Obsessed with (the lack of) Sox off-season moves?

[Bubba Philips]

For one reason last year was so great nobody expected much from us.. Quentin who was said to have a high ceiling but less than stellar numbers the past 2 partial seasons excelled. Alexei who was signed but by most assumptions would start at 3A had a great rookie season.. I would like to think that KW doesn't like to sign great players they become great after he signs them.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2008 by forrestg

[MO2005]

For one reason last year was so great nobody expected much from us.. Quentin who was said to have a high ceiling but less than stellar numbers the past 2 partial seasons excelled. Alexei who was signed but by most assumptions would start at 3A had a great rookie season.. I would like to think that KW doesn't like to sign great players they become great after he signs them.

 

And what about Orlando Cabrera and Nick Swisher?

 

Kenny pulled some triggers last year that made us at least question the possibility..Kenny has always been a win now type of GM. In my eyes there is no reason whatsoever to change now after 7-8 years of the same style. It brought us a championship and 3 division titles. His track record is not good when he resorts to this idea. In 2007 we went 72-90. The only off season moves we made were Darin Erstad, Gavin Floyd, John Danks, and Nick Massett. 3 young guys and a washed up vet. Floyd, Danks, and Massett couldn't be counted on to win 15-17 games because they were young unproven players.

 

Now this offseason we have acquired about 5 young guys. Only 2-3 have a shot at major league level, and again who knows what will happen. This offseason just totally reminds me of 2007 and we all know the outcome!

[greg775]

It just seems like this would be a perfect time to make some significant changes. I guess our higher ups feel some of the young guys we have and acquired actually will play. I don't know about you guys but I sense this is the year we need to give AJ a lot more time off and we have no backup catcher.

We still have all our station to station hitters.

We acquired no veteran starters so far. I didn't want Javy back but we need another starter to replace him.

 

I can stand KW standing pat in our pen. On paper like Joe Morgan said, we have a good pen if those guys all do the job.

 

The question is ... can Carlos Q carry our team on his back? Paulie and Dye and Thome are getting no younger. Ditto AJ who has been great but can he be this durable forever with no backup?

 

Hopefully KW will make some moves of interest. I can hear some boos this season if we are the same Jeckyll-Hyde team we were offensively a year ago.

 

 

[caulfield12]

This isn't like 2007 because I doubt Andy Gonzalez and Wasserman will be playing starring roles.

 

If Fields and Owens didn't work out, we have multiple position player options...especially to cover for Josh. CF still remains a hole, though. No matter what, we have a lot more flexibility than in 2007 (the only bad contracts on our books are Contreras and Konerko/Thome, sort of) and our farm system has improved immensely. There was a sense at that time that we might be looking at a 3-5 year rebuilding process, and the Indians and Tigers looked very formidable going forward, to go along with the always pesky Twins. If we're anywhere close at the break, we have more financial flexibility and the minor leaguers to get almost any impact hitter or pitcher we want. That hasn't been the case for quite awhile.

 

It is interesting to ponder whether or not the White Sox would have been able to cut the budget relatively quietly had the economy not gone into tank? Or was this KW's way of simply taking advantage of the pending loss/es of Thome/Dye and eventually AJ and Konerko, one year earlier, with the getting younger/leaner/hungrier/more athletic theme juxtaposed with that a similar image for all of corporate America (like the auto manufacturers)?

 

However, Sox fans have seen the "These Kids Can Play" approach once or twice in their lifetimes, and it only works once with most diehard Sox fans. KW knows this. I think the lack of movement (and there's still around 150 players out there, like Hudson and Roberts via trade) is all of the GM's simply waiting for the tide to flow in their direction, with players like Manny Ramirez eventually realizing the market won't be set by the remaining players...that, in fact, it will be a game of musical chairs and no players/agents will want to be left standing out in the cold. I'm especially curious to see where Cabrera does end up. I bet he and his agent are getting a bit nervous now...his situation could even go into Spring Training, when a team possibly loses their starter to injury and has to gamble on Cabrera for a one year deal.

Edited December 30, 2008 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

It really doesn't matter what the team looks like now as far as what it will look like on opening day, and maybe KW feels he has a much better chance of pulling off whatever his plan is by not being in the news. What does hurt the White Sox now is the fan who has been contemplating buying season tickets for a few years. Saying you're slashing payroll and going with young guys who have failed before doesn't sell season ticket packages. Of course if his big moves are made a month or two from now, those packages could be sold then, but you always risk that money that was going to be spent on White Sox tickets being spent on something else. Maybe the fan decides, I'll get a big plasma and home theater system instead and watch Hawk and Stone.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Dick Allen

[NorthSideSox72]

Again, the Sox are not being left behind here. Other than the Yankees, NO ONE is making huge moves. This is the nature of the market this offseason - it will be late and cheap. January should be very interesting.

 

[caulfield12]

It really doesn't matter what the team looks like now as far as what it will look like on opening day, and maybe KW feels he has a much better chance of pulling off whatever his plan is by not being in the news. What does hurt the White Sox now is the fan who has been contemplating buying season tickets for a few years. Saying you're slashing payroll and going with young guys who have failed before doesn't sell season ticket packages. Of course if his big moves are made a month or two from now, those packages could be sold then, but you always risk that money that was going to be spent on White Sox tickets being spent on something else. Maybe the fan decides, I'll get a big plasma and home theater system instead and watch Hawk and Stone.

 

 

I don't know what the traditional White Sox balance is between season ticket holders/corporate/sponsors and walk-up gate, but, with the exception of the 2006 season, I think the Sox fans are traditionally a late May through mid-September crowd and they're mostly driven by competitive baseball, and, to a lesser extent, promotions like fireworks night/s.

 

Sure, right now, the situation doesn't look very hopeful (at this precise moment), but we're much better off for having made the playoffs than had the season ended up with disappointment and resignation. Even if the fans stay home and start to watch WGN broadcasts, that's still putting revenue in the club's coffers...maybe the effects won't be so immediate. Maybe there are many fans waiting for a move to be made (something like Manny Ramirez and Dye traded, something very dramatic) like David Wells in 2001. I'm not sure. It definitely feels like a wait and see type of attitude by most of the fanbase. Hopefully, guardedly optimistic but also with the 2007 season not completely eviscerated from the memory banks either.

[caulfield12]

Again, the Sox are not being left behind here. Other than the Yankees, NO ONE is making huge moves. This is the nature of the market this offseason - it will be late and cheap. January should be very interesting.

 

 

If we signed Pettitte or Mussina (less likely) for something like $10-12 million per season, I think we'd immediately jump to co front-runners in the AL Central. Along with bringing in Manny Ramirez and moving Dye for pitching...there's almost no market for Manny right now, only the Dodgers (and they still have the almost impossible task of moving Pierre and A. Jones) and the Red Sox (that's going to happen, not!) being the teams in the best position to bring him into the fold.

 

KW would be in a great position to make a 1-2 year offer. The only problem, and it's huge, is the last time the White Sox tried this, his name was Albert Belle, and he put together one of the most statistically misleading seasons in the history of baseball.

[NorthSideSox72]

If we signed Pettitte or Mussina (less likely) for something like $10-12 million per season, I think we'd immediately jump to co front-runners in the AL Central. Along with bringing in Manny Ramirez and moving Dye for pitching...there's almost no market for Manny right now, only the Dodgers (and they still have the almost impossible task of moving Pierre and A. Jones) and the Red Sox (that's going to happen, not!) being the teams in the best position to bring him into the fold.

 

KW would be in a great position to make a 1-2 year offer. The only problem, and it's huge, is the last time the White Sox tried this, his name was Albert Belle, and he put together one of the most statistically misleading seasons in the history of baseball.

Manny will cost a lot more than Dye does, but put up only slightly better numbers (I realize that "slightly" is subjective and predictive, there is not knowing for sure). Doesn't seem like a good idea to trade Dye and sign Ramirez, at least to me anyway.

 

[southsider2k5]

If we signed Pettitte or Mussina (less likely) for something like $10-12 million per season, I think we'd immediately jump to co front-runners in the AL Central. Along with bringing in Manny Ramirez and moving Dye for pitching...there's almost no market for Manny right now, only the Dodgers (and they still have the almost impossible task of moving Pierre and A. Jones) and the Red Sox (that's going to happen, not!) being the teams in the best position to bring him into the fold.

 

KW would be in a great position to make a 1-2 year offer. The only problem, and it's huge, is the last time the White Sox tried this, his name was Albert Belle, and he put together one of the most statistically misleading seasons in the history of baseball.

 

OK I will bite. Why would either of those guys want to come to Chicago for a gigantic paycut? Both have made plenty of noise about retirement. What about here would convince them that this is better, for half of their former salaries?

[caulfield12]

OzzieWorld, lol?

 

Well, David Wells was also "coaxed" out of retirement by KW, and he was/is also a former Yankee, so perhaps stranger things have happened in the history of baseball.

 

As far as Ramirez and Dye being expected to put up similar numbers in 2009...well, I'll leave that for others to decide. It would be a huge gamble. There's no doubt about that. And I haven't even really seen the question posed to KW or Ozzie in the last 2-3 weeks, when it's become more and more obvious that no team will give him more than 2 years at $20 million plus, nor are many teams capable of dealing with "Manny Being Manny" playing on a one year deal if he's not happy with anything at all around him. However, KW and Ozzie have pretty healthy egos...I think there's a part of them that believe they could control/manage him. Whether that's true or not, I have my doubts. David Wells was a disaster from the beginning of his White Sox tenure, and Albert Belle wasn't as helpful as his statistics would indicate either.

 

It's not quite so crazy as Bonds or Sosa...I don't know, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense, if there's a team out there willing to bite on Dye for young pitching. I would be pretty surprised if KW offered Dye for Jackson to the Rays and was turned down in favor of Matt Joyce, but stranger things have happened this offseason I suppose. If that is/was the case, maybe we're overvaluing Dye a bit...or maybe overvaluing him because he's more valuable to the White Sox because of our stadium then he would be to almost any other team in baseball.

[Dick Allen]

OzzieWorld, lol?

 

Well, David Wells was also "coaxed" out of retirement by KW, and he was/is also a former Yankee, so perhaps stranger things have happened in the history of baseball.

 

As far as Ramirez and Dye being expected to put up similar numbers in 2009...well, I'll leave that for others to decide. It would be a huge gamble. There's no doubt about that. And I haven't even really seen the question posed to KW or Ozzie in the last 2-3 weeks, when it's become more and more obvious that no team will give him more than 2 years at $20 million plus, nor are many teams capable of dealing with "Manny Being Manny" playing on a one year deal if he's not happy with anything at all around him. However, KW and Ozzie have pretty healthy egos...I think there's a part of them that believe they could control/manage him. Whether that's true or not, I have my doubts. David Wells was a disaster from the beginning of his White Sox tenure, and Albert Belle wasn't as helpful as his statistics would indicate either.

 

It's not quite so crazy as Bonds or Sosa...I don't know, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense, if there's a team out there willing to bite on Dye for young pitching. I would be pretty surprised if KW offered Dye for Jackson to the Rays and was turned down in favor of Matt Joyce, but stranger things have happened this offseason I suppose. If that is/was the case, maybe we're overvaluing Dye a bit...or maybe overvaluing him because he's more valuable to the White Sox because of our stadium then he would be to almost any other team in baseball.

Wells wasn't coaxed out of retirement. He was coming off a big year. He didn't do too much for the White Sox, hence his $9 million option for 2002 was declined, but KW only gave up a whole lot of garbage to get him. Wells actually started out fairly well, pitching a great game in Min. IIRC, but his back couldn't handle it and he was back with the Yankees the next season. Ozzie has been on record about Manny saying he wouldn't fit in with the White Sox. Also, there was a report from someone in Boston at the trade deadline, that Boston offerred Manny to KW for Ken Griffey Jr. hours after he acquired him. I have no idea if its true but a Boston radio station did report it. They probably have their share of Offman's as well.

[RockRaines]

Again, the Sox are not being left behind here. Other than the Yankees, NO ONE is making huge moves. This is the nature of the market this offseason - it will be late and cheap. January should be very interesting.

The basic overview of the market is alot like what happend with the Cards. Teams have made offers, waited, waited, waited, their agents say they want to look at other offers because the initial offer was lower than what they wanted, the team pulls the offer. And here we are.

[caulfield12]

Wells really came after Thomas for being a sissy and being injured (faking it) when it turned out that Thomas was legitimately hurt...I think that was the bone spur/foot/bursitis injury. Didn't he go on the local radio (he had a show for awhile) and make himself look like an A-S-?

 

The option was also declined because it looked to be a huge risk coming off the mysterious back problems/injury and with his age and weight issues.

 

They did received about $5.5 million back for the 2001 season in an insurance claim, but KW really didn't show much interest in bringing Wells back, even with "make good" contract terms.

 

Sirotka wasn't known by most in baseball to be likely to be done with his career...I can't imagine Gord Ash was so foolish as to take a picture they thought was injured. Obviously, they didn't do their 'due diligence' in that case.

[Dick Allen]

The basic overview of the market is alot like what happend with the Cards. Teams have made offers, waited, waited, waited, their agents say they want to look at other offers because the initial offer was lower than what they wanted, the team pulls the offer. And here we are.

I think all these guys are getting lowballed and no one wants to set a precedent and sign a cheaper offer. Once one or two of these guys sign for less, it will snowball.

[chunk23]

Wells really came after Thomas for being a sissy and being injured (faking it) when it turned out that Thomas was legitimately hurt...I think that was the bone spur/foot/bursitis injury. Didn't he go on the local radio (he had a show for awhile) and make himself look like an A-S-?

 

The option was also declined because it looked to be a huge risk coming off the mysterious back problems/injury and with his age and weight issues.

 

They did received about $5.5 million back for the 2001 season in an insurance claim, but KW really didn't show much interest in bringing Wells back, even with "make good" contract terms.

 

Sirotka wasn't known by most in baseball to be likely to be done with his career...I can't imagine Gord Ash was so foolish as to take a picture they thought was injured. Obviously, they didn't do their 'due diligence' in that case.

 

Wasn't Thomas's injury his tricep that time?

[G&T]

Wasn't Thomas's injury his tricep that time?

 

No it was the bone spur the size of a golf ball.

[Dick Allen]

No it was the bone spur the size of a golf ball.

His 2001 injury was the triceps.

[MO2005]

This isn't like 2007 because I doubt Andy Gonzalez and Wasserman will be playing starring roles.

 

If Fields and Owens didn't work out, we have multiple position player options...especially to cover for Josh. CF still remains a hole, though. No matter what, we have a lot more flexibility than in 2007 (the only bad contracts on our books are Contreras and Konerko/Thome, sort of) and our farm system has improved immensely. There was a sense at that time that we might be looking at a 3-5 year rebuilding process, and the Indians and Tigers looked very formidable going forward, to go along with the always pesky Twins. If we're anywhere close at the break, we have more financial flexibility and the minor leaguers to get almost any impact hitter or pitcher we want. That hasn't been the case for quite awhile.

 

It is interesting to ponder whether or not the White Sox would have been able to cut the budget relatively quietly had the economy not gone into tank? Or was this KW's way of simply taking advantage of the pending loss/es of Thome/Dye and eventually AJ and Konerko, one year earlier, with the getting younger/leaner/hungrier/more athletic theme juxtaposed with that a similar image for all of corporate America (like the auto manufacturers)?

 

However, Sox fans have seen the "These Kids Can Play" approach once or twice in their lifetimes, and it only works once with most diehard Sox fans. KW knows this. I think the lack of movement (and there's still around 150 players out there, like Hudson and Roberts via trade) is all of the GM's simply waiting for the tide to flow in their direction, with players like Manny Ramirez eventually realizing the market won't be set by the remaining players...that, in fact, it will be a game of musical chairs and no players/agents will want to be left standing out in the cold. I'm especially curious to see where Cabrera does end up. I bet he and his agent are getting a bit nervous now...his situation could even go into Spring Training, when a team possibly loses their starter to injury and has to gamble on Cabrera for a one year deal.

 

Well Lillibridge and Marquez could very well play those starring roles by the end of the season..who knows?

 

The bottom line is the These Kids Can Play era brought roughly 18-20,000 fans a game...and if we expect to make a run in a few years with that type of fanbase at the stadium, forget about it. Unfortunately we don't have a fanbase that goes to games when they are bad.

 

Let's say we average 20,000 per game next year or less, what then happens in 2009-10 offseason?

[witesoxfan]

Well Lillibridge and Marquez could very well play those starring roles by the end of the season..who knows?

 

The bottom line is the These Kids Can Play era brought roughly 18-20,000 fans a game...and if we expect to make a run in a few years with that type of fanbase at the stadium, forget about it. Unfortunately we don't have a fanbase that goes to games when they are bad.

 

The 2.6 mill that the Sox drew in 2007 WAS a pretty weak showing by our fan base, wasn't it? It really looks meager in comparison to the 2.5 mill the Sox drew in 2008...I mean, what a fantastic attendance year this past season was.

 

Do your homework before making false claims. If anything keeps fans away from the park, it'll be the economy.

 

Let's say we average 20,000 per game next year or less, what then happens in 2009-10 offseason?

 

Seeing as how attendance would have to drop by 1 million (that's 1,000,000), it's about as likely to happen as Al Capone rising from the dead.

 

Besides that, even if the craziest case scenario ever happens and they DO average less than 20,000 a game, the Sox are still losing a ton of contracts, have a ton of prospects to deal, and have the pieces and money to spend. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

I think this team is probably a .500 or so team as currently constructed, but the Sox also have some solid younger players to plug into some holes and these kinds of players can surprise. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see Fields put up an .800 OPS nor would I be surprised to see Getz put up .290/.340/.400 type line, and both would be just fine by me. It's the starting pitching I'm concerned about, and I see Williams bringing in a veteran starter or two on incentive laden deals.

[MO2005]

The 2.6 mill that the Sox drew in 2007 WAS a pretty weak showing by our fan base, wasn't it? It really looks meager in comparison to the 2.5 mill the Sox drew in 2008...I mean, what a fantastic attendance year this past season was.

 

Do your homework before making false claims. If anything keeps fans away from the park, it'll be the economy.

 

 

 

Seeing as how attendance would have to drop by 1 million (that's 1,000,000), it's about as likely to happen as Al Capone rising from the dead.

 

Besides that, even if the craziest case scenario ever happens and they DO average less than 20,000 a game, the Sox are still losing a ton of contracts, have a ton of prospects to deal, and have the pieces and money to spend. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

I think this team is probably a .500 or so team as currently constructed, but the Sox also have some solid younger players to plug into some holes and these kinds of players can surprise. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see Fields put up an .800 OPS nor would I be surprised to see Getz put up .290/.340/.400 type line, and both would be just fine by me. It's the starting pitching I'm concerned about, and I see Williams bringing in a veteran starter or two on incentive laden deals.

 

I don't recall the Kids Can Play era was in 2007? I think that was the old guys can play era...If you read through thoroughly you would notice that I didn't make a false claim, but you made false assumption that I was talking about 2007. To my understanding the Kids Can Play era was in the early 2000's and late 90's.

[YASNY]

I don't recall the Kids Can Play era was in 2007? I think that was the old guys can play era...If you read through thoroughly you would notice that I didn't make a false claim, but you made false assumption that I was talking about 2007. To my understanding the Kids Can Play era was in the early 2000's and late 90's.

 

wite's reference to 2007 was inspired by this remark, I'm sure ...

 

Unfortunately we don't have a fanbase that goes to games when they are bad.

[Hatchetman]

Our attendance can fall in a hurry. We went from 3rd in 1993 to 9th in 1995.

[RoyHobbs]

Why do you guys think Kenny didn't pull the trigger and get Willy Taveras to fill the lead off and center field void....can't argue with 68 stolen bags and a decent defensive center field

[lostfan]

Why do you guys think Kenny didn't pull the trigger and get Willy Taveras to fill the lead off and center field void....can't argue with 68 stolen bags and a decent defensive center field

Because he signed with the Reds, fortunately. And it can be argued, and it has been argued pretty much to nausea here (to the point where I just gave up on certain threads).