santo=dorf Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 (edited) A few thoughts... Keep the porno age at 18. Sure, 99.9999% of all teenage boys go online and lookup "stuff", but still 18 is the right age. If you are going to say it's all right for 14-16 year olds to do you know what to themselves, then that just leads to bad things such as age of consent, etc. Not really a big deal anyway, as anyone can get it for free online. Besides, I doubt you'll see too many kids in trouble with the law (probably with their parents) for owning a playboy. Keep drinking age at 21. Drinking prior to 21 just leads to too many bad things. Granted most teenagers drink underage anyway, making it legal and more accessible for them isn't a good thing. Way too many health risks with drinking before you are completely an adult. The effects on the brain are the most important thing, IMO. As for the driving age, 16 is nice for students, but it should be 18. I know way too many who have no idea what they are doing on the road, and it doesn't help that a lot of the parents don't require their kids to drive the 50 practice hours or whatever it is to get the license. Finally, for mary jane, my biggest gripe with it is that it is a starter drug. Sure, a joint isn't bad on the body, but it could lead a person wanting to get an even stronger high, and try much more serious drugs. It's just a bad idea. If you want to smoke it, go get illegally. It'd probably cheaper for you that way anyway. No it isn't. People try cigarettes and alcohol before weed or "hard" drugs. How come they aren't considered "gateway" drugs? Oh right, they're legal and taxed on. I imagine if pot went the same way as these two people would stop calling it a gateway drug. Edited January 2, 2009 by santo=dorf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 The difference between alcohol, caffeine, and marijuana as a starter drug is where you buy it. If your starter drug is caffeine, you may move onto Bety Crocker cake mixes at your local mega-mart, or worse, $5.00 triple soy lattes at Star$s. If alcohol is your starter drug, that same "dealer" may sell you cigars, porn, or more alcohol. If marijuana is your starter drug, it opens up more and harsher illegal drugs. I don't agree with this at all. I know plenty of people who use coke to keep consuming alcohol until 6AM in the morrning. If they weren't introduced/hooked/had the vice of consuming alcohol would they use cocaine? Some of these same people also use this as a pick me up the next morning from the legal alcohol. On the otherside I know people who stopped drinking alcohol to smoke pot, and some that smoke cigarettes only after they toke up because they feel it enhances the high. The gate swings both ways I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Jan 1, 2009 -> 11:10 PM) I don't agree with this at all. I know plenty of people who use coke to keep consuming alcohol until 6AM in the morrning. If they weren't introduced/hooked/had the vice of consuming alcohol would they use cocaine? Some of these same people also use this as a pick me up the next morning from the legal alcohol. On the otherside I know people who stopped drinking alcohol to smoke pot, and some that smoke cigarettes only after they toke up because they feel it enhances the high. The gate swings both ways I guess. You missed my point. As long as marijuana is illegal, you will purchase the product from someone who usually has access to other illegal drugs. It is a gateway of sorts to those other products from a distribution and sales point of view. Just like if you buy your coffee at Starbucks, there are other products there, like lattes, for you to buy. If you are buying beer, there are other products you can buy there, once you are in the door. So by making marijuana legal, you cut off the gateway between marijuana and other illegal drugs. I understand that people who smoke pot also drink alcohol, coffee, wear clothing, read books, and watch TV. Those links are not particularly as interesting to me as the notion of where you buy and what else does that lead to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) On a related note, why the heck is industrialized hemp still illegal to grow in the U.S.? It's a fantastic crop that doesn't need pesticide and has multiple uses. Edited January 13, 2009 by BigSqwert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Jan 1, 2009 -> 11:05 PM) No it isn't. People try cigarettes and alcohol before weed or "hard" drugs. How come they aren't considered "gateway" drugs? Oh right, they're legal and taxed on. I imagine if pot went the same way as these two people would stop calling it a gateway drug. Think about what "gate" are you going through. Chemical altering substance? Then you are probably closer mentioning tobacco or alcohol, although someone else could claim a nice sugar buzz from too much Halloween candy. I believe the reference is to the "gate" you pass through from legal to illegal substances. This is generally, but not always, the first illegal drug you try. So you are correct, if pot was made legal, there would be a new "gateway" drug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Jan 13, 2009 -> 11:15 AM) You missed my point. As long as marijuana is illegal, you will purchase the product from someone who usually has access to other illegal drugs. It is a gateway of sorts to those other products from a distribution and sales point of view. Just like if you buy your coffee at Starbucks, there are other products there, like lattes, for you to buy. If you are buying beer, there are other products you can buy there, once you are in the door. So by making marijuana legal, you cut off the gateway between marijuana and other illegal drugs. I understand that people who smoke pot also drink alcohol, coffee, wear clothing, read books, and watch TV. Those links are not particularly as interesting to me as the notion of where you buy and what else does that lead to. I missed your point the first time I read it too, that's a valid point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 As a society we are always moving "the line" and then we assign some comparative value based on stuff on either side of the line. The lines will always be meandering and fuzzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Jan 13, 2009 -> 09:30 AM) The lines will always be meandering and fuzzy. Dude, are you high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 13, 2009 -> 11:50 AM) Dude, are you high? Yeah, I even ate some three year old Cheerios I found in my desk drawer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Jan 13, 2009 -> 09:57 AM) Yeah, I even ate some three year old Cheerios I found in my desk drawer It tastes like...burning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 You missed my point. As long as marijuana is illegal, you will purchase the product from someone who usually has access to other illegal drugs. It is a gateway of sorts to those other products from a distribution and sales point of view. Just like if you buy your coffee at Starbucks, there are other products there, like lattes, for you to buy. If you are buying beer, there are other products you can buy there, once you are in the door. So by making marijuana legal, you cut off the gateway between marijuana and other illegal drugs. I understand that people who smoke pot also drink alcohol, coffee, wear clothing, read books, and watch TV. Those links are not particularly as interesting to me as the notion of where you buy and what else does that lead to. That's an interesting stance, but i'm betting the "hard" drug dealers will still sell pot at a cheaper price because there won't be any taxes on it. I've talked to pot smokers and some of them have told me they would continue to buy from a dealer if it was legalized because they wouldn't be paying taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I believe the reference is to the "gate" you pass through from legal to illegal substances. This is generally, but not always, the first illegal drug you try. So you are correct, if pot was made legal, there would be a new "gateway" drug. If Bearsox felt that way, that would mean his viewpoint on pot would completely change if it was legalized. I highly doubt many people who call pot a gateway drug would be willing to change their mind if it was legal. Do you honestly think they would just wake up the next morning and say "Coke is the gateway drug of choice!" The argument is: Pot shouldn't be made legal because it is a gateway drug. Subbing in your definition: Pot shouldn't be made legal because it is an illegal drug. Not everything that is illegal is completely harmful, and everything that is legal isn't safe. I think we as human adult should be able to decide for ourselves, with proper knowledge (school education, FDA, EPA, etc..) to decide what we want to do with ourselves provided we do not directly harm others with our decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Jan 13, 2009 -> 04:50 PM) That's an interesting stance, but i'm betting the "hard" drug dealers will still sell pot at a cheaper price because there won't be any taxes on it. I've talked to pot smokers and some of them have told me they would continue to buy from a dealer if it was legalized because they wouldn't be paying taxes. Where's the black market for alcohol? There's hefty taxes on that, yet an overwhelming majority of alcohol (and cigarette, for that matter) sales are legal. Edited January 14, 2009 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Where's the black market for alcohol? There's hefty taxes on that, yet an overwhelming majority of alcohol (and cigarette, for that matter) sales are legal. Alcohol is much harder to make, the overall quality of it sucks, and it's easier to identify homebrew beer from the mainstream stuff than it would be to do with pot. It's also much dangerous to make your own alcoholic beverages than to grow your own natural pot. See the prohibition era for accidental lethal cocktails. Of course the question is begged to be asked, if home brewing beer for your own consumption is ok, what's wrong with growing pot for your own personal consumption? Alaska doesn't have a problem with it. Edited January 14, 2009 by santo=dorf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Jan 13, 2009 -> 04:55 PM) If Bearsox felt that way, that would mean his viewpoint on pot would completely change if it was legalized. I highly doubt many people who call pot a gateway drug would be willing to change their mind if it was legal. Do you honestly think they would just wake up the next morning and say "Coke is the gateway drug of choice!" The argument is: Pot shouldn't be made legal because it is a gateway drug. Subbing in your definition: Pot shouldn't be made legal because it is an illegal drug. Not everything that is illegal is completely harmful, and everything that is legal isn't safe. I think we as human adult should be able to decide for ourselves, with proper knowledge (school education, FDA, EPA, etc..) to decide what we want to do with ourselves provided we do not directly harm others with our decisions. Again, it depends on what "gate" we are passing through. My position is the gate is from legal to illegal behavior. Based on that definition, a legal drug would not be considered a "gateway" because the gate was removed. If we are discussing chemically altering our bodies, the gateway could be stretched all the way back to the first sugar buzz, etc. Would attitudes change overnight? I doubt it. Would they change over time? Absolutely. Think alcohol during and post prohibition. If I was to make any argument regarding keeping pot illegal is that there is no personal upsides to increasing marijuana usage. While I agree it is probably less harmful than alcohol, it has limited positive benefits, and those are in a very limited medical area. I do not see any value in having more stoned people around. The value becomes a financial one to society. The vast amount of resources we have placed to stop marijuana is silly. QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 13, 2009 -> 06:44 PM) Where's the black market for alcohol? All along the border. Cheaper prices and no taxes, but it is smuggling, you are suppose to declare and pay the taxes upon returning to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 My position is the gate is from legal to illegal behavior. Based on that definition, a legal drug would not be considered a "gateway" because the gate was removed. Alcohol consumption is illegal under the age of 21. Generally the first legal to illegal gate that children pass through is either cigarettes or alcohol. In my experience I have not met a marijuana user who did not attempt alcohol or cigarettes first. As to the black market for alcohol, look into moonshine and the like. The US govt just cracks down on it and stills are some what easier to find in the Appalachian Mountains than marijuana plants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 14, 2009 -> 09:52 AM) Alcohol consumption is illegal under the age of 21. Generally the first legal to illegal gate that children pass through is either cigarettes or alcohol. In my experience I have not met a marijuana user who did not attempt alcohol or cigarettes first. As to the black market for alcohol, look into moonshine and the like. The US govt just cracks down on it and stills are some what easier to find in the Appalachian Mountains than marijuana plants. The substance itself is legal. I find it amusing how many people are so concerned about pot's image.That if we somehow label it differently it will suddenly be available at the corner supermarket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) The substance itself is legal. Thats not true. The substance is only legal for certain people at certain times. When you drink under age you are breaking the law, you can not say "Well alcohol is a legal substance" because for you it is not. Legal means allowed under law, when you are under 21 alcohol is not legal substance, it is illegal to consume, it is illegal to own and it is illegal to buy (except certain circumstances like Wisconsin with a parent present.) I find it amusing how many people are so concerned about pot's image.That if we somehow label it differently it will suddenly be available at the corner supermarket. The only reason Im concerned about the image is because the image was falsely created by people like William Randolph Hearst who wanted to profit and benefit from marijuana being made illegal. It is the imagery that keeps marijuana illegal, not scientific fact. Im sure you have heard the results of The Laguardia Committee Report which was commissioned in 1944. Edited January 14, 2009 by Soxbadger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 We can split hairs and call marijuana legal because it is for a small population. You could call alcohol illegal because it is for some groups. But most people will consider alcohol legal because adults can buy it at a store. Most adults will consider marijuana illegal because most adults cannot but it at a legal store. OK, so cigarettes are the new gateway drug. What does that change? What keeps marijuana illegal is very complex and based on much more than image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 OK, so cigarettes are the new gateway drug. What does that change It just shows the impossibility of trying to fight "gateway" drugs. The focus should be on teaching children and adults the effects of drugs and why they may be harmful for certain segments of the population to take. In my personal opinion as a child I would have been much more willing to listen to real arguments about why taking drugs as a child may be harmful, instead of hearing hyperbolic statements about how take drugs 1 time will lead to the end of your life. But thats just my personal belief on how America can be more successful at keeping kids off drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Texsox @ Jan 13, 2009 -> 10:15 AM) You missed my point. As long as marijuana is illegal, you will purchase the product from someone who usually has access to other illegal drugs. It is a gateway of sorts to those other products from a distribution and sales point of view. Just like if you buy your coffee at Starbucks, there are other products there, like lattes, for you to buy. If you are buying beer, there are other products you can buy there, once you are in the door. So by making marijuana legal, you cut off the gateway between marijuana and other illegal drugs. I understand that people who smoke pot also drink alcohol, coffee, wear clothing, read books, and watch TV. Those links are not particularly as interesting to me as the notion of where you buy and what else does that lead to. What makes you think that all pot dealers have access to other drugs? That has to be one of the biggest stretches in this thread so far. Habitual marijuana users do not have an automatic desire to try cocaine, the drugs couldnt be more different. IN fact I would say 90 percent or more of the weed dealers I have known over the years had ZERO idea where to get other stuff. Once again, the "gateway" idea was mostly a governmental approach to scaring parents and children from using a very harmless drug in weed because of the "threat" of them automatically becoming heroin addicts. I'd like to know if you have any actual experience with these drugs or the culture, because your points are continually echoing those of generations past who were not very plugged in to the actual use, distribution, and effects of Marijuana. Edited January 14, 2009 by RockRaines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Texsox @ Jan 14, 2009 -> 11:37 AM) We can split hairs and call marijuana legal because it is for a small population. You could call alcohol illegal because it is for some groups. But most people will consider alcohol legal because adults can buy it at a store. Most adults will consider marijuana illegal because most adults cannot but it at a legal store. OK, so cigarettes are the new gateway drug. What does that change? What keeps marijuana illegal is very complex and based on much more than image. I'm not sure if I've said this in this thread already, but there is no such thing as a gateway drug, and if there is, it has to be alcohol. What keeps marijuana is the perpetuation of silly, nonsensical concepts and that have no basis in fact, like this one. I'm not even sure where they come from to be honest, because reality is totally different. Edited January 14, 2009 by lostfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jan 14, 2009 -> 10:54 AM) I'm not sure if I've said this in this thread already, but there is no such thing as a gateway drug, and if there is, it has to be alcohol. What keeps marijuana is the perpetuation of silly, nonsensical concepts and that have no basis in fact, like this one. I'm not even sure where they come from to be honest, because reality is totally different. Its very old fashioned to be honest. There is more evidence to "gateway genetics" than there is to anything being considered a "gateway drug." Most studies trying to prove any drug as a gateway have largely been funded by organizations that have interest in the criminalization of such drugs and are based on extremely terrible empirical studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 14, 2009 -> 10:52 AM) What makes you think that all pot dealers have access to other drugs? That has to be one of the biggest stretches in this thread so far. Habitual marijuana users do not have an automatic desire to try cocaine, the drugs couldnt be more different. IN fact I would say 90 percent or more of the weed dealers I have known over the years had ZERO idea where to get other stuff. Well you just eliminated my biggest reason to legalize it. What benefit is their to society beyond financial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Jan 14, 2009 -> 12:07 PM) Well you just eliminated my biggest reason to legalize it. What benefit is their to society beyond financial? Whose society? Ours? Less funding of criminal and terrorist organizations for the gov, for users, more controlled distribution and higher potency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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