Sox close to signing 2 pitchers??

[GREEDY]

Can you say C-O-L-L-U-S-I-O-N ?

 

These signings are hillarious.

 

2.5 Million for Mark Kotsay: No Soup For You.

 

1.5 Million Guaranteed for proven closer, Takashi Saito: No Egg Drop Soup For You.

 

2.25 Million for #5 starter Tim Redding (didn't this gig to pay like 3/26 twelve months ago?): No Soup For You.

 

5.25 Million for Jason Giambi, a MAJOR pay cut for a guy who went 32/96/.876 last year: No Soup For You.

 

Jerry Hariston Jr: You just had your best season ever w/ a .384 OBP, we will reward you with 2 Million: No Soup For You.

 

Dan Johnson, who in his last full season posted a .349 OBP and 18 HR, in a pitcher's park: 1.2 Million: IN JAPAN. DAMN!

 

To try and put it into perspective for you kiddos:

Just last season KW gave Juan Uribe a one year contract. Juan was coming off a terrible defensive year, and a whopping .284 OBP. Uribe didn't get the minimum, nor did he receive 1 Million, or 2 big ones, Juan and his three children also named Juan, received $4,500,000.00! Less than 10 months ago!

 

I wonder if the owners are flexing in an effort to try and force the Players Association into approving a ceiling, in exchange for a floor (which seemingly would help the salary of veterans like those mentioned above) in 2010? And I am not talking Extreme Home Makeover!

 

While I am not suprised to finally see the "Market Correction" that KW has predicted since I was like twelve, this certaintly seems like more than a correction. Outside of the super, duper, mega stars, it seems like salaries are down at least 50% from where they were last year. If you doubt me, take the length of these deals into consideration. Hell, Chrysler sales are only down 46%, and I just saw "PT Cruiser" was added to the endangered species list.

 

The '09 offseason is kind of like that time where you and the wifey sat down and had a serious talk over breakfast about "no more spending for awhile, we're broke". Then wouldn't you know it, on the way to work you see a sweet '79 Trans Am for sale, that was just like the one you had when you were a kid. In fact the driver's door is rusted out just like your old one. And it is dirt cheap, like this might be worth a divorce cheap, like there is never gonna be an opportunity like this ever again... but you can't pull the trigger, at least not on the same damn day that you had a talk about "no more spending".

[BearSox]

You forgot about Pat Burrell and Milton Bradley. If they were free agents last year, you'd be talking about a 4 year 60 million dollar deal for Bradley and a 5 year 70 million dollar deal for Burrell, or something along those lines.

 

Anyway, excellent post either way.

Edited January 11, 2009 by BearSox

[caulfield12]

Back to the pitching dregs...who do we have left to target for that veteran 4/5 type?

 

Ben Sheets (still probably too expensive, even on a one year deal)

Pedro Martinez (maybe)

Jason Jennings (maybe)

Oliver Perez (too expensive)

D. Lowe (too expensive, probably will get $42 million over 3 years from Braves, who are cornering pitching market)

Garland (maybe, if he falls all the way to $5-6 million)

Randy Wolf (maybe, if he falls to $5-6 million)

Freddy Garcia (has anyone seen any recent health updates? is he done in Winter Ball or not?)

Braden Looper (maybe)

Mark Mulder (worth a look by some team willing to gamble with incentive-laced deal?)

Bartolo Colon (ditto)

 

The Red Sox are making some very interesting moves....throwing lots of darts against the wall with Penny, Saito, Kotsay and Baldelli and hoping at least two of them stick. High reward, fairly low risk moves for a team with a huge budget. I don't know, but I think even if you add in Smoltz, you might have all five of those players for the same price as Tex, Burnett or CC over one season. They've definitely shifted from the JD Drew/Dice-K big price tag FA's and are looking at developing talent internally or on the cheap signings like KW and the White Sox have been famous for.

 

A couple of head scratchers...the middle infielders like Punto, Miles and Felipe Lopez signing for relatively big numbers compared to the recent deals we've seen the past week or so.

 

FWIW, Saito is coming off injury and can make up to $7 million with incentives. Redding was MEH...even most Mets' fans would rather have Pedro back and risk the upside rather than what Redding's 88 MPH "heater" will give them. Redding didn't even come close to getting a look with the White Sox a couple of years ago. Now we might be even borderline to have him in the organization as additional depth.

Edited January 11, 2009 by caulfield12

[maggsmaggs]

I would like to sign Dunn to a one-year deal at maybe $12 million. I don't think he will be able to get the long-term deal this off-season, so maybe he would sign a one-year deal. Then you can trade Dye for some pitching help. But I can guarantee you that the Sox will be making moves and while waiting is frustrating for fans, it is smart. The rest of the FAs are going to sign for cheap and KW will be able to get some good bargains.

[maggsmaggs]

The Red Sox are making some very interesting moves....throwing lots of darts against the wall with Penny, Saito, Kotsay and Baldelli and hoping at least two of them stick. High reward, fairly low risk moves for a team with a huge budget. I don't know, but I think even if you add in Smoltz, you might have all five of those players for the same price as Tex, Burnett or CC over one season. They've definitely shifted from the JD Drew/Dice-K big price tag FA's and are looking at developing talent internally or on the cheap signings like KW and the White Sox have been famous for.

 

A couple of head scratchers...the middle infielders like Punto, Miles and Felipe Lopez signing for relatively big numbers compared to the recent deals we've seen the past week or so.

While the Red Sox are a big market team with a huge payroll, they tend to spend their money smart and use a lot in the draft and in the international market. While they paid a huge contract for Dice-K, it was a worthwhile gamble because Asian pitchers are generally successful for a couple years in the Majors and he was the best over there. The best position player in Japan came to America and is a HOF player (Ichiro) so they figured the same success for the league's top pitcher. They have really smart people running that organization unlike the Yankees.

Edited January 11, 2009 by maggsmaggs

[GREEDY]

I have no problem signing any or all of the aging/damaged/veteran starting pitchers that are still available.

 

My only request is that (insert vet name here) must out-perform (insert young arm here) in Spring Training. And I do mean out-perform, if it is close I would rather see the kid get the gig.

 

The problem is that it won't shake out like this. No way in hell with Ozzie at the helm. If KW signs someone like Colon, Livan or Pedro, the only way they don't take the ball in April is if they are downright awful this spring, or if Herb Schneider accidentally mistakes a digit on a throwing hand, for a chicken fry.

 

If adding a mid level to top tier starter is out of the question for '09, I would just assume have Richard, Marquez, Poreda, Broadway and even Carrasco (I bet you a churro he is in the mix) battle in ST for the rotation spots. If the Sox are indeed in the hunt at the break, and the kids are not getting the job done, it shouldn't be too hard to bring in a pitcher like Randy Wolf on the cheap.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I really HOPE it's NOT Livan Hernandez. He's one of the main reasons we were able to beat the Twins last year, his presence instead of Liriano in the middle months of the season.

 

Well, then again, there's always a possibility Cabrera and Crede will be the new left side of the Twins' infield. It would just be very strange to see, especially Joe, that's for sure.

[iamshack]

I really HOPE it's NOT Livan Hernandez. He's one of the main reasons we were able to beat the Twins last year, his presence instead of Liriano in the middle months of the season.

 

Well, then again, there's always a possibility Cabrera and Crede will be the new left side of the Twins' infield. It would just be very strange to see, especially Joe, that's for sure.

 

I can't see them signing Joe considering they have that concrete playing surface....can't imagine Joe or Boras would want that either. Possibly when they open their new stadium in 10', but not this year.

[caulfield12]

Well, that's the latest rumor...the Twins don't trust his back, certainly not enough to give him guaranteed money, and that there are plenty of other concerns, namely playing half his games on turf.

 

So the NL seems a better place for Joe to re-establish himself with some big offensive numbers if he's really healthy.

[Dick Allen]

I think the Sox will eventually sign Garcia and Garland. I also think Crede will wind up in Texas. 1. Nice and hot. Easier to keep his back loose. 2.Can really pad his stats if he's healthy. Then he goes out next year and makes a little bit of money if his back holds up, which I now doubt.

[witesoxfan]

Can you say C-O-L-L-U-S-I-O-N ?

 

These signings are hillarious.

 

2.5 Million for Mark Kotsay: No Soup For You.

 

Really? Erstad got $1 mill in 2007 and I thought the Sox were paying just about perfectly. What makes Mark Kotsay worth two and a half times as much as Darin Erstad of 2007?

 

1.5 Million Guaranteed for proven closer, Takashi Saito: No Egg Drop Soup For You.

 

I wish I got 1.5 mill as a pitcher with a surgically repaired arm at the age of 39.

 

2.25 Million for #5 starter Tim Redding (didn't this gig to pay like 3/26 twelve months ago?): No Soup For You.

 

Name me one starter that got $9 mill a year whose best year came 5 years prior to him signing that deal. The best you could probably think of is Marquis, and that's a flat out lie, as his came in 2004 (a year after Redding's), he signed his deal 3 years afterwards (2 years earlier than Redding), and he's been a durable and dependable major league pitcher (something Redding has never proven). Redding's lucky to get $2+ mill after finally pitching another full major league season.

 

5.25 Million for Jason Giambi, a MAJOR pay cut for a guy who went 32/96/.876 last year: No Soup For You.

 

Full-time DH (because he costs you games with his glove), thus preventing him from signing with teams who already have a DH or use it differently, way old, way overpaid in his final season as a Yankee, and slightly overrated thanks to a short porch in RF at Yankee Stadium.

 

Jerry Hariston Jr: You just had your best season ever w/ a .384 OBP, we will reward you with 2 Million: No Soup For You.

 

not even 300 PAs, and they gave him $2 mill with nowhere to put him but LF or the bench. He's going to be 33. His career line is .260/.330/.370/.700. And he deserves more? I bet Ross Gload wishes he was a free agent after 2004.

 

Dan Johnson, who in his last full season posted a .349 OBP and 18 HR, in a pitcher's park: 1.2 Million: IN JAPAN. DAMN!

 

With a .236 average and a .767 OPS all the same. And that was a season ago. He was an underrated player, but he's getting the most and the best opportunity as a player he can.

 

To try and put it into perspective for you kiddos:

Just last season KW gave Juan Uribe a one year contract. Juan was coming off a terrible defensive year, and a whopping .284 OBP. Uribe didn't get the minimum, nor did he receive 1 Million, or 2 big ones, Juan and his three children also named Juan, received $4,500,000.00! Less than 10 months ago!

 

One of the best defensive shortstops in the game. Has the capability of playing any of the difficult infield positions at a gold glove caliber level. Always been a good situational hitter. Always had good power. The White Sox had no other options at the time period. $4.5 million is a bargain for a stopgap starting shortstop, and now he's going to struggle to get $2 million after coming off his best season since 2005.

 

 

 

To put it politely Mr. Boras/Tellum/attempting-to-be-MLB-agent, the economy is in a poor position to give out lucrative deals at any level, unless to a true superstar (which the Yankees have done), and this type of fallout has been expected for a while. The economy and price level has been in a completely downturn...here in South Dakota, gas was $4.20+ a gallon less than 7 months ago, and now it is at $1.80. That's more than a 225% drop in the price of gasoline alone, and the Dakota territories have not been hit nearly as hard by the economic crisis as many of the bigger states have been. The reason these older and mediocre players are getting "mediocre" contracts is because they are exactly that or worse going forward, and they should be happy to get what they want.

[caulfield12]

Wait a second, I want to see you defend Willie Bloomquist's contract!!!

 

Neyer had a full blog on this for some reason, it was pretty funny actually...about how the Royals have wasted $10-12 million on a bunch of players that will have a marginal impact when they could have gotten an Abreu or Dunn.

 

I think Bloomquist had something like one extra base hit all of last season? Is that possible? Or over his last 300+ AB's, or something very strange like that.

 

Glavine, Byrd, Prior, Josh Fogg, Jamey Wright, Kip Wells, Bartolo Colon, Kenny Rogers, Odalis Perez, Sidney Ponson, Jon Lieber, El Duque, Tony Armas, Jr.

 

One of the best defensive shortstops in the game. Has the capability of playing any of the difficult infield positions at a gold glove caliber level. Always been a good situational hitter. Always had good power. The White Sox had no other options at the time period. $4.5 million is a bargain for a stopgap starting shortstop, and now he's going to struggle to get $2 million after coming off his best season since 2005.

 

This has been the one sweet spot for players (except for Uribe/Grudzielanek and Eckstein so far) in this strange market....the utility/middle infielder role is being a bit OVERVALUED by some GM's.

 

Willie Bloomquist

Nick Punto

Aaron Miles

Felipe Lopez

 

Now if Juan Castro gets a $2 million dollar a year contract with a sub .600 OPS (I think that's lifetime!), then you'll have something. Or Pablo Ozuna...who is fighting a compelling battle to get the least walks in major league history with Tony Pena, Jr. for someone with 500+ career at-bats.

 

Name me one starter that got $9 mill a year whose best year came 5 years prior to him signing that deal.

Kerry Wood, Randy Johnson and Jamie Moyer are about the closest to answering that question...but each one has extenuating circumstances that are quite different from Tim Redding, who spent more time in the minors since 2004 than the majors I think.

Edited January 11, 2009 by caulfield12

[GREEDY]

Really? Erstad got $1 mill in 2007 and I thought the Sox were paying just about perfectly. What makes Mark Kotsay worth two and a half times as much as Darin Erstad of 2007?

 

 

 

I wish I got 1.5 mill as a pitcher with a surgically repaired arm at the age of 39.

 

 

 

Name me one starter that got $9 mill a year whose best year came 5 years prior to him signing that deal. The best you could probably think of is Marquis, and that's a flat out lie, as his came in 2004 (a year after Redding's), he signed his deal 3 years afterwards (2 years earlier than Redding), and he's been a durable and dependable major league pitcher (something Redding has never proven). Redding's lucky to get $2+ mill after finally pitching another full major league season.

 

 

 

Full-time DH (because he costs you games with his glove), thus preventing him from signing with teams who already have a DH or use it differently, way old, way overpaid in his final season as a Yankee, and slightly overrated thanks to a short porch in RF at Yankee Stadium.

 

 

 

not even 300 PAs, and they gave him $2 mill with nowhere to put him but LF or the bench. He's going to be 33. His career line is .260/.330/.370/.700. And he deserves more? I bet Ross Gload wishes he was a free agent after 2004.

 

 

 

With a .236 average and a .767 OPS all the same. And that was a season ago. He was an underrated player, but he's getting the most and the best opportunity as a player he can.

 

 

 

One of the best defensive shortstops in the game. Has the capability of playing any of the difficult infield positions at a gold glove caliber level. Always been a good situational hitter. Always had good power. The White Sox had no other options at the time period. $4.5 million is a bargain for a stopgap starting shortstop, and now he's going to struggle to get $2 million after coming off his best season since 2005.

 

 

 

To put it politely Mr. Boras/Tellum/attempting-to-be-MLB-agent, the economy is in a poor position to give out lucrative deals at any level, unless to a true superstar (which the Yankees have done), and this type of fallout has been expected for a while. The economy and price level has been in a completely downturn...here in South Dakota, gas was $4.20+ a gallon less than 7 months ago, and now it is at $1.80. That's more than a 225% drop in the price of gasoline alone, and the Dakota territories have not been hit nearly as hard by the economic crisis as many of the bigger states have been. The reason these older and mediocre players are getting "mediocre" contracts is because they are exactly that or worse going forward, and they should be happy to get what they want.

 

You do a fairly decent job of contradicting yourself.

 

First, you say that all of the guys I listed were either overpaid or their contract was on par.

 

Then your very next point states "the economy is in a poor position to give out lucrative deals".

 

So which is it?

 

 

I didn't pick the best deals for my argument, I choose the last five or so middle tier veterans that signed. I stick by my statement that these contracts are all down either half the mula, or they are half as long as they would have been just one offseason ago. And yes it is fairly easy to pick apart the value/ability of any aging "non superstar", good job.

 

I know this is wild conspiracy theory talk and it is very hard to defend, but I really feel the lukewarm FA market is one part slumping economy, NINE PARTS the owners posturing before s*** hits the fan in 2010.

 

I'll give you a pass on your Uribe Man-Love, but bring it up again and you are getting it

 

Love,

 

Mr. Boras/Tellum/attempting-to-be-MLB-agent

[iamshack]

You do a fairly decent job of contradicting yourself.

 

First, you say that all of the guys I listed were either overpaid or their contract was on par.

 

Then your very next point states "the economy is in a poor position to give out lucrative deals".

 

So which is it?

 

 

I didn't pick the best deals for my argument, I choose the last five or so middle tier veterans that signed. I stick by my statement that these contracts are all down either half the mula, or they are half as long as they would have been just one offseason ago. And yes it is fairly easy to pick apart the value/ability of any aging "non superstar", good job.

 

I know this is wild conspiracy theory talk and it is very hard to defend, but I really feel the lukewarm FA market is one part slumping economy, NINE PARTS the owners posturing before s*** hits the fan in 2010.

 

I'll give you a pass on your Uribe Man-Love, but bring it up again and you are getting it

 

Love,

 

Mr. Boras/Tellum/attempting-to-be-MLB-agent

 

So you are arguing collusion, seriously? So what would you argue about the offseason of 2000? Of just a few years ago? I think it's just economic reality...I'm curious to see what these owners lost in the market between October and now...

[witesoxfan]

Wait a second, I want to see you defend Willie Bloomquist's contract!!!

 

Neyer had a full blog on this for some reason, it was pretty funny actually...about how the Royals have wasted $10-12 million on a bunch of players that will have a marginal impact when they could have gotten an Abreu or Dunn.

 

I think Bloomquist had something like one extra base hit all of last season? Is that possible? Or over his last 300+ AB's, or something very strange like that.

 

LOL, the Bloomquist love dates back to an inside joke that few only a few will even get. In real life (because the joke came from an OOTP league) he's f'ing terrible.

 

Anyways, 1 XBH last season in almost 200 PAs. 6 XBHs in his past 400 PAs. He makes Jerry Owens look like a power hitter.

 

The only justification for a contract like that is merely that the Royals really honestly do like to give out bad contracts. Atleast Tony Pena Jr shouldn't be back.

 

 

One of the best defensive shortstops in the game. Has the capability of playing any of the difficult infield positions at a gold glove caliber level. Always been a good situational hitter. Always had good power. The White Sox had no other options at the time period. $4.5 million is a bargain for a stopgap starting shortstop, and now he's going to struggle to get $2 million after coming off his best season since 2005.

 

This has been the one sweet spot for players (except for Uribe/Grudzielanek and Eckstein so far) in this strange market....the utility/middle infielder role is being a bit OVERVALUED by some GM's.

 

Willie Bloomquist

Nick Punto

Aaron Miles

Felipe Lopez

 

We'll see though. All of those guys hit for a good batting average (in Lopez's case, it was down the stretch), and Uribe didn't. I'd probably rather have Uribe above all of them other than perhaps Punto, and he got the worst deal of them all. I'm curious to see where Uribe ends up...my guess still remains Boston.

 

Name me one starter that got $9 mill a year whose best year came 5 years prior to him signing that deal.

Kerry Wood, Randy Johnson and Jamie Moyer are about the closest to answering that question...but each one has extenuating circumstances that are quite different from Tim Redding, who spent more time in the minors since 2004 than the majors I think.

 

And that's exactly my point

 

You do a fairly decent job of contradicting yourself.

 

First, you say that all of the guys I listed were either overpaid or their contract was on par.

 

Then your very next point states "the economy is in a poor position to give out lucrative deals".

 

So which is it?

 

I wasn't as clear and worded my final statement poorly...the economy has a huge effect on all of those, and besides that, the deals of the past two winters have been largely affected by the Cubs, who gave out several bad contracts in the same winter (and are still feeling the side effects from two of those).

 

All the same, most of those deals are just fine for the market that the player is in, even considering the economy, which would make their deals look like bad investments besides the fact that the minimum salary is at or is close to $400k.

 

 

I didn't pick the best deals for my argument, I choose the last five or so middle tier veterans that signed. I stick by my statement that these contracts are all down either half the mula, or they are half as long as they would have been just one offseason ago. And yes it is fairly easy to pick apart the value/ability of any aging "non superstar", good job.

 

So explain Kyle Farnsworth to me then. Please? Pretty please?

 

I know this is wild conspiracy theory talk and it is very hard to defend, but I really feel the lukewarm FA market is one part slumping economy, NINE PARTS the owners posturing before s*** hits the fan in 2010.

 

What s*** hitting the fan? Consider me confused. If you are suggesting that the economy will take a turn for the worst, than I don't consider it posturing by the owners, I consider it good investing by the owners, though some will make short-term commitments on the cheap to bring in quality players.

 

If you are suggesting that the free agent market in 2010 is going to be somewhat stronger, you also have me confused, because there really hasn't been a free agent class this strong in quite some time.

 

I'll give you a pass on your Uribe Man-Love, but bring it up again and you are getting it

 

Everything I said was pretty much true or a very strongly argued point, and you back it up with that. Congratulations.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

So you are arguing collusion, seriously? So what would you argue about the offseason of 2000? Of just a few years ago? I think it's just economic reality...I'm curious to see what these owners lost in the market between October and now...

I don't think there's any question the player's association is going to argue collusion. I would think there probably is some to some extent but they won't be able to prove it and because so many people are hurting, their cries will never go anywhere. They can talk about Broadway shows closing, but how many tickets have already been sold for MLB in 2009? Its not like their multi-year contracts with networks are going away anytime soon. The Club level at USCF found a new sponsor for 2009. I think owners are taking advantage of the situation and at least enough of them are being smart enough where the others don't have to bid against themselves. Anytime Kyle Farnsworth can get a 2 year $9 million contract, I will question if funds really are drying up.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

I don't think there's any question the player's association is going to argue collusion. I would think there probably is some to some extent but they won't be able to prove it and because so many people are hurting, their cries will never go anywhere. They can talk about Broadway shows closing, but how many tickets have already been sold for MLB in 2009? Its not like their multi-year contracts with networks are going away anytime soon. The Club level at USCF found a new sponsor for 2009. I think owners are taking advantage of the situation and at least enough of them are being smart enough where the others don't have to bid against themselves. Anytime Kyle Farnsworth can get a 2 year $9 million contract, I will question if funds really are drying up.

 

Oh, I'm not surprised the Union may argue collusion. But the Union will argue anything which could possibly net their players more money. Half of this is the Union's fault to begin with, because they ignorantly urged almost all players to decline arbitration - those players now stand to make significantly less than had they accepted. So now they're going to argue collusion.

 

I don't see anything wrong with the Owners seeking to protect themselves financially. And it is not just a matter of this year, but next year, and the year after that, etc. These contracts certainly impact more than just one season. Additionally, I think there was a trend forming anyways toward cheap, younger players with the success of the Rockies and Rays the last few years. Sure, the Owners can use the economy as an excuse, but I think that excuse will ultimately be laid out more on the fans than on the players and agents.

 

Finally, you've still got your Atlanta's, your Boston's, your Cubs as well as both NY teams out there spending....are we to believe that all teams other than these are the ones involved in the collusion?

[GREEDY]

So you are arguing collusion, seriously?

I didn't say that I wasn't crazy! It is easier to defend Blagojevich's matching track suits, than it is baseball conspiracy theories.

 

I also forgot to to mention that it is good to hear the people of South Dakota haven't been effected as much by the economic crisis.

 

In all honestly, I just was trying to make an amusing post reflecting the economic crisis baseball apparently has fallen into. I find it hard to believe that the owners are in worse shape than the auto industry (who it appears also overpaid its workers to a degree that will not longer lallow them be profitable). My thesis in college was a Walmart bashing, business ethics, ass whooping opus. Now a few years later I am kind of wondering if we should be happy that Wally World paid their employees what they could afford to give them, while still remaining an economic force? Maybe we need to stop wanting big business to play UNICEF, and let them keep the USA on top of the world. I'd bet we'd all be better for it. Before you think I am turning this into a political rant, let me say that I think this offseason might just be the MLB owners getting their employees in check so they make sure they are stil a growing, economic force.

[iamshack]

I didn't say that I wasn't crazy! It is easier to defend Blagojevich's matching track suits, than it is baseball conspiracy theories.

 

I also forgot to to mention that it is good to hear the people of South Dakota haven't been effected as much by the economic crisis.

 

In all honestly, I just was trying to make an amusing post reflecting the economic crisis baseball apparently has fallen into. I find it hard to believe that the owners are in worse shape than the auto industry (who it appears also overpaid its workers to a degree that will not longer lallow them be profitable). My thesis in college was a Walmart bashing, business ethics, ass whooping opus. Now a few years later I am kind of wondering if we should be happy that Wally World paid their employees what they could afford to give them, while still remaining an economic force? Maybe we need to stop wanting big business to play UNICEF, and let them keep the USA on top of the world. I'd bet we'd all be better for it. Before you think I am turning this into a political rant, let me say that I think this offseason might just be the MLB owners getting their employees in check so they make sure they are stil a growing, economic force.

 

See my post above.

 

Also, even though Wite is the guy in SD here, it is a fact that the economies of the Dakotas are increasing as opposed to those in almost every other state.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

See my post above.

 

Also, even though Wite is the guy in SD here, it is a fact that the economies of the Dakotas are increasing as opposed to those in almost every other state.

 

not quite the right topic to go off topic on, but a ton of it has to do with the cost of living around here. I remember hearing someone say that $40,000 here is similar to $100,000 on either coast, though that's probably not exactly right. The only thing you have to deal with here is a lack of opportunity to really advance to the absolute highest point (and at that point, you are already looking great financially) and the extreme weather.

 

anyways, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[caulfield12]

I didn't say that I wasn't crazy! It is easier to defend Blagojevich's matching track suits, than it is baseball conspiracy theories.

 

I also forgot to to mention that it is good to hear the people of South Dakota haven't been effected as much by the economic crisis.

 

In all honestly, I just was trying to make an amusing post reflecting the economic crisis baseball apparently has fallen into. I find it hard to believe that the owners are in worse shape than the auto industry (who it appears also overpaid its workers to a degree that will not longer lallow them be profitable). My thesis in college was a Walmart bashing, business ethics, ass whooping opus. Now a few years later I am kind of wondering if we should be happy that Wally World paid their employees what they could afford to give them, while still remaining an economic force? Maybe we need to stop wanting big business to play UNICEF, and let them keep the USA on top of the world. I'd bet we'd all be better for it. Before you think I am turning this into a political rant, let me say that I think this offseason might just be the MLB owners getting their employees in check so they make sure they are stil a growing, economic force.

 

 

Some interesting stuff out there today, from comparisons in today's Wall Street Journal to "Atlas Shrugged" happening in reality....to suggestions that the US should just let virtually every company and individual go bankrupt and not bail them out, essentially starting over with the clean slate (Sect. Mellon's idea in the 20's or 30's), which would be a form of bailout! (letting every individual off the hook for their debts and houses that worth a lot less than they owe, I'm sure many would love that idea) and starting overly completely with ZERO debt, as debt was not the big, prevailing issue in 1929 it is today.

 

Although I'm not sure that China and Japanese holders of American treasury notes would be a big fan of this idea.

 

 

[santo=dorf]

You do a fairly decent job of contradicting yourself.

 

First, you say that all of the guys I listed were either overpaid or their contract was on par.

 

Then your very next point states "the economy is in a poor position to give out lucrative deals".

 

So which is it?

 

 

I didn't pick the best deals for my argument, I choose the last five or so middle tier veterans that signed. I stick by my statement that these contracts are all down either half the mula, or they are half as long as they would have been just one offseason ago. And yes it is fairly easy to pick apart the value/ability of any aging "non superstar", good job.

 

I know this is wild conspiracy theory talk and it is very hard to defend, but I really feel the lukewarm FA market is one part slumping economy, NINE PARTS the owners posturing before s*** hits the fan in 2010.

 

I'll give you a pass on your Uribe Man-Love, but bring it up again and you are getting it

 

Love,

 

Mr. Boras/Tellum/attempting-to-be-MLB-agent

 

Did you also mention Baldelli is only guaranteed $100,000 more than DeWaynse Wise in his new deal?

 

[GREEDY]

So explain Kyle Farnsworth to me then. Please? Pretty please?

 

The ladies love his seashell necklace that he got at Disney World, and in turn buy season tickets in droves. C'mon, everybody knows that. 9 Million is a bargain.

 

What s*** hitting the fan? Consider me confused. If you are suggesting that the economy will take a turn for the worst, than I don't consider it posturing by the owners, I consider it good investing by the owners, though some will make short-term commitments on the cheap to bring in quality players.

 

If you are suggesting that the free agent market in 2010 is going to be somewhat stronger, you also have me confused, because there really hasn't been a free agent class this strong in quite some time.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2637615

 

The labor agreement is up after 2011 and I read negotiations will begin next offseason.

 

Everything I said was pretty much true or a very strongly argued point, and you back it up with that. Congratulations.

 

I tried to give you a pass but prepare to be torched. I am guessing this isn't the first time you have tried to defend Juan but you are going to lose. And honestly, this is a true story (delete this part if it isn't kosher):I went to a game in Tampa (not a WSox game) last year and I sat next to a middle aged white woman; and the b**** yakked the entire game. She was telling her friend about her and Juan Uribe's exploits the entire game. I couldn't believe it, of all players, Juan f***ing Uribe. Now the fact that baseball players cheat on their wives is common knowledge, but the fact that Juan's road beef was literally a forty or so year old lady, that looked like she worked as a Casheir at Caseys General Store (I imagine they have those in South Dakota) made this all the more interesting for me. The lady was maybe a four, MAYBE, on a good day.

 

Ok on to the Juan Uribe junk that actually matters: Juan sucks.

 

You like his offense? You say he is good situational hitter. You did slip situational in there, but I cannot let the words "Uribe" "Good" and "Hitter" stand in the same sentence.

 

Juan has posted a sub .300 OBP in one of the best hitting parks in baseball. And it was not a fluke, his on base percentage has been as consistently bad as Keanu Reeves movies where he isn't on an adventure.

 

In 2006 Juan Uribe was responsible for the absolute WORST offensive season by and everyday player IN WHITE SOX HISTORY. Don't you dare badmouth Ron Karkovice, he will arrest your ass. Uribe had an OBP of .257 in 463 AT-BATS. His power is spotty, existent only in the summer, and only at the Cell. Juan "in his best season" last year, hit a whopping two home runs on the road. Juan's versatility was valuable to the White Sox in '08, I will give you that (I don't just ignore points that do not help the cause), but I am not certain that this has anything to do with the $4,500,000 he received. The White Sox had two 3B ahead of him in Fields and Crede. A shortstop ahead of him in Cabrera and he was in a competition essentially with Anderson, Quentin and Alexei for the second base job. I think Kenny needed a backup infielder, Juan won a WS here and Juan got paid... because that is what happened in all of baseball, up until this offseason.

 

Juan's defense did look good to my eye in '08. Too bad it didn't correlate to +/-, as it rated him -1 at 2B, -3 at 3B, and in his last full season at SS, a -7 which was good for second to last among everyday SS. If you double Juan's 2008 numbers at both 3B and 2B he rates in the bottom quarter at both positions.

 

RZR doesn't like Juan's '08 defense either. It sets him as a tad below average at 2B and makes him the WORST third baseman outside of Melivn Mora.

 

I wonder if Hawk got us a little too excited about Juan's defense, because the numbers absolutely, positively do not live up to the hype or my memory.

 

Juan doesn't get cheated at the plate, neither home or dinner.

 

Juan is lovable, that catch was the s***, I Juanna love Juan. Too bad he sucks.

Edited January 11, 2009 by GREEDY

[caulfield12]

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/11...t-and-the-dunn/

 

Blog on the tastes of some fans for "grindy" Bloomquist types and others favoring high OBP/predictable stat machines like Dunn or JD Drew.

 

I think this article is a good mirror into the psyche of many posters here. Of course, our biggest rival is the Twins, the grinder's club if there was one (although becoming less and less)...and we've been the opposite for most of this decade offensively.

Edited January 12, 2009 by caulfield12

[lostfan]

This thread has become f***ing hilarious.

 

Carry on.