Rangers may go to a 4 man rotation

[Kyyle23]

Ex-Dodger Mike Marshall has a web-site where he discusses the biomechanical problems of the pitching delivery. He has a theory that pitchers should change their delivery to reduce stress on the arm. It's pretty interesting. http://www.drmikemarshall.com/BaseballPitc...ionalVideo.html

 

I don't think the 4-man rotation would work for an entire season because of the way pitchers are handled, but I do think there are points in the season where the fifth starter (or anyone who's struggling) could be skipped becasue of rainouts or some kind of scheduling quirk that would allow the 4 top guys to pitch on normal rest. You could probably get 3 or 4 more starts out of your top 4 guys and reduce the work load of the fifth starter just by periodically going to the 4-man rotation.

 

Isnt this Tom House' sworn enemy? I think I remember this guys name from some tiff that him and House had over Prior's mechanics while with the Cubs

[ptatc]

Ex-Dodger Mike Marshall has a web-site where he discusses the biomechanical problems of the pitching delivery. He has a theory that pitchers should change their delivery to reduce stress on the arm. It's pretty interesting. http://www.drmikemarshall.com/BaseballPitc...ionalVideo.html

 

I don't think the 4-man rotation would work for an entire season because of the way pitchers are handled, but I do think there are points in the season where the fifth starter (or anyone who's struggling) could be skipped becasue of rainouts or some kind of scheduling quirk that would allow the 4 top guys to pitch on normal rest. You could probably get 3 or 4 more starts out of your top 4 guys and reduce the work load of the fifth starter just by periodically going to the 4-man rotation.

 

I've studied his philosophy and I disagree that it decreases stress on the arm. I understand what he is trying to do but i don't agree.

 

[ptatc]

I've studied his philosophy and I disagree that it decreases stress on the arm. I understand what he is trying to do but i don't agree.

 

He is a qualified person to make the remarks with his research. His philosophy is drastically different than House's.

 

While agree that certain things that Houses espouses are detrimental to a pitcher, I don'y fully agree with Marshall's philosophy either. I think there is a middle ground between the two.

 

I'm not a fan of saying that everything needs to be done in a rigid way. As long as it's biomechanically sound without adding too much stress to a certainarea of the body, you should let the pitcher do what's comfortable.

 

These to philosophies are too rigid for me.

 

[EvilMonkey]

There is nothing wrong with having a righty/lefty specialist and using them to retire a key righty or lefty.

There is everything wrong with using 4 pitchers in one inning and having your worst guy all you have left in ther 11th inning because you wasted pitchers 5,6 and 7 one one batter each.

[whitesoxfan101]

4 man rotation? What a great idea! I'm sure this will work out great, and nobody will get injured.

[scenario]

Could be a banner year for Dr. James Andrews.

 

Might even set up a satellite office in Texas.

 

 

[SouthsideDon48]

It might actually work, if they did two things:

 

1. Prevent the starters in the 4-man rotation from pitching more than 5 or 6 innings per game.

 

and

 

2. Have 2 long-relievers in the bullpen that can be rotated and be fresh enough to 2 or 3 innings every game to keep the late-inning relievers such as the set-up men and closer fresh.

 

I think that's key: two long relievers and preventing the starters from throwing complete games.

[The Critic]

It might actually work, if they did two things:

 

1. Prevent the starters in the 4-man rotation from pitching more than 5 or 6 innings per game.

 

and

 

2. Have 2 long-relievers in the bullpen that can be rotated and be fresh enough to 2 or 3 innings every game to keep the late-inning relievers such as the set-up men and closer fresh.

 

I think that's key: two long relievers and preventing the starters from throwing complete games.

Ryan also wants more complete games, and fewer relievers used in games.

It's an ambitious goal Ryan has, but I don't see it working. Guys are going to get hurt.

[BearSox]

Ryan is right, pitchers are babied in today's game. It's funny how people assume because you throw more innings or pitches in an outing your arm is going to fall off. That's a load of bull. Pitchers get injured because of poor mechanics and stuff like that, not because of fatigue. Everyone always says Kerry Wood's injury problems lead back to his high school days where he pitched an "abnormal" amount. But that's completely BS. Anyone who throws across their body with the type of velocity he has is going to have injury problems. Perhaps the injury happened a year or two sooner then it could have because of all the work he got in HS, but it was inevitable none-the-less.

 

Also, if the Ranges do shift to a 4 man rotation, they'd be wise to sign Jon Garland. He could do wonders in a 4 man rotation.

[SoxFan562004]

Ryan is right, pitchers are babied in today's game. It's funny how people assume because you throw more innings or pitches in an outing your arm is going to fall off. That's a load of bull. Pitchers get injured because of poor mechanics and stuff like that, not because of fatigue. Everyone always says Kerry Wood's injury problems lead back to his high school days where he pitched an "abnormal" amount. But that's completely BS. Anyone who throws across their body with the type of velocity he has is going to have injury problems. Perhaps the injury happened a year or two sooner then it could have because of all the work he got in HS, but it was inevitable none-the-less.

 

Also, if the Ranges do shift to a 4 man rotation, they'd be wise to sign Jon Garland. He could do wonders in a 4 man rotation.

I tend to agree with you and as stupid and simplistic it may seem I think a lot of it comes down to genetics. For the most part you are going to get hurt or you aren't. Of course some of the crazy poor whiplike mechanics have something to do with it, but I look at a player like Zambrano. The guy has started at least 30 games the last 7 years. Javy is another example of a guy who just goes out there year after year and throws 30 games and gives you either 200+ or close to it, year after year (Since 2000 he's made 30 starts and thrown over 200 in 8 of those.) On the flipside there's a guy like Harden who just can't stay healthy. I believe I saw a stat that this season was the first time he made more than 10 starts in a row and then he ended up having to skip starts again.

 

Again, I'm oversimplifying it to make a point, but I just think there are guys who are horses who you can run out there and count on and others that no matter how much you baby are going to run into injury problems.

[ptatc]

Ryan is right, pitchers are babied in today's game. It's funny how people assume because you throw more innings or pitches in an outing your arm is going to fall off. That's a load of bull. Pitchers get injured because of poor mechanics and stuff like that, not because of fatigue. Everyone always says Kerry Wood's injury problems lead back to his high school days where he pitched an "abnormal" amount. But that's completely BS. Anyone who throws across their body with the type of velocity he has is going to have injury problems. Perhaps the injury happened a year or two sooner then it could have because of all the work he got in HS, but it was inevitable none-the-less.

 

Also, if the Ranges do shift to a 4 man rotation, they'd be wise to sign Jon Garland. He could do wonders in a 4 man rotation.

 

It's not a load of bull. Some pitchers can handle it and some can't. There aren't enough of the ones who can to go around.

 

Even the ones who can handle it haven't been conditioned to do it. You will need to sacrifice the next MLB season working the pitchers into condition to do it, unless you start it in the minors which he is not proposing.

 

You can't just change it, the body doesn't work that way. Believe me I've worked with enough pitchers to see the conditioning and work they do.

 

Kerry Wood's problems did begin with poor mechanics, however some pitchers canpitch with them, in my opinion Nolan Ryan was one of them. However, Wood's problems were defnitately accelerated by his high school coach with pitching him in both games of double headers.

[ptatc]

I tend to agree with you and as stupid and simplistic it may seem I think a lot of it comes down to genetics. For the most part you are going to get hurt or you aren't. Of course some of the crazy poor whiplike mechanics have something to do with it, but I look at a player like Zambrano. The guy has started at least 30 games the last 7 years. Javy is another example of a guy who just goes out there year after year and throws 30 games and gives you either 200+ or close to it, year after year (Since 2000 he's made 30 starts and thrown over 200 in 8 of those.) On the flipside there's a guy like Harden who just can't stay healthy. I believe I saw a stat that this season was the first time he made more than 10 starts in a row and then he ended up having to skip starts again.

 

Again, I'm oversimplifying it to make a point, but I just think there are guys who are horses who you can run out there and count on and others that no matter how much you baby are going to run into injury problems.

 

this has alot to do with it and I don't think there are enough to fill on the spots on all of the teams.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Rangers are loaded with stud pitching prospects. Be a shame to risk long-term injury because some old school guy wants things to go back to the way they were 30 years ago.

[BearSox]

It's not a load of bull. Some pitchers can handle it and some can't. There aren't enough of the ones who can to go around.

 

Even the ones who can handle it haven't been conditioned to do it. You will need to sacrifice the next MLB season working the pitchers into condition to do it, unless you start it in the minors which he is not proposing.

 

You can't just change it, the body doesn't work that way. Believe me I've worked with enough pitchers to see the conditioning and work they do.

 

Kerry Wood's problems did begin with poor mechanics, however some pitchers canpitch with them, in my opinion Nolan Ryan was one of them. However, Wood's problems were defnitately accelerated by his high school coach with pitching him in both games of double headers.

 

Yeah, it's not something you can do right away, but with proper conditioning and plain old not getting babied throughout your career, it should be easily done. I don't know what I was thinking though, the modern pitcher would never be able to handle this. Now you have restrictions on every level how much someone can pitch.

 

As for Kerry Wood, his injury was inevitable. It's complete bull to suggest that he could ever had pitched with them. The only way that would be possible for Wood is if he threw 50 innings a year only. Did his workload in HS accelerate the issue? Probably, but it didn't cause it.

[greg775]

I love it. Like Ryan said arms hurt anyway because it's unnatural motion to do that to

your arm.

I do think it's too late to do this, however.

Too many pitchers and fans have been conditioned to the babying of pitchers the last

many years.

So this will fail.

[Kyyle23]

Yeah, it's not something you can do right away, but with proper conditioning and plain old not getting babied throughout your career, it should be easily done. I don't know what I was thinking though, the modern pitcher would never be able to handle this. Now you have restrictions on every level how much someone can pitch.

 

As for Kerry Wood, his injury was inevitable. It's complete bull to suggest that he could ever had pitched with them. The only way that would be possible for Wood is if he threw 50 innings a year only. Did his workload in HS accelerate the issue? Probably, but it didn't cause it.

 

I love when you think your opinion trumps the years of schooling and the actual hours in the profession that ptatc has done. truly amusing reading

Edited December 26, 2008 by kyyle23

[witesoxfan]

I love when you think your opinion trumps the years of schooling and the actual hours in the profession that ptatc has done. truly amusing reading

 

I find that saying Kerry Wood's injuries were inevitable when ptatc said that some pitchers can pitch with poor mechanics like Wood's is pretty funny too. Wood obviously can't, but there are some pitchers who can get away with it.

[Gregory Pratt]

The problem is that Ryan was a freak of nature and now he expects everyone to be able to do what he could do. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

I love the part where the man who walked more hitters than anyone talks about how pitching in a four-man will improve control. How would he know?

 

.

 

That said, I wish we could go back to the day when pitchers paced themselves and could breeze through the centerfielder, shortstop, second baseman, and catcher, too -- when everybody was Adam Everett and Brad Ausmus -- but that isn't going to happen. Offense is easy these days: the strikezone is made for the hitters, and so are the ballparks, even the biggest in comparison to the old parks. Factor in steroids and better equipment, and it's obvious why pitchers don't pitch more. It's not because they're sissies, though some of them sure are.

[EvilMonkey]

Throw half as many warm up pitches between innings and you can get another inning or two easy. And stop letting the pitchers KNOW what count they are on and I bet they will get 20 or more pitches than usualy before they 'feel' tired.

[Leonard Zelig]

I love the part where the man who walked more hitters than anyone talks about how pitching in a four-man will improve control. How would he know?

 

You know Rickey Henderson got caught stealing more than anyone?

[Gregory Pratt]

You know Rickey Henderson got caught stealing more than anyone?

 

With an outstanding caught stealing percentage. The relevant number for a strikeout pitcher, K/BB, is lousy for Ryan (2.04 K/BB); further, he leads MLB history in wild pitches and walks.

 

They're not really comparable.

[southsider2k5]

With an outstanding caught stealing percentage. The relevant number for a strikeout pitcher, K/BB, is lousy for Ryan (2.04 K/BB); further, he leads MLB history in wild pitches and walks.

 

They're not really comparable.

 

You really discredit the latter half of his career when his walk totals were way better. This was a guy who figured it out. Looking at his year by year numbers you can see his walks per nine innings falls by about half, while his strikeouts per nine innings stay above 9.00 pretty consitantly. You can see it in his WHIP falling by about .2 from the first half of his career to the second half.

 

Besides it is narrowminded to excuse a man's knowledge just because of his career numbers on the playing field, you of all people should know that. Afterall what did Tony Larussa hit for his career? How about Kenny Williams and Mike Scioscia? Hell John Shurholtz never even played in the majors. None of that doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

[Dick Allen]

The problem with Texas going with a 4 man rotation and training their pitchers for it, is during the course of several seasons you wind up acquiring guys from other organizations who aren't accustomed to it. How many teams have a starting rotation comprised entirely of pitchers who worked their way through their system?

 

I think its a good idea, but it won't work unless the majority of teams hop on the bandwagon with Ryan.