How many second basemen do we need?

[BearSox]

http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/espnr...mp;post=3822498

 

Basically, the rumor is Dye and Poreda for Michael Young. Now I don't mind Young as a player, but even trading Dye for him would be terrible, let alone Dye and Poreda. Odds are nothing comes from this and it's just another rumor, but I'd be disgusted if we give up a lot to get someone like Young.

 

This also leads to another question, what's with all these rumors for 2nd basemen? First O-Dawg, then Roberts, now Young. Call me crazy, but if we really wanted a 1-2 year stop gap at second base, why don't we just get a cheap solid vet to play 2B and possibly platoon with Getz while we wait for Beckham to develop? Why not go after someone like Grudz who'd be a perfect stop gap at 2B for a year or two? I know he'd cost a draft pick, but if we feel 2B is that big of a need (which I personally don't think it is and a Getz/Lillibride platoon would suffice), it'd be better losing that draft pick than trading a lot for either Roberts or Young, or giving more years and money to the O-Dawg.

 

Am I stupid, or does that not seem like a logical route to take?

[AWhiteSoxinNJ]

KW already called the rumor bogus.

 

Per mlbtraderumors.com

 

In an e-mail to Dave van Dyck of the Chicago Tribune, White Sox GM Kenny Williams denied that there's anything to yesterday's rumor that the White Sox are talking with the Rangers about a deal that would send Michael Young to Chicago in exchange for Jermaine Dye and Aaron Poreda.

 

Williams wrote that he "would not waste time" debunking the rumor, implying that there's nothing to it.

 

He also denied interest in former Sox starter Jon Garland, who's now a free agent

Edited January 11, 2009 by AWhiteSoxinNJ

[BearSox]

Yeah, but how many rumors has KW, or any GM for that matter, not deny? A smart GM is never gonna admit anything.

[Chisoxfn]

This would be an awful trade and another one that makes no sense. Between the Roberts and Young deal I seriously don't know which would be worse. Probably this one though.

[fathom]

Rock said this rumor would come out...and that is was bogus.

[GREEDY]

Yeah, but how many rumors has KW, or any GM for that matter, not deny? A smart GM is never gonna admit anything.

 

 

Ozzie has a Venezuelan mancrush on Michael Young.

 

Why? I have no freaking idea.

 

His defense sucks like a fat kid on a Capri Sun. There is not a single everyday shortstop that is worse defensively. Check that, DeRack JeeTAH might be worse, but at least he bent Pre-Glitter Mariah Carey over his ottoman.

 

While Young is a perennial All-Star his offensive numbers do not impress either. .317 OBP away from Rangers Ballpark from a guy with limited power? Michael Young better thank his lucky stars that he ended up in Texas, if his ass wound up in Safeco, he would have been selling insurance five years ago. Really. Seriously. He blows.

 

Grindy? Yes.

 

Worth $80,000,000 in this market? Uh-Uh Girlfriend.

 

[maggsmaggs]

Any rumor for a middle infielder I know is bogus. With all the players we have and Hudson out there, it makes no sense to trade someone valuable.

[knightni]

Ozzie has a Venezuelan mancrush on Michael Young.

 

Why? I have no freaking idea.

 

His defense sucks like a fat kid on a Capri Sun. There is not a single everyday shortstop that is worse defensively. Check that, DeRack JeeTAH might be worse, but at least he bent Pre-Glitter Mariah Carey over his ottoman.

 

While Young is a perennial All-Star his offensive numbers do not impress either. .317 OBP away from Rangers Ballpark from a guy with limited power? Michael Young better thank his lucky stars that he ended up in Texas, if his ass wound up in Safeco, he would have been selling insurance five years ago. Really. Seriously. He blows.

 

Grindy? Yes.

 

Worth $80,000,000 in this market? Uh-Uh Girlfriend.

 

Please post more.

 

[santo=dorf]

Young, multi-talented infielder and 5-time All-Star, is in the final year of a contract and will be a free agent at the end of the 2009 season.

Freakin' Levine.

[BearSox]

Ozzie has a Venezuelan mancrush on Michael Young.

 

Why? I have no freaking idea.

 

His defense sucks like a fat kid on a Capri Sun. There is not a single everyday shortstop that is worse defensively. Check that, DeRack JeeTAH might be worse, but at least he bent Pre-Glitter Mariah Carey over his ottoman.

 

While Young is a perennial All-Star his offensive numbers do not impress either. .317 OBP away from Rangers Ballpark from a guy with limited power? Michael Young better thank his lucky stars that he ended up in Texas, if his ass wound up in Safeco, he would have been selling insurance five years ago. Really. Seriously. He blows.

 

Grindy? Yes.

 

Worth $80,000,000 in this market? Uh-Uh Girlfriend.

Excellent post...

 

You remind me of Dr. Cox from scrubs.

[southsideirish71]

Freakin' Levine.

 

[kapkomet]

I'm sort of torn about this one. Michael Young does get more power from being in Arlington, but he also puts the bat on the ball. Well. You don't get 200 hits for 6 seasons in a row just out of pure luck. And not to mention, US Cellular isn't exactly a spacious ballpark.

 

His fielding is better then average, sorry to disagree with you, GREEDY. He's really a pretty damn good ball player and I think he'd do well in Chicago.

 

With all of that said, I don't think I'd like the package - and I do also agree that's a pretty stiff contract to pick up.

 

[GREEDY]

I'm sort of torn about this one. Michael Young does get more power from being in Arlington, but he also puts the bat on the ball. Well. You don't get 200 hits for 6 seasons in a row just out of pure luck. And not to mention, US Cellular isn't exactly a spacious ballpark.

 

His fielding is better then average, sorry to disagree with you, GREEDY. He's really a pretty damn good ball player and I think he'd do well in Chicago.

 

With all of that said, I don't think I'd like the package - and I do also agree that's a pretty stiff contract to pick up.

 

 

 

While defensive ability is a tad hard to measure effectively, Michael Young is definitely not average. +/- has Young ranked 28th, 32nd and 27th over the past three seasons, and that is against qualifying shortstops, making Young either the worst or second to worst for the past three years (that is as far back as James' site goes).

 

RZR is kinder to Young, especially in '08, but in '05 it rated him last. His OOZ (out of zone) play totals are near the bottom despite playing everyday.

 

Yes, "He Blows" might have been an exaggeration, but he isn't good, and Young is only getting older.

 

"Putting the bat on the ball" is easy to measure, but hard to gauge it's importance. Obviously, anyone who watched the Sox daily last year saw how horrible Swisher was, while his OBP was still somewhat respectable. So, last season definitely took a little bit of steam out of OPS being the "end all" stat in my eyes. I will give you that.

 

I have no problem with an aggressive hitter posting a high batting average and a low OBP if he hits for power. Young does not hit for power. Milton Bradley's OBP was literally 100 points higher than Young in '08 while hitting in the same conditions. That means Young, a non power hitter, was on base one time less than Bradley every 2.5 games. Bradley just signed a deal for less than half of the money that is owed to Michael Young.

 

I don't want to upset you as I read the forum often and respect your opinions, but another thing I have noticed over the years is that when someone uses the words "Pretty" "Damn" "Good" and "BallPlayer" in the same sentence... it usually also includes the word "Grinder".

 

 

 

 

 

[iamshack]

While defensive ability is a tad hard to measure effectively, Michael Young is definitely not average. +/- has Young ranked 28th, 32nd and 27th over the past three seasons, and that is against qualifying shortstops, making Young either the worst or second to worst for the past three years (that is as far back as James' site goes).

 

RZR is kinder to Young, especially in '08, but in '05 it rated him last. His OOZ (out of zone) play totals are near the bottom despite playing everyday.

 

Yes, "He Blows" might have been an exaggeration, but he isn't good, and Young is only getting older.

 

"Putting the bat on the ball" is easy to measure, but hard to gauge it's importance. Obviously, anyone who watched the Sox daily last year saw how horrible Swisher was, while his OBP was still somewhat respectable. So, last season definitely took a little bit of steam out of OPS being the "end all" stat in my eyes. I will give you that.

 

I have no problem with an aggressive hitter posting a high batting average and a low OBP if he hits for power. Young does not hit for power. Milton Bradley's OBP was literally 100 points higher than Young in '08 while hitting in the same conditions. That means Young, a non power hitter, was on base one time less than Bradley every 2.5 games. Bradley just signed a deal for less than half of the money that is owed to Michael Young.

 

I don't want to upset you as I read the forum often and respect your opinions, but another thing I have noticed over the years is that when someone uses the words "Pretty" "Damn" "Good" and "BallPlayer" in the same sentence... it usually also includes the word "Grinder".

 

Greedy,

Just curious...is it possible to measure Young's defensive metrics away from Arlington? As has been mentioned, part of the reason the hitters at Arlington benefit is because they cut the infield about as short as the greens at the US Open on Sunday. Just as it benefits their hitters because they get many more base hits that get through the infield that normally wouldn't, their infielders also have to play on that field 81 games a year. Do the metrics suggest he is better away from the Ballpark @ Arlington?

 

Again, I'm just curious...

Edited January 11, 2009 by iamshack

[santo=dorf]

Follow the dipping blue line.

[iamshack]

Follow the dipping blue line.

 

Thanks for posting that....

 

Defensive metrics?

[kapkomet]

While defensive ability is a tad hard to measure effectively, Michael Young is definitely not average. +/- has Young ranked 28th, 32nd and 27th over the past three seasons, and that is against qualifying shortstops, making Young either the worst or second to worst for the past three years (that is as far back as James' site goes).

 

RZR is kinder to Young, especially in '08, but in '05 it rated him last. His OOZ (out of zone) play totals are near the bottom despite playing everyday.

 

Yes, "He Blows" might have been an exaggeration, but he isn't good, and Young is only getting older.

 

"Putting the bat on the ball" is easy to measure, but hard to gauge it's importance. Obviously, anyone who watched the Sox daily last year saw how horrible Swisher was, while his OBP was still somewhat respectable. So, last season definitely took a little bit of steam out of OPS being the "end all" stat in my eyes. I will give you that.

 

I have no problem with an aggressive hitter posting a high batting average and a low OBP if he hits for power. Young does not hit for power. Milton Bradley's OBP was literally 100 points higher than Young in '08 while hitting in the same conditions. That means Young, a non power hitter, was on base one time less than Bradley every 2.5 games. Bradley just signed a deal for less than half of the money that is owed to Michael Young.

 

I don't want to upset you as I read the forum often and respect your opinions, but another thing I have noticed over the years is that when someone uses the words "Pretty" "Damn" "Good" and "BallPlayer" in the same sentence... it usually also includes the word "Grinder".

 

I take no offense whatsoever to your post. You bring up good points.

 

iamshack mentioned the short grass at Arlington - they have to keep it that short here... otherwise it would get too thick with all the water they have to use to keep it from burning up.

 

Anyway, I actually like Young just from watching him play over the past few years down here. It's interesting to me to see the opposition to getting him for the Sox as I have always enjoyed watching him play and thought he shows a lot of hustle in his play. But I'm talking intangibles, and some of the "tangible" evidence to not sign him is interesting.

 

Good conversation. Like I said, I'm 50-50 on this one - I could see the value, but I also respect what those of you who are opposed to this are saying.

 

 

[bighurt4life]

Say for the sake of argument that we do pull this trade off.

 

1. What do we do with Lexi, Young, Getz, Lillebridge, Nix????

2. Who plays RF for us and moving TCQ there doesn't count b/c that just opens up another hole in LF.

 

So assuming that you want to put Lexi and Young on the field everyday Lex probably at 2B and Young at SS, this = much worse middle infield defense than last season as MY is a poor fielder but you get slightly better offensive production. With those two on the infield then Getz, Lille and Nix rot on the bench or in AAA, wasted assets.

 

Maybe put MY at SS and one of the 3 stooges at 2B and Lex in CF, but, if you do this then you take away one of the positives of Lex and that is his above average production and power from middle infielder. In CF he'd be much closer to league average production. So again worse defense but this time you probably have worse offense without Lexi in the infield.

 

Finally, we don't have anyone to fill JD's sizable shoes in RF and as the 4th/5th bat in the order. Maybe Lillebridge but that would be a huge step down in offensive production from an important run-producing position.

 

Bottom line, this trade makes no sense for us as it doesn't fill any holes and actually creates another one. This isn't even taking into consideration that we'd lose Poreda. This trade makes us weaker in the short and long term.

 

[caulfield12]

You don't even have to look any farther than the remainder of Young's contract and the "global financial crisis" to know this trade was dead in the water, and before Poreda's name was even mentioned.

 

 

Abreu for 2 years, $16-18 million seems much more doable, however.

 

[beck72]

I think the question moving forward is, would the Sox want a bat like Young for DH? Seeing how he's mostly hit #2, it's not a stretch that he could move to hit leadoff. He'd most likely see most of his AB's in 2009 at 2b or SS, and be DH vs LHP [some 30-40 games]. Yet for 2010-2013, he could move to DH as Thome moves on.

 

Who knows if a deal could get done. But I could definitely see the benefit of having Young's bat in the sox lineup for a few years.

[caulfield12]

I don't think the White Sox have the luxury of having a player like Young on the roster going forward.

 

It's ONE thing if he's an everyday player in the middle of your infield, it's quite another at that salary to be putting up a .750 OPS and sitting in the dugout like Thome. Much of Young's value comes from leadership on the field and "presence," whatever the heck that is. We have to keep in mind that Thome, despite his contract, is essentially making $9 million per season, not something in the mid teens. To put it into perspective, the best starting pitcher left on the market, Derek Lowe, will be hard-pressed to get to $15 million per season. Why would a declining middle infielder whose best future position is 2B be in our plans when we have about 5 players cheaply signed for that position?

 

Michael Young OBP in away/road games over the last three years=.338

Michael Young OPS in away/road games over the least three years=.730

 

.317/.681 (OBP/OPS) in away games for 2008

.365/.769 (OBP/OPS) in away games for 2007

.332/.749 (OBP/OPS) in away games for 2006

 

The guy will be 32 1/2 on Opening Day and is one of many Soriano-esque candidates to be a huge/complete drag on his team at the end of his contract. Think Todd Helton with Young, and multiply by a factor of 5-10. The worst part is we're going into the season with a marginal pitching rotation (at this point), a rotation that just lost its best strikeout pitcher. Somehow the idea of Ramirez/Young and lots of balls being put into play (along with Fields to their right) doesn't sound like the smartest idea in the world. This move would be worse than signing Willie Bloomquist, because at least the damage to the franchise would be minimal and he'd be cleared relatively quickly from the payroll, unlike Young.

 

Charitably, about the ONLY that that would make sense is the Rangers eating about 30-40% of contract and us giving them back Dye in return. Or the Rangers eating part of the contract and getting Poreda back in return. But never, in any Twilight Zone-ish way, could it be both Dye and Poreda.

Edited January 11, 2009 by caulfield12

[GREEDY]

Thanks for posting that....

 

Defensive metrics?

 

 

Good point about the grass in Texas, but I cannot find a Home/Away defensive breakdown.

 

I have just felt very strongly about Young since Ozzie proclaimed his love for him.

 

He hits in a hitters park, doesn't hit for power, and doesn't get on base. Putting the bat on the ball has some value, but overall I have a hard time swallowing that this guy is an everyday player, let alone an All Star.

 

Defensively Young is not real good either. He has a decent arm but moves like he is in quicksand. I puked a little in my mouth when he got the gold glove this year.

 

Young is a weird kind of player: he is the kind of guy that your average fan outside of Texas hasn't heard of; Your above average fan that has a decent knowledge of the game, loves him and would even go as far as calling him underrated; and the diehard stat head losers like myself, despise him more than any other All Star.

[BearSox]

Young is a solid player, but benefits greatly by playing in Texas. He benefits from the Ballpark in Arlington because he is primarily a singles hitter, and Texas has easily the fastest grass in all of baseball, meaning a lot of grounders that defenders would normally have a play on zip on through. He is god awful at SS, and should be at 2B, but I doubt they want to see Kinsler playing any SS. If moved to 2B, which any sane team would do if they have a competent SS, he would be fine there.

 

The thing is though, because he played his whole career in easily the best hitter ballpark, he has been able to put up FANTASTIC stats at home, mediocre stats away, and when you combine the two, it seems as he's a great player. But in reality, he's a good player who's overrated by the park he plays in. I don't see why anyone should despise him as a player or think he sucks, but he certainly is overrated. And it is because of this he gets paid a ridiculous 16 million or whatever a year. But honestly though, I don't see much of a difference between him and Grudz except Grudz is older.

 

If a team needed a second baseman, and could get Young, they'd be crazy not to see him as an option, as he is a very good all around player. However, a team would be insane to want him at 16 million a year and/or give up a player like Dye for him.

[BaseballNick]

Rosenthal reports Michael Young has now requested a trade.

 

Here's the interesting part of the article:

 

The Rangers would seek a young third baseman in any trade for Young, sources said, creating the possibility of a deal with the White Sox, who could offer Josh Fields, or the Angels, who could offer Brandon Wood. The Mets and Dodgers also have expressed interest in Young this off-season.

 

The White Sox like Young, but general manager Ken Williams strongly indicated last week that he was not pursuing a trade with the Rangers, telling the Chicago Tribune in an E-mail that he "would not waste time" discussing the possibility.

 

If the White Sox acquired Young, they likely would play him at second base and follow through with their plan to move Alexei Ramirez to short. Young would fill the White Sox's need for a leadoff hitter, but Williams repeatedly has stated his desire to go with younger, more affordable players in '09.

[Chisoxfn]

Would anyone else trade young if the deal involved Dye elsewhere for prospects and the Sox acquired Young for Broadway and other prospects (maybe even in a Dye trade where we got Young and others)? I think that could be a potential deal that the club could make and YOung at 2nd base would be a pretty attractive player. Plus the Sox should have the ability to take on that sort of salary.