Jenks tells critics off

[lostfan]

Bobby: I can throw fast if I wanted to but I don't

 

Soxtalk: NUH UH!

[scenario]

According to John Dewan, Bobby's average fastball in 2008 (over the entire season) was 93.8mph.

 

 

[nitetrain8601]

That's terrible from a power pitcher

[Kalapse]

According to John Dewan, Bobby's average fastball in 2008 (over the entire season) was 93.8mph.

It was about the same in 2007 but 95.8 in '06 and 97 mph in '05.

[SpringfieldFan]

Let me put my opinion this way. Bobby has been great since his plane landed in Chicago. Only a fool would argue otherwise. He is one of the top half a dozen closers in the game right now. However, if he were mixing in the 100mph heater, he would be yet another level above even where he is now. He would be THE best. I'm talking "Mariano in his prime, ERA in the 1.00's" type best.

[scenario]

That's terrible from a power pitcher

 

????????????

 

Why is an average 94mph fastball terrible? If you look at the good fastball pitchers in MLB, most are in the same ballpark.

 

I think the problem is people thinking of Jenks as only a 'power pitcher'.

 

I think it's time that people stopped calling Bobby a 'power pitcher' and just call him what he is... an excellent pitcher.

 

Kyle Farnsworth is a power pitcher... who sucks. And there are lots of other good examples of guys who can fire the ball but can't pitch worth a damn.

 

Bobby is dominant closer whose fastball averages about 94mph. And that ain't bad.

 

 

 

[The Critic]

????????????

 

Why is an average 94mph fastball terrible? If you look at the good fastball pitchers in MLB, most are in the same ballpark.

 

I think the problem is people thinking of Jenks as only a 'power pitcher'.

 

I think it's time that people stopped calling Bobby a 'power pitcher' and just call him what he is... an excellent pitcher.

 

Kyle Farnsworth is a power pitcher... who sucks. And there are lots of other good examples of guys who can fire the ball but can't pitch worth a damn.

 

Bobby is dominant closer whose fastball averages about 94mph. And that ain't bad.

Damn straight.

 

You know what I like best about Bobby? He gets the 27th out WAY more often than he doesn't.

I'm not going to doubt the only bullpen arm the Sox have who doesn't give me the s***s when they send him out there.

[michelangelosmonkey]

Why? I love Bobby, but he's not untouchable. He'd made a comment in jest, and i played the advocate. Why can't we discuss this?

 

The problem with the "really good minor league outfielder" is what a long shot that still is. Here is the list of AA all star outfielders from the 3 AA leagues in 2005.

 

Alex Romero

Chris Robertson

Daniel Ortmeier

Jerry Owens

Delmon Young

Matt Murton

Jeremy Hermidea

Tyler Minges

TJ Bohn

Andre Ethier

 

With perfect foresight only Ethier, I suspect, would you consider trading straight up for Jenks today. But in fact you wouldn't have that perfect foresight and would end up with a one in ten chance of getting a guy that is as good as Jenks and a 90% chance of being pissed off at the lousy trade we made for that AA all star outfielder. Jenks is really good major league starter and is not worth a small chance at a really good major leaguer.

 

[caulfield12]

I think there are quite a few who might rather have everyday players in D. Young or Hermida than a closer...it's an interesting argument at least.

 

Also, if you said take one of the Eastern, Southern or Texas League Top 10 prospects from one of those same years, it might be a different story. Many times, All-Stars are picked based one season's accomplishments, but they are not usually selected as All-Stars based on their MLB potential. Sometimes a first-rounder will win a vote, but usually the most deserving players (statistically) make it, and many of them are future MLB players, but probably not more than 50-65%.

Edited December 20, 2008 by caulfield12

[SpringfieldFan]

Bobby is dominant closer whose fastball averages about 94mph. And that ain't bad.

 

Absolutely, no question about it. However. consider if we could say this:

 

"Bobby is dominant closer whose fastball averages about 99mph." All else being equal, how can that not be even better?

Edited December 20, 2008 by SpringfieldFan

[whitesoxfan101]

I am no less concerned about his velocity drop then I was before I read the article. It would be one thing if he lost velocity "on purpose" because he couldn't get people out a la Kyle Farnsworth when he threw near 100 MPH, but that's not the case. He did show late last season that he still has some extra velocity there when he needs it, but early in his career he showed he could locate and get people out when throwing in the high 90's to 100, so I'd rather see him throwing at that level then throwing 92-94. Fortunately, he's got people out no matter how hard he threw, and I hope that continues.

Edited December 20, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[scenario]

I am no less concerned about his velocity drop then I was before I read the article. It would be one thing if he lost velocity "on purpose" because he couldn't get people out a la Kyle Farnsworth when he threw near 100 MPH, but that's not the case. He did show late last season that he still has some extra velocity there when he needs it, but early in his career he showed he could locate and get people out when throwing in the high 90's to 100, so I'd rather see him throwing at that level then throwing 92-94. Fortunately, he's got people out no matter how hard he threw, and I hope that continues.

 

He's not topping out at 94. Averaging 94 mph means he threw just as many 96 mph fastballs this year as he did 92mph fastballs.

 

Averaging 94 mph is nothing to sneeze at. Is there anybody on the Sox staff other than Thornton who consistently throws that fast? That's top-end speed for either Danks or Floyd.

 

At his peak in 2006 (in terms of speed), Bobby was throwing an average of 97mph. (In other words, he was throwing just as many 94-95 mph fastballs as he was 99-100).

 

So the real difference between 2006 when he was throwing his hardest... and this year... is 3mph on his average fastball.

 

But which Bobby was the better pitcher? The 2006 version 97mph version or the 2007/2008 94 mph version?

Edited December 20, 2008 by scenario

[SoxAce]

Been saying it all along for a good 2 years here.

[BearSox]

????????????

 

Why is an average 94mph fastball terrible? If you look at the good fastball pitchers in MLB, most are in the same ballpark.

 

I think the problem is people thinking of Jenks as only a 'power pitcher'.

 

I think it's time that people stopped calling Bobby a 'power pitcher' and just call him what he is... an excellent pitcher.

 

Kyle Farnsworth is a power pitcher... who sucks. And there are lots of other good examples of guys who can fire the ball but can't pitch worth a damn.

 

Bobby is dominant closer whose fastball averages about 94mph. And that ain't bad.

 

A 94 mph fastball ain't bad if it has some movement on it... but guess what, it doesn't.

[lostfan]

A 94 mph fastball ain't bad if it has some movement on it... but guess what, it doesn't.

Oh, that probably explains why his ERA has gone up every year and why his WHIP is so high, he has so much trouble getting guys out. Right?

[BearSox]

Oh, that probably explains why his ERA has gone up every year and why his WHIP is so high, he has so much trouble getting guys out. Right?

LOL, do you ever watch him pitch? I don't give a s*** what the stats say, Jenks has become more hittable every single year. It's just a matter of time before hitters catch up.

Edited December 20, 2008 by BearSox

[knightni]

I don't give a s*** what the stats say

 

 

[scenario]

I don't give a s*** what the stats say, Jenks has become more hittable every single year.

 

OK... so... if he's 'more hittable', I'm assuming that people would be getting more hits then right?

 

Year - BAA - H/9

2005 - .225 - 7.78

2006 - .253 - 8.53

2007 - .198 - 6.23

2008 - .230 - 7.44

 

So... he has been LESS hittable (in terms of H/9) in the last two years than he was in his first two years... not more.

 

 

 

 

 

[qwerty]

OK... so... if he's 'more hittable', I'm assuming that people would be getting more hits then right?

 

Year - BAA - H/9

2005 - .225 - 7.78

2006 - .253 - 8.53

2007 - .198 - 6.23

2008 - .230 - 7.44

 

So... he has been LESS hittable (in terms of H/9) in the last two years than he was in his first two years... not more.

 

Dude, he just doesn't care what the stats say.

[lostfan]

LOL, do you ever watch him pitch? I don't give a s*** what the stats say, Jenks has become more hittable every single year. It's just a matter of time before hitters catch up.

LOL, do YOU ever watch him pitch?

 

Tell me something, if he's become so hittable, then why aren't guys hitting off of him, and if so, when are they doing it? It's an absurdly simple question, and you can't answer it by saying "because they are." Well, I suppose you could, but it wouldn't make any sense. You act like he's out there getting his s*** rocked... of course guys hit off him sometimes, guys hit off Mariano Rivera, K-Rod, Joe Nathan, etc. too.

[scenario]

Dude, he just doesn't care what the stats say.

 

Yeah, I know.

 

I just couldn't help myself.

 

It was like an itch I needed to scratch.

 

[SpringfieldFan]

OK... so... if he's 'more hittable', I'm assuming that people would be getting more hits then right?

 

Year - BAA - H/9

2005 - .225 - 7.78

2006 - .253 - 8.53

2007 - .198 - 6.23

2008 - .230 - 7.44

 

So... he has been LESS hittable (in terms of H/9) in the last two years than he was in his first two years... not more.

 

Just because his stats didn't worsen with the drop in velocity doesn't mean the drop in velocity had a role in that. The stats may well have been even better if he still used the same heat. Basically, these numbers tell me that whatever effectiveness he lost from the drop in velocity was made up for elsewhere, lets say for the sake of argument by knowing hitters tendencies better now. Well, isn't it a shame he doesn't have the added effectiveness from knowing hitters better as well as his original velecity?

Edited December 20, 2008 by SpringfieldFan

[fathom]

What was his inherited runners/scored from last season?

[NorthSideSox72]

What was his inherited runners/scored from last season?

That's not a very good measure for closers. When used properly, Jenks will almost always come in just for the 9th, or the closing inning. The few times he didn't are aberrant and would skew the data oddly. That measure is really only useful for non-closing relievers.

 

For a closer, the ultimate measure is Save % (not gross total), and then behind that are your normal performance numbers - ERA, WHIP, K/9, etc.

 

[StrangeSox]

LOL, do you ever watch him pitch? I don't give a s*** what the stats say, Jenks has become more hittable every single year. It's just a matter of time before hitters catch up.

 

You don't care about the stats (read: actual results of baseball games/ plays) because they directly contradict your bulls*** assertions.

 

Just because his stats didn't worsen with the drop in velocity doesn't mean the drop in velocity had a role in that. The stats may well have been even better if he still used the same heat. Basically, these numbers tell me that whatever effectiveness he lost from the drop in velocity was made up for elsewhere, lets say for the sake of argument by knowing hitters tendencies better now. Well, isn't it a shame he doesn't have the added effectiveness from knowing hitters better as well as his original velecity?

 

Sure, we'd all love a Bobby Jenks who can pitch exactly as he did last year and a 100 MPH fastball with movement, but that's not the argument. The argument that some are trying to make is that his drop in velocity over the past two seasons are a clear indication that he's becoming less effective when the exact opposite is true.

Edited December 21, 2008 by StrangeSox