

[caulfield12]

The thing with Pettitte is having a veteran, stable leader on the team for about $10-12 million for one or two years would really be a bridge to the next generation of Sox starters like Poreda, Richard, Marquez, etc.

 

Not interested in signing Penny, Oliver Perez, Wolf, Garland, Eric Milton, Paul Byrd...anyone like that, for over 2 years. PERIOD.

 

The question is, is it worth the money? Well, we all know that the playoffs are all about getting hot at the right time, and our pitching rotation was totally out of whack (and overworked) by the time we got to TB, not to mention the fact we never play well in domed stadiums. Still, I'd much rather invest that money in stabilizing the starting rotation than putting it into the offense at this point. We need at least one veteran starter if we're going to contend next year. It's pretty obvious KW is waiting for the bottom to fall out of the market and to see what bargains (like Cabrera) are out there. In another 2 months, things might look dramatically worse for the FA market, even in starting pitching.

Edited December 16, 2008 by caulfield12

[greg775]

Basically i dont want to spend a ton to just be good enough to win the Central.

 

The way I see it is they are going to raise ticket prices a ton anyway and keep charging big bucks for food, parking, etc. Who cares about what they pay out on salary? The money thing can go either way. Some teams that don't spend win. Some that don't spend really suck, like the Royals. I just think we need another starter who has some experience, maybe 2, could use an upgrade at third or second and backup catcher. If it takes money to get these things, then spend. Why throw away a season?

If we are going to keep Thome/Dye/Paulie/AJP/Mark, they are not getting any younger. With veterans we should at least fight for the Central title every year. If it takes spending, it's not your money. They are definitely going to take your money no matter what.

 

And yes I already realize we have one of the highest payrolls, so good for the Sox

management in that regard.

Edited December 16, 2008 by greg775